Men's rights on Abortion?

12-04-2018 11:30PM

manonboard wrote: »

There is lots of talk about how it only affects poorer people who can not afford to travel.

However, I've not seen any data showing how many people this actually affects. We live in a pretty generous social welfare state, and the boat to the UK is pretty cheap. So i find it a hard to believe reason.

Does anyone have any stats on it? How many people this stops from getting an abortion or claims hinders?
I've been unable to find any showing this area.

*im not interested in believing any opinion, im asking for stats on this.

seriously? we have a generous welfare state so they should punt off to England to get the abortion?

manonboard · 12-04-2018 11:34PM

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously? we have a generous welfare state so they should punt off to England to get the abortion?

You read a statement saying i've not seen any stats.

I've no way disagreed with or agreed with any side, yet you jump to a completely inaccurate conclusion.

I asked for stats to back up a claim by a side in a debate.

givyjoe · 12-04-2018 11:35PM

bubblypop wrote: »

because contraception is 100% affective right? you do know that unwanted pregnancy occurs?
contraception fails, unless you are suggesting people only have sex for reproduction?

& to be fair an unborn child doesnt think anything.... I was an unplanned child, my father wanted abortion, my mother didnt.
if I was aborted, I wouldnt know.
we are all of us, all 3 very much pro choice.

Well lucky for you, abortion on demand wasn't possible, or you may not here. What has you being unplanned got to do with your parents being pro choice? So you're in favour of abortion on demand then? I'm clearly suggesting abortion on demand isn't granted. Fairly simple really.

givyjoe · 12-04-2018 11:36PM

manonboard wrote: »

I think it was sarcasm

Considering the posts after, you sure about that?!

manonboard · 12-04-2018 11:38PM

givyjoe wrote: »

Considering the posts after, you sure about that?!

lol i still do, but point taken!

SusieBlue · 12-04-2018 11:42PM

manonboard wrote: »

Thats a very inaccurate statement. The post was not in any way vitriolic. They have a point that you disagree with. Their post was well explained according to their own ethics, but such accusations by you present you as emotionally unreasonable.

I wasn’t speaking in the context of that post, I was speaking in the context of all his posts on the topic across maybe 5/6 currently open threads on the issue, one of which he is banned from.

Martina1991 · 12-04-2018 11:42PM

end of the road wrote:

i'm not teling a woman in crisis what's best for her though. i'm saying that unless there is an extreme circumstance such as a threat to her life or to her becoming permanently disabled, she should not have the right to take the life of her unborn child.

You are literally saying what a woman in crisis " should " do.

end of the road · 12-04-2018 11:42PM

bubblypop wrote: »

but only the unborn babies that are born into poverty? what happens once they are born?
that is not important to you, the only thing that is important to you is that they are born?
into unwanted lives.
how considerate

all supports to help raise a child, both financial and emotional, should be availible to help parents who need them. i have been clear on this a plenty and i have been clear in relation to my upmost support for the wellfare system.

12-04-2018 11:43PM

givyjoe wrote: »

Well lucky for you, abortion on demand wasn't possible, or you may not here. What has you being unplanned got to do with your parents being pro choice? So you're in favour of abortion on demand then? I'm clearly suggesting abortion on demand isn't granted. Fairly simple really.

actually, I was born in England, so yes abortion was available. & even if it wasnt, & I was aborted, I wouldnt know would I? so It wouldnt matter to me.
I am in favour of abortion when a woman requires it, to be available in this country. Seeing as how its constitutionally available to travel for one.
me, being unplanned is just an example of how women can choose what they want for themselves, & believing that all women should have the right to choose.

end of the road · 12-04-2018 11:45PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I wasn’t speaking in the context of that post, I was speaking in the context of all his posts on the topic across maybe 5/6 currently open threads on the issue, one of which he is banned from.

none of which were vitriolic as you claim.

Martina1991 wrote: »

You are literally saying what a woman in crisis " should " do.

i'm not. i'm saying she shouldn't be allowed to take the life of the unborn child in the aim of dealing with that crisis.

12-04-2018 11:47PM

end of the road wrote: »

all supports to help raise a child, both financial and emotional, should be availible to help parents who need them. i have been clear on this a plenty and i have been clear in relation to my upmost support for the wellfare system.

but that doesn't assist a woman who Does not want to be pregnant!
Your reasoning seems to be that a woman should be forced to be pregnant for 9 months, even if she is not willing.

givyjoe · 12-04-2018 11:53PM

bubblypop wrote: »

actually, I was born in England, so yes abortion was available. & even if it wasnt, & I was aborted, I wouldnt know would I? so It wouldnt matter to me.
I am in favour of abortion when a woman requires it, to be available in this country. Seeing as how its constitutionally available to travel for one.
me, being unplanned is just an example of how women can choose what they want for themselves, & believing that all women should have the right to choose.

