Men's rights on Abortion?

eviltwin wrote: »

I had my first when I was a teenager. I got the benefit of Celtic tiger level support, it's a lot less now. I had a partner and family to support me. My child is now an adult. I've never caught up with what I could have been without a child, I've been playing catch up for over twenty years

No government no matter how generous can give a struggling parent all they need. It's impossible. It's the reason I had an abortion in my 30's because I wasnt earning enough to put two kids into childcare, I would have had to give up working which would have meant I wouldn't be able to pay my mortgage, pay to send my daughter to college or have any kind of life.

Financial reasons are some of the most logical ones to have an abortion.

The 'need' for your abortion in your 30's could been avoided though. You could afford to travel for an abortion, but neither yourself or your husband could afford contraception to prevent pregnancy in the first place?

Would I be correct in saying that you in favour of abortion on demand, sorry unrestricted abortion', i.e. for any reason?

kanadams123 wrote: »

From reading through the majority of these posts it looks like pro-life campaigners are being shut down because of the opinions they wish to make, MOST of which are acceptable, valid opinions! (namely @endoftheroad and @DickSwizeler)

From what i have read on this thread the majority of pro-lifers are stating their opinion, to be told they are wrong (now the same thing goes the other way too, but not as much)
Why is it we are not allowed make an opinion without being told we are wrong?

The 8th amendment, and more specifically the abortion side of things is a clear ethical issue! Ethics is defined as whether something is right or wrong. Some people here think it is right and others think it is wrong. That is perfectly acceptable. Some people here need to get over the fact that not everyone will have the same opinion as you and that's OK. That is why we are having what is called a "vote" (or referendum) because not every single person in Ireland, is going to vote yes or vote no. Accept it.

#ProLifeCampaign #VoteNo

I think what's so frustrating for many is that a lot of Pro Lifers here are men and will never be physically able to carry a pregnancy, often don't have a clue about Birth control which in a lot of cases is the woman's responsibility yet try to tell women that the world is all ponies and roses and if you don't want an unwanted pregnancy, don't have one. The world isn't that black and white and some women might find themselves in awful situations where they can't or don't see themselves able to carry a pregnancy to term or raise a child.

The classic example from the pro-life side is the girl that got pregnant after this stupid one night fling and sees the kid as an inconvenience. They exist, not denying that but there are thousands of other situations. What about the mentally unstable girl that barely manages to cope with her own life?
What about the woman that lives in an abusive relationship, gets raped from her partner? It's common in abusive relationships that the partner tries to bind the woman to them by having a child and controls their birth control or tosses it.
What about the woman that got pregnant from a casual relationship, works in a low paying job, lives in a houseshare or crappy studio and barely gets by? She knows isn't strong enough or in the position to offer her child the life it deserves.

It is frustrating that it regularly gets dismissed that a pregnancy has an enormous impact on your body and mental health and because it's so amazing it's a total roulette. You can be the happiest person and find yourself at a pile of misery once pregnant because you're constantly sick?
In my pregnancy with my daughter, she was fully wanted, I was a mental wreck, I was sick, I had to be hospitalized because I was dehydrated, I panicked a lot. Things were completely out of my control. My previous pregnancy in comparison was fine, no problems beside a bit of morning sickness.
Pregnancy can trigger a mental breakdown or depression when you never had any problems before and the risk for it is so much higher when the pregnancy is unwanted.

And last but not least, it's even more frustrating that the 8th impacts maternity care. Scans aren't given before 12 weeks, if the embryo dies and it's not getting removed the woman can get seriously ill.
What about women that are carrying non-viable embryos that still have a heartbeat of 5 - 10 bpm? There is no miracle going to happen and magically turn them into a healthy baby. These women can't get treatment in Ireland because the non-viable fetus has the same right she has.
Women can't consent on medical treatments because busy doctors overrule them with "it's the best for the baby". This is all reality in Irish maternity hospitals.
This gets dismissed by pro-lifers over and over again.

The 8th isn't solely an abortion issue, it's a healthcare issue, it's a consent issue regarding your own care.

That's why so many pro-choice supporters are so frustrated.

givyjoe wrote: »

The 'need' for your abortion in your 30's could been avoided though. You could afford to travel for an abortion, but neither yourself or your husband could afford contraception to prevent pregnancy in the first place?

Would I be correct in saying that you in favour of abortion on demand, sorry unrestricted abortion', i.e. for any reason?

You're making a lot of assumptions there.

I was using contraception. It didn't work.

I couldn't afford it either, I borrowed the money from friends. We are just lucky to have friends who could help us out and were willing to do so.

