Why do we never see any effort to stop heroin being made?

12gauge dave · 08-04-2018 08:17PM

The only question that needs answering is if 90% of heroin is made in Afghanistan and USA have occupied Afghanistan for the last 15 years or so then how has heroin gotten in to USA?

Heroin production in Afghanistan increased every year since occupation in 2001.

mohawk · 08-04-2018 08:30PM

The war on drugs is pointless. No government can win. it is a massive waste of money criminalising it. Tax it, treat the addicts.

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

wexie · 08-04-2018 08:32PM

mohawk wrote: »

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

Bill Hicks probably

Discodog · 08-04-2018 08:39PM

Steve3452 wrote: »

Codeine can also lead to heroin they are the same type of drug large amounts of heroin addicts first started on prescription drugs like codeine.

I had a friend who was addicted to Vallium. I went with her to her first therapy session. You can imagine our shock when the therapist said that it would be far easier to get off heroine than vallium - it took her three years.

Wanderer78 · 08-04-2018 08:58PM

mohawk wrote: »

The war on drugs is pointless. No government can win. it is a massive waste of money criminalising it. Tax it, treat the addicts.

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

worth a watch:

em_cat · 08-04-2018 09:14PM

flazio wrote: »

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

There are many facets; one is that you have to get people to stop wanting it. Demand is huge from pain relief to addiction.

kumate_champ07 · 08-04-2018 09:18PM

heroin isnt the reason for homelessness

most people who are addicted to heroin and end up on the streets do so because they have had a traumatic life and are trying to escape that pain. They would have used alcohol before heroin was available. Heroin just happens to be the drug that gives them the warmest,safest feeling. Alcohol just takes the edge off. Whatever the drug choice, they are not functional members of society.

there will always be people who fall thru the cracks. The reason for high numbers today is not from drugs, its a result of corrupt/dysfunctional governments

em_cat · 08-04-2018 09:49PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

I nearly ended up severely addicted to the lot, opiates & fentyanl to antidepressants & benzodiazepines, (prescribed on discharge). I was fortunate enough to have received post traumatic psychological therapy with a super Senior Clinical Psychologist. This took place while I was learning how to walk again, but most importantly I wanted to be free of those as much as I was determined to walk again.

Do I still suffer from chronic pain? Yes, but do I need pain relief akin to heroine? No

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 02:18PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

I am not poohpoohing it. I am simply asking for correct individual discernment . OK?OK! So that we who need pain relief from codeine can use it. and yes I know there is addiction but that is not an issue with me. The blanket assumption re banning codeine is causing huge suffering and is unwise

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 02:20PM

Discodog wrote: »

I had a friend who was addicted to Vallium. I went with her to her first therapy session. You can imagine our shock when the therapist said that it would be far easier to get off heroine than vallium - it took her three years.

Took me a year. Was on 20 m at night for over a decade. A nightmare of a drug like all benzos.
The icing n the cake is that it produces the very symptoms it is meant to heal

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 02:25PM

wexie wrote: »

And...perversely enough, large amounts of people in the US that got addicted to opiates end up doing heroin once they find prescription opiates too hard to get....

And many equally did not " end up doing heroin" yet got penalised.

wexie · 09-04-2018 02:26PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The blanket assumption re banning codeine is causing huge suffering and is unwise

But it's not banned?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 09-04-2018 02:29PM

wexie wrote: »

But it's not banned?

No, it's not and there's no reason why it can't be by prescription only.

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 02:30PM

em_cat wrote: »

I nearly ended up severely addicted to the lot, opiates & fentyanl to antidepressants & benzodiazepines, (prescribed on discharge). I was fortunate enough to have received post traumatic psychological therapy with a super Senior Clinical Psychologist. This took place while I was learning how to walk again, but most importantly I wanted to be free of those as much as I was determined to walk again.

Do I still suffer from chronic pain? Yes, but do I need pain relief akin to heroine? No

Then you are lucky indeed! And I sincerely and truly hope your pain eases. And glad you had such help.

But codeine is not heroin. And it acts in a different way from eg aspirin
Someone mentioned rebound pain? That is very different from untreated pain. Trust us on that. Pain drains. It ages. Ruins all pleasure in life.