But you were born, so... You are aware of it.

Quite obviously I'm speaking about Ireland, not the UK.

When does a woman require it? When she feels like it or when it's medically required? 'Requiring' an Abortion because of financial hardship, is a bit of a stretch.

12-04-2018 11:55PM

givyjoe wrote: »

But you were born, so... You are aware of it.

Quite obviously I'm speaking about Ireland, not the UK.

When does a woman require it? When she feels like it or when it's medically required? 'Requiring' an Abortion because of financial hardship, is a bit of a stretch.

A woman requires an abortion for a lot of different reasons, maybe read through a few threads on boards and educate yourself.
or even read the citizens assembly report, that should show you a few different reasons women might require abortions.

givyjoe · 13-04-2018 12:02AM

bubblypop wrote: »

A woman requires an abortion for a lot of different reasons, maybe read through a few threads on boards and educate yourself.
or even read the citizens assembly report, that should show you a few different reasons women might require abortions.

I specifically referenced financial difficulty, so does this fit your requirement? Try reading my post this time before you reply.

Seen as your so well educated on why it may be required, aside from medical reasons, what are examples of such requirements?

13-04-2018 12:17AM

givyjoe wrote: »

I specifically referenced financial difficulty, so does this fit your requirement? Try reading my post this time before you reply.

Seen as your so well educated on why it may be required, aside from medical reasons, what are examples of such requirements?

there are a million and one reasons why a woman needs an abortion.
all of which are hers ( & her partner if involved ) to decide.
none of which are your business.

givyjoe · 13-04-2018 12:25AM

bubblypop wrote: »

there are a million and one reasons why a woman needs an abortion.
all of which are hers ( & her partner if involved ) to decide.
none of which are your business.

None of my business? But I thought I could read about loads of reasons on threads and reports?!

But surely it IS my business and your business and everyones business? You want a referendum don't you? So basically you're saying "I want abortion on demand", why? "I'm not telling you". Priceless.

I see you're not willing to answer whether financial hardship is one of those requirements.

13-04-2018 06:13AM

givyjoe wrote: »

None of my business? But I thought I could read about loads of reasons on threads and reports?!

But surely it IS my business and your business and everyones business? You want a referendum don't you? So basically you're saying "I want abortion on demand", why? "I'm not telling you". Priceless.

I see you're not willing to answer whether financial hardship is one of those requirements.

Firstly, I had to go to bed so.....no, not ignoring.
Secondly,

It's not abortion on demand.

It's abortion without restriction.

It's allowing a woman to assess her particular set of circumstances and decide for her, if a termination is necessary. That kind of thing is not decided on a whim.

It's for the victims of rape.
It's for the women who, due to their health, can't carry a pregnancy.
It's for the women facing cancer treatment.
It's for the women in direct provision who cannot travel for a termination.
It's for the women here illegally.
It's for the women too poor to afford travel.
It's for children who are physically too immature to carry a pregnancy and give birth without severe risks to their health.
It's for the women who's pregnancy will put them at risk of increased domestic abuse.
It's for the women who's contraception failed and they are simply too poor to afford another child.
It's for the women who are miscarrying their wanted baby and have to gamble as to whether the dying heartbeat will die before sepsis happens.
Its' so that women who needs an X-ray can get one - and not just on certain days of her cycle because she's deemed to be fertile and therefore has some sort of Shrodingers pregnancy going on every month for half the month.
It's for the women at high risk of having a special needs child and she's already struggling to cope with the one she has and cares for 24/7.
It's so women can get full medical support in early pregnancy to try to maintain their pregnancy.
It's for women with fatal foetal abnormalities.
It's for continuity of maternity care including post abortion health care.

(above a quote from Neyite)

& no, it is not any of your business or my business the reason why. I don't know why you think it is?

givyjoe · 13-04-2018 08:45AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Firstly, I had to go to bed so.....no, not ignoring.
Secondly,

It's not abortion on demand.

It's abortion without restriction.

It's allowing a woman to assess her particular set of circumstances and decide for her, if a termination is necessary. That kind of thing is not decided on a whim.

