Why do we never see any effort to stop heroin being made?

flazio

Watching the ambulance documentaries on TV and the amount of heroin addicts you see is really depressing. It got me wondering. You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.
While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight, a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

judeboy101

flazio wrote: »

Watching the ambulance documentaries on TV and the amount of heroin addicts you see is really depressing. It got me wondering. You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.
While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight, a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

No money in prevention.

Mrcaramelchoc

Build a wall.

LeBash

A huge amount is made in Afghanistan and it is one of the hard places in the world to get around. Also they don't take kindly to strangers appearing with weapons in their country and the internal politics is still tribal, so there isn't really anyone to try put pressure on to put pressure on to stop it.

It's also used in the medicines so it could always be shown to be grown for that.

Really, if we put some genuine resource into rehabilitation and prevention, we could squeeze it into tiny numbers. I don't think it's coincidence the areas most effected are poorer, lower class areas where getting out of that environment is almost impossible. Heroin would be all over Belturbet if there was a market foe it there.

Hector Bellend

Its amazingly lucrative.

The high horse brigade

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

corner of hells

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

Portugal decriminalised not legalised , you can still receive fines , community service and be advised to look into treatment.
By not making personal possession an offence it frees up police time and resources allowing crime to be addressed at a wider level.
Portugal also addressed the health issues and needs at a broader multifaceted approach of the drug user reducing deaths .

Victor

flazio wrote: »

You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.

Part of this is cultural. In Europe, opoid abuse is heroin-based. In the USA, it is tablet-based. Cocaine and methamphetamine abuse seem to be more popular in the USA than Europe. Media representations follow this pattern.

While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight

Rough sleepers aren't all heroin users. Indeed, not all of them are drug or substance abusers.

a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

We should be trying harder to deal with the issues that cause substance abuse.

CrankyHaus

The US is currently going through a major heroin crisis, part of a broader opioid crisis that is the leading cause of death of Americans under 50 and has been declared a national emergency.

Part of the problem is an increase in Mexican produced heroin as previous cannabis growers switched to opium when US states legalised weed. A US crackdown on rampant prescription opioid abuse drove many addicts to heroin.

An overlooked constituency of support for Trump's widely derided wall are communities affected by this flow of heroin who are desperate enough to grasp any proposed solution.

US led efforts disrupted the heroin production in the golden triangle in South East Asia. Efforts to disrupt production in Afghanistan have been less successful. Now Latin American production is ramping up despite decades of significant US aid to countries there to curb drug production and supply. Clearly stopping the supply of heroin does not work.

pickarooney

Does 'made' in the thread title refer to 'effort' or 'heroin'?

They're two very different questions.

Samuel T. Cogley

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

Sorry to be pedantic but actually it hasn't it's increased slightly. However the effective harm has reduced hugely. I completely agree with your point though. Time to start treating it rather than trying to 'fight a war'.

Zebra3

The Taliban.

12gauge dave

The Taliban were against opium production and once allied forces invaded Iraq they turned a blind eye to opium production in order to build relationships with the locals so opium production shot up massively.
Wether allied forces were flying it back to USA from Afghanistan is true or not I don't know but i should hope not.
It is a massive problem in Usa more so in wealthy suburbs than poorer areas at this stage it must be incredibly easy to get for teenagers and young adults.
I'm guessing Mexico is where it is coming from now but it still has to come from Afghanistan first I believe so the problem lies there.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Ireland has already effectively decriminalised heroin usage.

flazio

pickarooney wrote: »

Does 'made' in the thread title refer to 'effort' or 'heroin'?

They're two very different questions.

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

CrankyHaus

flazio wrote: »

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

There are plenty of attempts to cut it at source where the poppies are grown.

In Ireland there are heroin seizures however Garda collusion with major heroin importers appears to be a problem:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_Boylan_affair

Alpha_zero

It's a very lucrative trade, and the vast majority of drug users consume voluntarily.

Wanderer78

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote:

Ireland has already effectively decriminalised heroin usage.