I support abortion for those who need it. I don't need to know the reason. It's none of my business just as my decision is no ones business.

LirW wrote: »

I think what's so frustrating for many is that a lot of Pro Lifers here are men and will never be physically able to carry a pregnancy, often don't have a clue about Birth control which in a lot of cases is the woman's responsibility yet try to tell women that the world is all ponies and roses and if you don't want an unwanted pregnancy, don't have one. The world isn't that black and white and some women might find themselves in awful situations where they can't or don't see themselves able to carry a pregnancy to term or raise a child.

The classic example from the pro-life side is the girl that got pregnant after this stupid one night fling and sees the kid as an inconvenience. They exist, not denying that but there are thousands of other situations. What about the mentally unstable girl that barely manages to cope with her own life?
What about the woman that lives in an abusive relationship, gets raped from her partner? It's common in abusive relationships that the partner tries to bind the woman to them by having a child and controls their birth control or tosses it.
What about the woman that got pregnant from a casual relationship, works in a low paying job, lives in a houseshare or crappy studio and barely gets by? She knows isn't strong enough or in the position to offer her child the life it deserves.

It is frustrating that it regularly gets dismissed that a pregnancy has an enormous impact on your body and mental health and because it's so amazing it's a total roulette. You can be the happiest person and find yourself at a pile of misery once pregnant because you're constantly sick?
In my pregnancy with my daughter, she was fully wanted, I was a mental wreck, I was sick, I had to be hospitalized because I was dehydrated, I panicked a lot. Things were completely out of my control. My previous pregnancy in comparison was fine, no problems beside a bit of morning sickness.
Pregnancy can trigger a mental breakdown or depression when you never had any problems before and the risk for it is so much higher when the pregnancy is unwanted.

And last but not least, it's even more frustrating that the 8th impacts maternity care. Scans aren't given before 12 weeks, if the embryo dies and it's not getting removed the woman can get seriously ill.
What about women that are carrying non-viable embryos that still have a heartbeat of 5 - 10 bpm? There is no miracle going to happen and magically turn them into a healthy baby. These women can't get treatment in Ireland because the non-viable fetus has the same right she has.
Women can't consent on medical treatments because busy doctors overrule them with "it's the best for the baby". This is all reality in Irish maternity hospitals.
This gets dismissed by pro-lifers over and over again.

The 8th isn't solely an abortion issue, it's a healthcare issue, it's a consent issue regarding your own care.

That's why so many pro-choice supporters are so frustrated.

Ok...first of all i must admit that was a great post and it really highlights the views of the majority of pro-choice campaigners.
Tbh I agree with what you said for the most part and understand your points completely.

However, despite all of what you said, i do have a strong feelings about regarding the feotus as a human. I know technically, it isn't living, but i don't think it should be denied a chance to live, weather living or not, it is still human. The only right "it"(?) should have is the right to live, even though it is unborn. That is the main reason i am to vote NO.

I understand that your frustration comes from posts like "its unfair for women but you can't deny the right of life to a potential baby" and i am sorry if this comes across as one of these posts,
But it goes against some peoples moral (and in some cases religious) beliefs, to not consider the life of the unborn.
Also the life of the unborn does not overrule the life of the mother.
And as a final word, these facilities are available elsewhere for those who want the facility, and i am not against that. But i am proud to stand by my moral and religious beliefs!

There are perfectly acceptable points for each pro-life and pro choice. Some people will agree points from each side of the argument, but at the end of the day, they can only vote yes or no, meaning they have to choose which side they feel more strongly about!

bubblypop wrote: »

I actually have no issue with people who are completely pro life. Those people who believe that the unborn should be born, no matter what the circumstances of their conception.
I respect their opinion entirely, they believe what they believe & they are solid in their opinion.

The wishy washy people though, I don't respect their opinions. You know the ones, sometimes abortion is OK, if I believe it passes my moral judgement.
The ones where the unborn, sometimes has a right to life, sometimes doesn't?

I don't agree with either of them, but one I do respect.
However, the 8th amendment is not just about abortion. It is dangerous for women & their health. & I believe a few women disregard mens opinions because it truly is impossible for them to know how it feels. To not be in control of Your Own healthcare, to not be in charge of Your Own body because their may be a 9 week old fetus inside it.
Yes, abortion is an issue that affects men & women. But the 8th amendment just affects women. I think most men can see that it's just not acceptable.

Abortion can be dealt with by legislation, lobby your TD or attend marches, but repeal the 8th amendment.

So do you think men should shut up and listen to their female counterparts? or trust the women?

Martina1991 wrote: »

If you think abortion is required in those circumstances then you are in favour of repealing the 8th amendment.

ideally yes, but due to the plan being for abortion on demand then unfortunately i cannot support repeal.