It's for the victims of rape.
It's for the women who, due to their health, can't carry a pregnancy.
It's for the women facing cancer treatment.
It's for the women in direct provision who cannot travel for a termination.
It's for the women here illegally.
It's for the women too poor to afford travel.
It's for children who are physically too immature to carry a pregnancy and give birth without severe risks to their health.
It's for the women who's pregnancy will put them at risk of increased domestic abuse.
It's for the women who's contraception failed and they are simply too poor to afford another child.
It's for the women who are miscarrying their wanted baby and have to gamble as to whether the dying heartbeat will die before sepsis happens.
Its' so that women who needs an X-ray can get one - and not just on certain days of her cycle because she's deemed to be fertile and therefore has some sort of Shrodingers pregnancy going on every month for half the month.
It's for the women at high risk of having a special needs child and she's already struggling to cope with the one she has and cares for 24/7.
It's so women can get full medical support in early pregnancy to try to maintain their pregnancy.
It's for women with fatal foetal abnormalities.
It's for continuity of maternity care including post abortion health care.

(above a quote from Neyite)

& no, it is not any of your business or my business the reason why. I don't know why you think it is?

Don't have a problem with most of those bar the one relating the question I specifically asked you. Financial. That simply doesn't cut it in Ireland with the supports that are available.

13-04-2018 08:49AM

givyjoe wrote: »

Don't have a problem with most of those bar the one relating the question I specifically asked you. Financial. That simply doesn't cut it in Ireland with the supports that are available.

So you are ok with abortion unless the woman is poor.
what gives you the right to decide what is right for her & her family?

givyjoe · 13-04-2018 09:01AM

bubblypop wrote: »

So you are ok with abortion unless the woman is poor.
what gives you the right to decide what is right for her & her family?

Most of the reasons you listed are related to the direct health of the mother yes? Hence I said I don't have a problem with it.

Who says I'm deciding? But I do have a constitutional right to vote, soooo..?

You don't need to be poor for the decision to have been made for financial reasons, someone on 100k could be spending every cent of their money. My point relating to finance, is that an abortion shouldn't be coming (in my opinion) down to maintaining a lifestyle. If someone is indeed poor, with limited financial options, supports are there to help them. The help shouldn't be, let's choose the cheap option and terminate the pregnancy.

Plenty of women and men (rational ones too) don't want what you want, who are they to decide what other women can do... oh wait, that's how a democracy works.

LirW · 13-04-2018 10:44AM

The problem is though, when women are poor the risk is a lot higher that the child will end up in poverty. Some people are very well aware of that and might be in the situation where they know they can't improve their own situation in the long run.

Some women choose to not bring a child into the situation in the first place. People who have never been in the situation of being poor have no idea how much of a struggle that can be. You might have enough that you're not entitled to help but you have too little so you barely make do.

eviltwin · 13-04-2018 11:12AM

givyjoe wrote: »

Don't have a problem with most of those bar the one relating the question I specifically asked you. Financial. That simply doesn't cut it in Ireland with the supports that are available.

I had my first when I was a teenager. I got the benefit of Celtic tiger level support, it's a lot less now. I had a partner and family to support me. My child is now an adult. I've never caught up with what I could have been without a child, I've been playing catch up for over twenty years

No government no matter how generous can give a struggling parent all they need. It's impossible. It's the reason I had an abortion in my 30's because I wasnt earning enough to put two kids into childcare, I would have had to give up working which would have meant I wouldn't be able to pay my mortgage, pay to send my daughter to college or have any kind of life.

Financial reasons are some of the most logical ones to have an abortion.

LirW · 13-04-2018 11:24AM

My own mom had an abortion when I was around 9 and my sister 7. She had an affair and despite having a coil, which moved and turned in her, she got pregnant. The affair wasn't a solid relationship, she was earning little money and we were poor as it was, it was really tough.
She went up to the capital to have an abortion because she couldn't justify throwing another child into that mix of struggle and got assaulted by pro-lifers in front of the clinic on her way in.

lawred2 · 13-04-2018 11:25AM

LirW wrote: »

My own mom had an abortion when I was around 9 and my sister 7. She had an affair and despite having a coil, which moved and turned in her, she got pregnant. The affair wasn't a solid relationship, she was earning little money and we were poor as it was, it was really tough.
She went up to the capital to have an abortion because she couldn't justify throwing another child into that mix of struggle and got assaulted by pro-lifers in front of the clinic on her way in.

where?

LirW · 13-04-2018 11:26AM

To Vienna.

end of the road · 13-04-2018 02:31PM

bubblypop wrote: »

It's not abortion on demand.