Decriminalise the lot, what a waste of money and resources as it is, be a bit more pro active than reactive in trying to deal with this problem

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Decriminalise the lot, what a waste of money and resources as it is, be a bit more pro active than reactive in trying to deal with this problem

What more do you want?

Wanderer78

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What more do you want?

its clearly obvious our approaches to this whole matter are largely failing, we ve wasted billions and trillions trying to contain it, and its largely failed. its important to realise, theres no real 'solution' to this issue, no matter what way we approach it, all methods and approaches will cause issues

Capt'n Midnight

If you are a farmer looking to make ends meet there's more money and less risk, especially from the local cartel or warlord, in growing narcotics than in growing a cash crop where the traders are constantly trying to shaft you.

If you want to stop production you have to provide the farmers with an alternative income. And it could be done for a fraction of the money spent on the "War on drugs"

Graces7

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The US is currently going through a major heroin crisis, part of a broader opioid crisis that is the leading cause of death of Americans under 50 and has been declared a national emergency.

Part of the problem is an increase in Mexican produced heroin as previous cannabis growers switched to opium when US states legalised weed. A US crackdown on rampant prescription opioid abuse drove many addicts to heroin.

An overlooked constituency of support for Trump's widely derided wall are communities affected by this flow of heroin who are desperate enough to grasp any proposed solution.

US led efforts disrupted the heroin production in the golden triangle in South East Asia. Efforts to disrupt production in Afghanistan have been less successful. Now Latin American production is ramping up despite decades of significant US aid to countries there to curb drug production and supply. Clearly stopping the supply of heroin does not work.

And America like Ireland, is focussing on the wrong people. Here as there people needing codeine for pain relief are being stigmatised and refused codeine when they themselves have never abused it

Sheerly paranoid and ineffectual an causing needless suffering (yes I am affected by this)

Walter Bishop

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

Wanderer78

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

activists such as russel brand are spot on, this is a health issue not a legal issue

Sofiztikated

Graces7 wrote: »

And America like Ireland, is focussing on the wrong people. Here as there people needing codeine for pain relief are being stigmatised and refused codeine when they themselves have never abused it

Sheerly paranoid and ineffectual an causing needless suffering (yes I am affected by this)

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

We're probably drifting off topic but most people addicted to OTC medication like codeine products are not only unaware that they are addicted but will vehemently deny they are. They will also maintain that Codeine is the only painkiller that works for them because a common withdrawal symptom, and addictive craving, for codeine manifests as pain.
We need to allow medical professionals call the tune on use, so genuine patients who can benefit will receive the treatment.

wexie

Aminah Dazzling Cucumber wrote: »

We're probably drifting off topic but most people addicted to OTC medication like codeine products are not only unaware that they are addicted but will vehemently deny they are. They will also maintain that Codeine is the only painkiller that works for them because a common withdrawal symptom, and addictive craving, for codeine manifests as pain.
We need to allow medical professionals call the tune on use, so genuine patients who can benefit and receive the treatment.

Codeine is widely available, with a prescription in many different forms.

There is absolutely no need for it to be (more) widely available OTC.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wexie wrote: »

Codeine is widely available, with a prescription in many different forms.

There is absolutely no need for it to be (more) widely available OTC.

Totally agree.

A neighbour here a few years ago switched doctors three times because she wanted to continue on codeine for pain relief - none would oblige. She eventually accepted the reality, switched medication and is fine now; but will readily admit that she had been addicted.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

The insults on AH aren’t public policy.

As I said, as as any perambulation down talbot st. would confirm we don’t actually criminalise use. Even public use. And we do treat addicts as patients - there are clinics where addicts can turn up and get a methodone fix. This has been public policy for 2-3 decades.

I’m not for changing this but it might be more useful in debate to acknowledge it exists rather than suggest the fix for a policy that already exists is the policy that already exists.

