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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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    #1232
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    However, I am delighted because Ireland is beginning to take sexual assault more seriously.

    What’s that got to do with Jackson and Olding? They were found not guilty on all counts.


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    #1233
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Nobody I know of knew who Paddy or stuart were before the trial

    Notwithstanding i seriously doubt that (and IIRC this isnt the first time you have claimed it was so) if there was any proper justice, you and your circle could continue in your "ignorance" with regard to them.
    For someone that never heard of them though, you certainly want to see punishment fitting to their status as role models.
    Presumably we'll see you vociferously condemn the Waterford football player, who was actually convicted.


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    #1234
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,374 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Notwithstanding i seriously doubt that (and IIRC this isnt the first time you have claimed it was so) if there was any proper justice, you and your circle could continue in your "ignorance" with regard to them.
    For someone that never heard of them though, you certainly want to see punishment fitting to their status as role models.
    Presumably we'll see you vociferously condemn the Waterford football player, who was actually convicted.

    And this is the type person these noble sponsors have appeased. People who were never likely to have a clue who sponsored Ulster Rugby at all.


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    #1235
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    We could not go on the way we were. I think if men knew the true scale of rapes in Ireland, they would be very ashamed to see that it was allowed to happen for such a long time, and procedures: court, support, education were not funded or paid any attention to.

    This case has helped to highlight what needs to change

    They were found NOT GUILTY. Is that what needs to change? Is that what you’re saying? Also, the case wasn’t in this country’s justice system, so it realistically means precisely nil.


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    #1236
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    I am not happy that Stuart and Paddy were sacked because I am vindictive, would like to see them suffer, or have any anger at them personally.

    However, I am delighted because Ireland is beginning to take sexual assault more seriously.

    We could not go on the way we were. I think if men knew the true scale of rapes in Ireland, they would be very ashamed to see that it was allowed to happen for such a long time, and procedures: court, support, education were not funded or paid any attention to.

    This case has helped to highlight what needs to change

    You do know what jurisdiction this case occured?
    This didnt occur in the Republic...

    So what needs to change in Republic of Ireland?


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    #1237
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    pjohnson wrote: »
    And this is the type person these noble sponsors have appeased. People who were never likely to have a clue who sponsored Ulster Rugby at all.

    Sure look who organised the protest outside Ravenhill...


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    #1238
    racso1975
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭racso1975


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Nobody I know of knew who Paddy or stuart were before the trial

    Really? Nobody you knew of watched international rugby? Exceptionally hard to believe


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    #1239
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    racso1975 wrote: »
    Really? Nobody you knew of watched international rugby? Exceptionally hard to believe

    Id day when the Belfast Feminist Network were organising their protest, there was a lot of searching on Google maps.

    The two lads in a gibbet or their heads on a pike outside the grounds would have ticked a lot of boxes for the true fans...


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    #1240
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    What's needed is balance in general on the issues not what we've seen. I've no doubt there's women out there that have been treated badly and obviously need support but at the same time we can't have it going the other way and turning into a witch hunt.

    This is the problem with society today: A severe lack of logical thought and calm analysis in favour of the screaming looney brigade on cancer media. How are you meant to get support to fix thing's if you alienate alot of others like saying "all men are rapists" etc. That's the real problem about solving these issues to be honest: distorted views from overreliance on cancer media.


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    #1241
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,572 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Infini wrote: »
    What's needed is balance in general on the issues not what we've seen.

    When the national broadcaster (which has a remit to balance any debate) can not be bothered to set up anything but an echo chamber to discuss the issues then that is not ready to happen.


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    #1242
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    I'm glad this case is over for all the people involved.

    It has certainly sparked some serious discussions surrounding consent/culture. Following the not guilty verdict, I have seen a lot of emphasis on what the men said within their group chat, I have read about how it makes them bad roles models, disrespectful, part of a culture problem etc. etc.

    Theres one tiny piece of this aftermath thats bothering me, I think what they said in their chat is unpleasant (but it's none of my business) while people are discussing the messages these men sent, in absolute outrage, people seem to be overlooking the way women speak about each other.
    Complainant: “Good fun for a while then the girls started to get slutty." https://www.rsvplive.ie/news/irish-news/full-transcript-text-messages-sent-12283375


    I have yet to see reference to the above message, yet I recall reading the below and many other pieces of a similar nature in reference to the trial..
    It also exposes the problems of a lad culture which positions consent from a male perspective – where women are mere “sluts” to “pump”. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/03/belfast-rape-trial-damning-indictment-lad-culture


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    #1243
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Alls well that ends well then!!

    No, but as deportations go, it isn't too bad.
    Playing in the Irish public eye gives Jackson and Olding every chance to get back on the Irish team after a time. Maybe even for the World Cup squad.
    I am sure the mob will have distracted themselves with some other poor bastards career and life by then.