It's abortion without restriction.

aka abortion on demand. why not just be honest about it. you want people to vote yes for it so don't hide from it.

bubblypop wrote: »

It's allowing a woman to assess her particular set of circumstances and decide for her, if a termination is necessary. That kind of thing is not decided on a whim.

it's allowing her to end the life of her unborn. lets be honest about it. why hide from it if you don't see a problem with it?

bubblypop wrote: »

It's for the victims of rape.
It's for the women who, due to their health, can't carry a pregnancy.
It's for the women facing cancer treatment.
It's for children who are physically too immature to carry a pregnancy and give birth without severe risks to their health.
It's for the women who are miscarrying their wanted baby and have to gamble as to whether the dying heartbeat will die before sepsis happens.
It's for women with fatal foetal abnormalities.

and many of us on the pro-life side have said that abortion will be required in those circumstances, but we don't need abortion on demand to provide abortions in those cases.

bubblypop wrote: »

It's for the women in direct provision who cannot travel for a termination.
It's for the women here illegally.

unless their life is under threat or are part of the list above, then i don't believe they require an abortion. if they are here illegally then that is between them and the immigration services. i don't believe i should vote out a constitutional amendment for people who may not be given leave to remain here.

bubblypop wrote: »

It's for the women too poor to afford travel.

It's for the women who's contraception failed and they are simply too poor to afford another child.
It's for the women at high risk of having a special needs child and she's already struggling to cope with the one she has and cares for 24/7.
It's for continuity of maternity care including post abortion health care.

they don't require abortions in my view, and i certainly would never vote for anything that would allow them to have abortions. there are other options and supports that can be implemented and they must be implemented.

bubblypop wrote: »

Its' so that women who needs an X-ray can get one - and not just on certain days of her cycle because she's deemed to be fertile and therefore has some sort of Shrodingers pregnancy going on every month for half the month.
It's so women can get full medical support in early pregnancy to try to maintain their pregnancy.
It's for the women who's pregnancy will put them at risk of increased domestic abuse.

i see no reason why those couldn't be implemented without repealing the 8th. women who are at risk from domestic abuse should be helped out of that situation, however i don't believe they require an abortion and the unborn should not lose their lives because their father is one of the dregs of society, who thinks it's okay to harm a woman.

kanadams123 · 13-04-2018 02:33PM

From reading through the majority of these posts it looks like pro-life campaigners are being shut down because of the opinions they wish to make, MOST of which are acceptable, valid opinions! (namely @endoftheroad and @DickSwizeler)

From what i have read on this thread the majority of pro-lifers are stating their opinion, to be told they are wrong (now the same thing goes the other way too, but not as much)
Why is it we are not allowed make an opinion without being told we are wrong?

The 8th amendment, and more specifically the abortion side of things is a clear ethical issue! Ethics is defined as whether something is right or wrong. Some people here think it is right and others think it is wrong. That is perfectly acceptable. Some people here need to get over the fact that not everyone will have the same opinion as you and that's OK. That is why we are having what is called a "vote" (or referendum) because not every single person in Ireland, is going to vote yes or vote no. Accept it.

#ProLifeCampaign #VoteNo

Martina1991 · 13-04-2018 03:50PM

end of the road wrote:

and many of us on the pro-life side have said that abortion will be required in those circumstances, but we don't need abortion on demand to provide abortions in those cases.

If you think abortion is required in those circumstances then you are in favour of repealing the 8th amendment.

Martina1991 · 13-04-2018 03:53PM

end of the road wrote:

they don't require abortions in my view, and i certainly would never vote for anything that would allow them to have abortions.

Then why don't so called "pro life " people campaign to repeal the 13th amendment.

If you are so against abortion you wouldn't like to see Irish women go abroad to have them.

Triceratops Ballet · 13-04-2018 03:59PM

kanadams123 wrote:

The 8th amendment, and more specifically the abortion side of things is a clear ethical issue! Ethics is defined as whether something is right or wrong. Some people here think it is right and others think it is wrong. That is perfectly acceptable. Some people here need to get over the fact that not everyone will have the same opinion as you and that's OK. That is why we are having what is called a "vote" (or referendum) because not every single person in Ireland, is going to vote yes or vote no. Accept it.

It is an ethical issue, however the 8th amendment affects all pregnant women even those who would never consider, need or want an abortion, and it is endlessly frustrating to have people constantly turn a conversation about the 8th amendment into a debate about the ethics of abortion.

I have no issue with people being opposed to abortion, I'm not personally at opposed to it.
I take great issue with women being sacrificial lambs on the altar if the anti abortion lobby. Regardless of if women want abortions or not the 8th impacts their healthcare, that's not right or fair, the attitude of "yeah we'd love to treat these women equally and with dignity and respect but..." is incredibly hypocritical

Men's rights on Abortion?

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