Legalisation of opioids or morphine derivatives could possibly lead to the situation in the US - an epidemic caused by fully legal drugs over prescribed by doctors and over advertised and pushed by the pharmaceutical companies.

That’s the problem with full legalisation, capitalism is ammoral. While you may reduce the amount of crime in the procurement of illegal drugs by making them legal you may well increase consumption because of the legality.

I’d apply the precautionary principle and muddle along.

wexie

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m not for changing this but it might be more useful in debate to acknowledge it exists rather than suggest the fix for a policy that already exists is the policy that already exists.

Or pointing at the policy and saying 'we're doing everything we can' cause clearly the policy isn't working too well. (that's not aimed at you by the way. Just tired of people pointing out there's a problem being answered with 'well there's a policy...)

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Legalisation of opioids or morphine derivatives could possibly lead to the situation in the US - an epidemic caused by fully legal drugs over prescribed by doctors and over advertised and pushed by the pharmaceutical companies.

I remember reading an article (think it was on the BBC site about this where it was suggested that once the 'crackdown' in the US started to get going some pharmaceutical companies moved entire teams into difference jurisdictions to start new marketing campaigns there.

wexie

Steve3452 wrote: »

Codeine can also lead to heroin they are the same type of drug large amounts of heroin addicts first started on prescription drugs like codeine.

And...perversely enough, large amounts of people in the US that got addicted to opiates end up doing heroin once they find prescription opiates too hard to get....

12gauge dave

The only question that needs answering is if 90% of heroin is made in Afghanistan and USA have occupied Afghanistan for the last 15 years or so then how has heroin gotten in to USA?

Heroin production in Afghanistan increased every year since occupation in 2001.

mohawk

The war on drugs is pointless. No government can win. it is a massive waste of money criminalising it. Tax it, treat the addicts.

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

wexie

mohawk wrote: »

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

Bill Hicks probably

Discodog

Steve3452 wrote: »

Codeine can also lead to heroin they are the same type of drug large amounts of heroin addicts first started on prescription drugs like codeine.

I had a friend who was addicted to Vallium. I went with her to her first therapy session. You can imagine our shock when the therapist said that it would be far easier to get off heroine than vallium - it took her three years.

Wanderer78

mohawk wrote: »

The war on drugs is pointless. No government can win. it is a massive waste of money criminalising it. Tax it, treat the addicts.

I would of been all for the war on drugs at one point. About 7/8 years ago I watched a documentary about it and it really challenged my previous view. Can't for the life of me remember who it was by.

worth a watch:

em_cat

flazio wrote: »

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

There are many facets; one is that you have to get people to stop wanting it. Demand is huge from pain relief to addiction.

kumate_champ07

heroin isnt the reason for homelessness

most people who are addicted to heroin and end up on the streets do so because they have had a traumatic life and are trying to escape that pain. They would have used alcohol before heroin was available. Heroin just happens to be the drug that gives them the warmest,safest feeling. Alcohol just takes the edge off. Whatever the drug choice, they are not functional members of society.

there will always be people who fall thru the cracks. The reason for high numbers today is not from drugs, its a result of corrupt/dysfunctional governments

em_cat

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

I nearly ended up severely addicted to the lot, opiates & fentyanl to antidepressants & benzodiazepines, (prescribed on discharge). I was fortunate enough to have received post traumatic psychological therapy with a super Senior Clinical Psychologist. This took place while I was learning how to walk again, but most importantly I wanted to be free of those as much as I was determined to walk again.

Do I still suffer from chronic pain? Yes, but do I need pain relief akin to heroine? No

Graces7

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

I am not poohpoohing it. I am simply asking for correct individual discernment . OK?OK! So that we who need pain relief from codeine can use it. and yes I know there is addiction but that is not an issue with me. The blanket assumption re banning codeine is causing huge suffering and is unwise

Graces7

Discodog wrote: »

I had a friend who was addicted to Vallium. I went with her to her first therapy session. You can imagine our shock when the therapist said that it would be far easier to get off heroine than vallium - it took her three years.