    *Beginning to wonder if this was all concocted by the IRFU. Such a good outcome out of a bad situation for the lads, if stories are true.

    I doubt it. It isn't like the team needed either of them let's be honest.


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    #1244
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    When the national broadcaster (which has a remit to balance any debate) can not be bothered to set up anything but an echo chamber to discuss the issues then that is not ready to happen.

    So what would you have liked them to do?

    No waffle please, just a clear spelling out of what YOU think they should have done.


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    #1245
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    222233 wrote: »

    heres one tiny piece of this aftermath thats bothering me, I think what they said in their chat is unpleasant (but it's none of my business) while people are discussing the messages these men sent, in absolute outrage, people seem to be overlooking the way women speak about each other.


    Complainant: “Good fun for a while then the girls started to get slutty."

    So what problem do you have with that text?

    Perhaps the complainant doesn't like girls who behave in a slutty manner. Have you a problem with that attitude?

    Do you think she was being dishonest? Or do you just not like the word "slutty"?

    What word would you have liked her to have used instead of "slutty"? Maybe promiscuous or flirtatious?


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    #1246
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,572 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Squatter wrote: »
    So what would you have liked them to do?

    No waffle please, just a clear spelling out of what YOU think they should have done.

    The debate around sexual assault and rape and consent has to be informed by an understanding of the failings of both sexes.
    As repeatedly pointed out, there are responsibilities for everyone in these issues.

    The influence of female role models has not even started to be addressed.

    Just imagine a parent trying to tell their daughter how to behave when the public airways and media is full to the brim of women who seem happy to be objectified and to be seen as sexual objects.

    That is just touching the tip of the iceberg of issues concerning all men and women.

    Drowned out by the anti-male feminist bullying rhetoric.


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    #1247
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Squatter wrote: »
    So what problem do you have with that text?

    Perhaps the complainant doesn't like girls who behave in a slutty manner. Have you a problem with that attitude?

    Do you think she was being dishonest? Or do you just not like the word "slutty"?

    What word would you have liked her to have used instead of "slutty"? Maybe promiscuous or flirtatious?

    i don't have a problem with her text specifically. My issue is why is it only a cultural problem when men make reference to the term "slut"?


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    #1248
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Squatter wrote: »
    So what problem do you have with that text?

    Perhaps the complainant doesn't like girls who behave in a slutty manner. Have you a problem with that attitude?

    Do you think she was being dishonest? Or do you just not like the word "slutty"?

    What word would you have liked her to have used instead of "slutty"? Maybe promiscuous or flirtatious?

    Amazing how the girls who were slutty, promiscuous or flirtatious weren't raped.


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    #1249
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    joe40 wrote: »
    Well I thought it was clear. I said "privacy is important and should be protected"
    Therefore answer is a clear and unambiguous NO to your imaginary laws.

    I thought so, but merely thought it was only fair to seek a definitive answer before pointing out to you that by saying 'No' you have shown why the argument of judging and punishing people for all or any of their private statements should always hit a brick wall in a free society. You have said it yourself -- privacy should be protected. Why do you think that is? Why do you think privacy is so important? One of the reasons we have privacy is because society recognises the fundamental importance of having a shield between our private and public lives -- that while we all tow the line in public and contribute to society, we need a safe individual place where we can retreat away from the public eye and be our flawed, imperfect selves without fear of judgement so long as we act within the law. This keeps us sane, and helps to uphold the concept of individual liberty.

    Saying 'no' also unmasks the lack of logical consistency in your viewpoint. You say that people should be judged for their statements when those statements make it out in the open, yet you do not support having any legal framework or national program which would at least ensure that it is applied fairly and equally -- and not just to people whose statements get released whether through a criminal trial, theft of a phone, or a hacking etc.

    Your views, if applied equally and fairly (as I would like to think you would surely advocate) would entail that every person on earth must forever adhere to linguistic stringency, moral perfection and political correctness in all their private utterances to family and friends. Your views, applied equally and fairly, would impose upon us an intellectual thought-police, where we are terrified of making jokes or saying anything politically incorrect, even in jest. Your views, again applied equally and fairly, would have us all eternally wear a linguistic straight-jacket in every single thing we say. Would TV shows like The Inbetweeners and comedy acts like Frankie Boyle need to be censored for all of the objectifying humour, stereotyping and dark comedy -- lest they contaminate the minds of our sons and daughters and leave them open to imitating any of the humour in jest and then being subsequently crucified at your altar of moral perfection?

    Your opinions are perfectly reasonable at face-value level, but face-value is always superficial. The deeper implications for what you are arguing however are quite simply terrifying and should, in my opinion, be resisted in a free society.