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 03:34PM

wexie wrote: »

But it's not banned?

many GPS now refuse to prescribe it and some of us cannot chop and change eg medical card folk.

So may as well be banned :rolleyes:

The OTC painkillers contain 8mg codeine and 500 gm paracetemol eg solpedeine The prescription version of solpadol/Tylex, has 30 mg codeine and 500 paracetemol

Many experts opine there is too little codeine in OTC to get you addicted and I wonder at folk saying they take a packet of solpadeine a day as they would surely be in massive paracetamol OD unless they are separating the codeine out

OTC are also costly. and you get grilled by the pharmacist..

em_cat · 09-04-2018 03:50PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Then you are lucky indeed! And I sincerely and truly hope your pain eases. And glad you had such help.

But codeine is not heroin. And it acts in a different way from eg aspirin
Someone mentioned rebound pain? That is very different from untreated pain. Trust us on that. Pain drains. It ages. Ruins all pleasure in life.

I’m old enough to understand that as well as educated enough to understand the pharmacological differences.

The point that people are putting forward is that when someone becomes heavily dependent on the relief that codeine provides, but then say it’s taken away via bans, control, and/ or regulation; the same relief often is sought in heroin & heroin can be got much easier.

Also, pain is highly misunderstood by those suffering it and those who are trained to treat it, many of the worlds top Pain Specialists have written endless case studies on this very subject.

By no means am I an expert on the subject but through my experience, one thing I truly believe is that the majority of pain is psychological and the rest is physiological. 2 years ago I would of disagreed with the above.

There is a fabulous book by the noigroup called Explain Pain which my Physio in the NRH let me borrow, it made such an impact on me that I finally got the confidence to take my first steps...

Aplogies to the OP for slightly derailing...

em_cat · 09-04-2018 04:04PM

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Sofiztikated · 09-04-2018 06:04PM

em_cat wrote: »

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Because it "works"

People are generally clueless when it comes to pain medicines. They know what works, but are unaware of the side effects, or think the side effects won't apply to them.

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 07:21PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Because it "works"

People are generally clueless when it comes to pain medicines. They know what works, but are unaware of the side effects, or think the side effects won't apply to them.

I for one am well aware of the side effects etc. After the encounter with valium I check every thing out very thoroughly and make my decisions on that . with tylex etc the small side effects i get are far less damaging than the unremitting and disabling pain without it and I know others in the same situation,

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 07:23PM

em_cat wrote: »

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Those who overuse OTC are not likely to be telling their GP . and in all my own years of pain have never been referred etc.

Sofiztikated · 09-04-2018 07:53PM

Graces7 wrote: »

I for one am well aware of the side effects etc. After the encounter with valium I check every thing out very thoroughly and make my decisions on that . with tylex etc the small side effects i get are far less damaging than the unremitting and disabling pain without it and I know others in the same situation,

To be honest, I believe you. My father was crippled with arthritis, and codeine based pain killers were the only thing that could keep it at bay.

However, it doesn't stop being habit forming, and dangerous. You seem to know a bit about it, which is grand and all, but a lot of people are clueless. And everyone says "I'm not addicted, it won't happen to me." Rehab is full of them.

Again, I'm all for personal responsibility, take whatever the **** you want, it's your body. When/If I hit old age, I'll be shoveling all sorts of chemicals into me, legal and illegal.

em_cat · 09-04-2018 08:07PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Those who overuse OTC are not likely to be telling their GP . and in all my own years of pain have never been referred etc.

Have you ever asked? Your GP isn't a mind reader. I find it so odd that people aren't more honest with their GP's.

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 08:12PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be honest, I believe you. My father was crippled with arthritis, and codeine based pain killers were the only thing that could keep it at bay.

However, it doesn't stop being habit forming, and dangerous. You seem to know a bit about it, which is grand and all, but a lot of people are clueless. And everyone says "I'm not addicted, it won't happen to me." Rehab is full of them.

Again, I'm all for personal responsibility, take whatever the **** you want, it's your body. When/If I hit old age, I'll be shoveling all sorts of chemicals into me, legal and illegal.

Please define "dangerous"?

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 08:14PM

em_cat wrote: »

Have you ever asked? Your GP isn't a mind reader. I find it so odd that people aren't more honest with their GP's.