Took me a year. Was on 20 m at night for over a decade. A nightmare of a drug like all benzos.
The icing n the cake is that it produces the very symptoms it is meant to heal

Graces7

wexie wrote: »

And...perversely enough, large amounts of people in the US that got addicted to opiates end up doing heroin once they find prescription opiates too hard to get....

And many equally did not " end up doing heroin" yet got penalised.

wexie

Graces7 wrote: »

The blanket assumption re banning codeine is causing huge suffering and is unwise

But it's not banned?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wexie wrote: »

But it's not banned?

No, it's not and there's no reason why it can't be by prescription only.

Graces7

em_cat wrote: »

I nearly ended up severely addicted to the lot, opiates & fentyanl to antidepressants & benzodiazepines, (prescribed on discharge). I was fortunate enough to have received post traumatic psychological therapy with a super Senior Clinical Psychologist. This took place while I was learning how to walk again, but most importantly I wanted to be free of those as much as I was determined to walk again.

Do I still suffer from chronic pain? Yes, but do I need pain relief akin to heroine? No

Then you are lucky indeed! And I sincerely and truly hope your pain eases. And glad you had such help.

But codeine is not heroin. And it acts in a different way from eg aspirin
Someone mentioned rebound pain? That is very different from untreated pain. Trust us on that. Pain drains. It ages. Ruins all pleasure in life.

Graces7

wexie wrote: »

But it's not banned?

many GPS now refuse to prescribe it and some of us cannot chop and change eg medical card folk.

So may as well be banned :rolleyes:

The OTC painkillers contain 8mg codeine and 500 gm paracetemol eg solpedeine The prescription version of solpadol/Tylex, has 30 mg codeine and 500 paracetemol

Many experts opine there is too little codeine in OTC to get you addicted and I wonder at folk saying they take a packet of solpadeine a day as they would surely be in massive paracetamol OD unless they are separating the codeine out

OTC are also costly. and you get grilled by the pharmacist..

em_cat

Graces7 wrote: »

Then you are lucky indeed! And I sincerely and truly hope your pain eases. And glad you had such help.

But codeine is not heroin. And it acts in a different way from eg aspirin
Someone mentioned rebound pain? That is very different from untreated pain. Trust us on that. Pain drains. It ages. Ruins all pleasure in life.

I’m old enough to understand that as well as educated enough to understand the pharmacological differences.

The point that people are putting forward is that when someone becomes heavily dependent on the relief that codeine provides, but then say it’s taken away via bans, control, and/ or regulation; the same relief often is sought in heroin & heroin can be got much easier.

Also, pain is highly misunderstood by those suffering it and those who are trained to treat it, many of the worlds top Pain Specialists have written endless case studies on this very subject.

By no means am I an expert on the subject but through my experience, one thing I truly believe is that the majority of pain is psychological and the rest is physiological. 2 years ago I would of disagreed with the above.

There is a fabulous book by the noigroup called Explain Pain which my Physio in the NRH let me borrow, it made such an impact on me that I finally got the confidence to take my first steps...

Aplogies to the OP for slightly derailing...

em_cat

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Sofiztikated

em_cat wrote: »

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Because it "works"

People are generally clueless when it comes to pain medicines. They know what works, but are unaware of the side effects, or think the side effects won't apply to them.

Graces7

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Because it "works"

People are generally clueless when it comes to pain medicines. They know what works, but are unaware of the side effects, or think the side effects won't apply to them.

I for one am well aware of the side effects etc. After the encounter with valium I check every thing out very thoroughly and make my decisions on that . with tylex etc the small side effects i get are far less damaging than the unremitting and disabling pain without it and I know others in the same situation,

Graces7

em_cat wrote: »

Why don’t people ask their GP to refer them to a pain consultant? I know there aren’t many & the waiting lists are long but if I was in so much pain that I had to down a box of Solpadeine, my GP would insist I see a pain consultant.

Those who overuse OTC are not likely to be telling their GP . and in all my own years of pain have never been referred etc.