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    #1250
    upandcumming
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    I am not happy that Stuart and Paddy were sacked because I am vindictive, would like to see them suffer, or have any anger at them personally.

    However, I am delighted because Ireland is beginning to take sexual assault more seriously.

    We could not go on the way we were. I think if men knew the true scale of rapes in Ireland, they would be very ashamed to see that it was allowed to happen for such a long time, and procedures: court, support, education were not funded or paid any attention to.

    This case has helped to highlight what needs to change

    And two innocent men are sacrificed for it. No harm done though Apples?


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    #1251
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Amazing how the girls who were slutty, promiscuous or flirtatious weren't raped.

    Who was raped then? Amazing how it's not a double standard for the girl to call others at the party promiscuous/slutty, when the lads are lambasted for doing the same.


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    #1252
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Who was raped then? Amazing how it's not a double standard for the girl to call others at the party promiscuous/slutty, when the lads are lambasted for doing the same.

    My point entirely. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.


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    #1253
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,264 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Paddy will need to hope rumours of a contract with Clermont are true - apparently he spent over 500k on his expensive legal team to get off the charges.

    Given he hasn't played for 2 years it will be interesting to see how much he can command - certainly less than his previous contract.

    It will also be interesting to see whether he can ever get back to the level where he was before his disgraceful behaviour. The out-half position is as much mental as physical and he may not be ever able to shake off the shame that will follow him around for the rest of his career - they'll certainly be plenty of sledging openings for rival fans and players to draw on. Does he have the mental strength to stand up to it? Time will tell - but I doubt it. Might have been better to cut his losses and try a new career path.


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    #1254
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Calina wrote: »
    I doubt it. It isn't like the team needed either of them let's be honest.

    Jackson was 2nd choice fly half to Sexton and a clear one at that.
    Olding is an incredibly talented player....but you'd know that already right?


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    #1255
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Paddy will need to hope rumours of a contract with Clermont are true - apparently he spent over 500k on his expensive legal team to get off the charges.

    Given he hasn't played for 2 years it will be interesting to see how much he can command - certainly less than his previous contract.

    It will also be interesting to see whether he can ever get back to the level where he was before his disgraceful behaviour. The out-half position is as much mental as physical and he may not be ever able to shake off the shame that will follow him around for the rest of his career - they'll certainly be plenty of sledging openings for rival fans and players to draw on. Does he have the mental strength to stand up to it? Time will tell - but I doubt it. Might have been better to cut his losses and try a new career path.
    It's almost time to get out the popcorn for your posts. You really are DESPERATE for PJ not to have a career in rugby. How's the complaint to world rugby coming along?


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    #1256
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,374 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Paddy will need to hope rumours of a contract with Clermont are true - apparently he spent over 500k on his expensive legal team to get off the charges.

    Given he hasn't played for 2 years it will be interesting to see how much he can command - certainly less than his previous contract.

    It will also be interesting to see whether he can ever get back to the level where he was before his disgraceful behaviour. The out-half position is as much mental as physical and he may not be ever able to shake off the shame that will follow him around for the rest of his career - they'll certainly be plenty of sledging openings for rival fans and players to draw on. Does he have the mental strength to stand up to it? Time will tell - but I doubt it. Might have been better to cut his losses and try a new career path.

    Did world rugby reject your complaint?


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    #1257
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,264 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Jackson was 2nd choice fly half to Sexton and a clear one at that.
    Olding is an incredibly talented player....but you'd know that already right?

    Carbery 2nd choice with a conveyor belt of talent coming through.

    Olding was a very ordinary player actually.

    Neither will be missed internationally.


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    #1258
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Jackson heading to Clermont.
    Olding heading to Exeter.

    Brilliant, two good enough teams and still in the Irish public eye. Delighted.

    False. Nothing has been signed yet. Can't play for Ireland. Delighted.


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    #1259
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,374 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Carbery 2nd choice with a conveyor belt of talent coming through.

    Olding was a very ordinary player actually.

    Neither will be missed internationally.

    Carberry who can't get a game at 10 with Leinster due to Sexton's presence?


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    #1260
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,374 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    False. Nothing has been signed yet. Can't play for Ireland. Delighted.

    There it is again. Certainly been plenty of vocal winners from this case.


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    #1261
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Who was raped then? Amazing how it's not a double standard for the girl to call others at the party promiscuous/slutty, when the lads are lambasted for doing the same.

    Im after figuring it out.

    If men call women sluts, is evidence of toxic masculinity, and rape culture enabled by the Patriarchy. If women do it, its because the Patriarchy of toxic masculinity has infected their subconcious and theyre not actually free agents.


This discussion has been closed.
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