As the pain is well under control and we know the source etc? Nothing more that can be done and that is fine. We agree on that, my GP and I .

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 08:17PM

em_cat wrote: »

I’m old enough to understand that as well as educated enough to understand the pharmacological differences.
The point that people are putting forward is that when someone becomes heavily dependent on the relief that codeine provides, but then say it’s taken away via bans, control, and/ or regulation; the same relief often is sought in heroin & heroin can be got much easier.
Also, pain is highly misunderstood by those suffering it and those who are trained to treat it, many of the worlds top Pain Specialists have written endless case studies on this very subject.
By no means am I an expert on the subject but through my experience, one thing I truly believe is that the majority of pain is psychological and the rest is physiological. 2 years ago I would of disagreed with the above.
There is a fabulous book by the noigroup called Explain Pain which my Physio in the NRH let me borrow, it made such an impact on me that I finally got the confidence to take my first steps...
Aplogies to the OP for slightly derailing...

Interesting in some ways but far from reality.

Sofiztikated · 09-04-2018 08:21PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Please define "dangerous"?

Apathy.
Low mood.
Appearing sped up or slowed down.
Poor judgment.
Constricted pupils.
Slurred speech.
Inability to pay attention and impaired memory.
Headaches.
Lightheadedness.
Sleepiness.
Constipation.
Stomach pain
Difficulty urinating.
Nausea.
Vomiting.
Weight loss.
Confusion.
Weakness.
Sudden or unexpected mood changes.
Vision problems.
Sexual side effects like:
Erectile dysfunction.
Irregular menstruation.
Lowered interest in sex.
Irregular heart rate.
Shallow or slowed breathing.
Trouble breathing.
Significantly lowers seizure threshold.

Long Term

Breathing problems during sleep, including sleep apnea.
Heart problems with an increased danger of heart attack and heart failure.
Codeine appears to pose a higher risk for experiencing adverse cardiovascular events than hydrocodone.
Nervous system problems like:
Higher pain sensitivity.
Heightened risk of falls and injury as a result of dizziness and impaired coordination.
Endocrine/hormonal-related problems such as:
Low testosterone levels.
Sexual dysfunction.
Lowered sexual interest.
Osteoporosis.
Irregular periods.
Lactation, unrelated to childbirth.
Fatigue.
Impaired immune system functioning.

So yeah, dangerous.

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 08:22PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be honest, I believe you. My father was crippled with arthritis, and codeine based pain killers were the only thing that could keep it at bay.

However, it doesn't stop being habit forming, and dangerous. You seem to know a bit about it, which is grand and all, but a lot of people are clueless. And everyone says "I'm not addicted, it won't happen to me." Rehab is full of them.

Again, I'm all for personal responsibility, take whatever the **** you want, it's your body. When/If I hit old age, I'll be shoveling all sorts of chemicals into me, legal and illegal.

For the chuckle, thank you, and I am very old... but it makes me both more careful what I take and more determined to keep gently atop of intractable pain due to incurable systemic illness so I can enjoy life, which I do . and ignore high falutin "theories"

Also I realise that "addiction" in medical terms is not what folk see as :"addiction", same as with "anorexia."

It has become an insult!

Sofiztikated · 09-04-2018 08:40PM

Graces7 wrote: »

For the chuckle, thank you, and I am very old... but it makes me both more careful what I take and more determined to keep gently atop of intractable pain due to incurable systemic illness so I can enjoy life, which I do . and ignore high falutin "theories"

Also I realise that "addiction" in medical terms is not what folk see as :"addiction", same as with "anorexia."

It has become an insult!

It's a societal thing. People take "addition" to mean "dirty junkie."

A lot more still needs to be done on getting people to know, recognise, and accept what addiction is.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 09-04-2018 08:47PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It's a societal thing. People take "addition" to mean "dirty junkie."

A lot more still needs to be done on getting people to know, recognise, and accept what addiction is.

That's the error people addicted to OTC painkillers make. They habitually take insult at being compared to junkies; when that was not the inference at all because we're talking about addiction in the medical sense.

em_cat · 09-04-2018 08:50PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Interesting in some ways but far from reality.

Your going to need to expand & support your reasoning...You are not the only person in chronic pain...

Why do we never see any effort to stop heroin being made?

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