SusieBlue wrote: »

The majority of women seeking them also already have existing children and cannot afford another.

that maybe, but it's not up to us to facilitate them having an abortion. not being able to afford another child is not a valid reason to end the life of the unborn.

bubblypop wrote: »

I actually have no issue with people who are completely pro life. Those people who believe that the unborn should be born, no matter what the circumstances of their conception.
I respect their opinion entirely, they believe what they believe & they are solid in their opinion.

The wishy washy people though, I don't respect their opinions. You know the ones, sometimes abortion is OK, if I believe it passes my moral judgement.
The ones where the unborn, sometimes has a right to life, sometimes doesn't?

I don't agree with either of them, but one I do respect.

there are certain cases where abortion must be availible because not having it availible will lead to death or permanent serious issues. i disagree that this view is wishy washy, i believe it's an understanding that sometimes it is just not practical to uphold the unborn's right to life due to serious outcomes.

end of the road wrote: »

it is not practical or viable to investigate all miscarriages. yes ideally we should stop people going abroad to kill their unborn child but practicality and legality get in the way, even if the 13th was repealed that wouldn't change. all contraception operates on the basis of trying to prevent pregnancy in the first place unlike abortion, which kills. no law is going to be 100% successful in stoping what it is implemented to stop, however the 8th is likely stopping abortions due to the expence of having to travel to britain. if it stops some abortions, it's a success. it makes abortions time consuming and expensive for those who do decide to procure an abortion in britain, meaning it is also successful.

Something my fiance pointed out:
You say that we can't stop people from travelling because it's not practical, but the 8th is still a success because it costs those who do travel time and money. But in your eyes, a foetus is the same as a toddler. If even with our laws we knew that ~4000 toddlers were being brought abroad to be killed, but it cost their parents time and money, would that still be a success to you?

Martina1991 wrote: »

How can you be in favour of abortion in certain cases but not vote for change to do it.

very easily. i'm not willing to vote for changes that will allow abortion on demand to get the changes i want.

Martina1991 wrote: »

You could vote yes to repealing the amendment and lobby the proposed legislation for abortion on request.

in theory i could, but in reality i couldn't. lets be honest, such lobbying won't make much if any difference to the proposed legislation. so therefore taking a stand and voting no is in my view the only option.

Martina1991 wrote: »

The 8th as it stands protects no one. It's a hindrance on maternity services.

agreed, hence it's unfortunate i cannot vote repeal. but the proposals go way to far for me.

Martina1991 wrote: »

If an Irish woman wants to have an abortion she will have one.

it will be illegal for her to have it in ireland however.

end of the road wrote: »

that maybe, but it's not up to us to facilitate them having an abortion. not being able to afford another child is not a valid reason to end the life of the unborn.

Ah yes, I forgot that children can be reared on fresh air and little else.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Ah yes, I forgot that children can be reared on fresh air and little else.

There are othet alternatives to consider,
such as adoption, if money is the problem......

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

That's not really a solution to the issue of being pregnant when you don't want to be though is it? A woman might to have an abortion for more than one reason.
Pregnancy is hardly a barrel of lols even for women who do want to go through with it

I was following on from these two posts, not as a genaral solution to all.


Quote: end of the road
not being able to afford another child is not a valid reason to end the life of the unborn.

Quote: SuzieBlue
Ah yes, I forgot that children can be reared on fresh air and little else.

SusieBlue wrote: »

No, adoption is not an option in this country.
In 2016 only 5 infants were adopted, as per government statistics.

Due to advancements in fertility treatments, many people choosing not to having kids, and the average family getting smaller, there is little to no appetite for adoption.

It is also an extremely long drawn out expensive process so the minority of parents that are seeking to adopt do so internationally, from countries such as Vietnam and Russia.

As well as that in order to surrender your baby, you need to declare yourself an unfit parent to social services. This means any older children you have or any future children you do have will be taken as well.

Truthfully, how many couples do you know that have adopted a newborn or a toddler, over the last 12 months? I don’t know any.

If you want to stop 4K abortions you need to find 4K willing parents to adopt these kids. And that simply isn’t realistic. So really what you’d be doing is putting an extra 4K kids into the foster care system every year.

And you can say what you want about abortion but bringing a child into the world to dump it into state care is cruel. It’s no life for a child.

Regardless none of these scenarios are helpful to a woman who will not or can not stay pregnant.

I really wish people would actually research adoption processes in this country before throwing it out as an alternative willy nilly.

Ok..that was a bad sratement by me. I did not research adoption before i posted..sorry.