Why do we never see any effort to stop heroin being made?

flazio · 08-04-2018 09:01AM #1

Watching the ambulance documentaries on TV and the amount of heroin addicts you see is really depressing. It got me wondering. You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.
While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight, a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

judeboy101 · 08-04-2018 09:02AM

flazio wrote: »

Watching the ambulance documentaries on TV and the amount of heroin addicts you see is really depressing. It got me wondering. You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.
While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight, a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

No money in prevention.

Mrcaramelchoc · 08-04-2018 09:15AM

Build a wall.

LeBash · 08-04-2018 09:15AM

A huge amount is made in Afghanistan and it is one of the hard places in the world to get around. Also they don't take kindly to strangers appearing with weapons in their country and the internal politics is still tribal, so there isn't really anyone to try put pressure on to put pressure on to stop it.

It's also used in the medicines so it could always be shown to be grown for that.

Really, if we put some genuine resource into rehabilitation and prevention, we could squeeze it into tiny numbers. I don't think it's coincidence the areas most effected are poorer, lower class areas where getting out of that environment is almost impossible. Heroin would be all over Belturbet if there was a market foe it there.

Hector Bellend · 08-04-2018 09:26AM

Its amazingly lucrative.

The high horse brigade · 08-04-2018 09:30AM

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

corner of hells · 08-04-2018 10:10AM

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

Portugal decriminalised not legalised , you can still receive fines , community service and be advised to look into treatment.
By not making personal possession an offence it frees up police time and resources allowing crime to be addressed at a wider level.
Portugal also addressed the health issues and needs at a broader multifaceted approach of the drug user reducing deaths .

Victor · 08-04-2018 10:30AM

flazio wrote: »

You see every now and then cocaine getting seized in customs, grow houses destroyed all sorts of criminals put away and yet you never see anything about the supply of heroin to the streets getting disrupted. Now I've not seen any of the drug TV series like Narcos or Breaking Bad because it's bad enough looking at what the real services have to deal with without bumping up the ratings of series based on the people responsible.

Part of this is cultural. In Europe, opoid abuse is heroin-based. In the USA, it is tablet-based. Cocaine and methamphetamine abuse seem to be more popular in the USA than Europe. Media representations follow this pattern.

While I don't believe this will solve the rough sleepers problem overnight

Rough sleepers aren't all heroin users. Indeed, not all of them are drug or substance abusers.

a tackle on cutting the heroin supply might make some improvements to the situation and make some of these people capable of looking after a house.
I'd like to hear what you think. Should we be trying harder to stop the supply of heroin?

We should be trying harder to deal with the issues that cause substance abuse.

CrankyHaus · 08-04-2018 10:46AM

The US is currently going through a major heroin crisis, part of a broader opioid crisis that is the leading cause of death of Americans under 50 and has been declared a national emergency.

Part of the problem is an increase in Mexican produced heroin as previous cannabis growers switched to opium when US states legalised weed. A US crackdown on rampant prescription opioid abuse drove many addicts to heroin.

An overlooked constituency of support for Trump's widely derided wall are communities affected by this flow of heroin who are desperate enough to grasp any proposed solution.

US led efforts disrupted the heroin production in the golden triangle in South East Asia. Efforts to disrupt production in Afghanistan have been less successful. Now Latin American production is ramping up despite decades of significant US aid to countries there to curb drug production and supply. Clearly stopping the supply of heroin does not work.

pickarooney · 08-04-2018 10:51AM

Does 'made' in the thread title refer to 'effort' or 'heroin'?

They're two very different questions.

Samuel T. Cogley · 08-04-2018 10:53AM

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Legalise it you have control of the situation straight away. The war against drugs is lost. Time for a new approach. Check out Portugal, they legalized everything and hard drug use dropped.

Sorry to be pedantic but actually it hasn't it's increased slightly. However the effective harm has reduced hugely. I completely agree with your point though. Time to start treating it rather than trying to 'fight a war'.

Zebra3 · 08-04-2018 10:55AM

The Taliban.

12gauge dave · 08-04-2018 11:01AM

The Taliban were against opium production and once allied forces invaded Iraq they turned a blind eye to opium production in order to build relationships with the locals so opium production shot up massively.
Wether allied forces were flying it back to USA from Afghanistan is true or not I don't know but i should hope not.
It is a massive problem in Usa more so in wealthy suburbs than poorer areas at this stage it must be incredibly easy to get for teenagers and young adults.
I'm guessing Mexico is where it is coming from now but it still has to come from Afghanistan first I believe so the problem lies there.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-04-2018 11:04AM

Ireland has already effectively decriminalised heroin usage.

flazio · 08-04-2018 12:00PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Does 'made' in the thread title refer to 'effort' or 'heroin'?

They're two very different questions.

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

CrankyHaus · 08-04-2018 12:17PM

flazio wrote: »

Apologies. I mean getting the stuff off the streets from wherever it's coming from. It's curious to me that you hear of customs seizures or factory raids surrounding other substances but never heroin. It's sad to see what the ambulance service and hospitals have to deal with, one of the reasons (but not the only one I know) that good people get thrown out onto the streets and just a source of so much misery and yet I never hear of any attempts to cut it out at source like you do with other substances like Cocaine, cannabis, speed and the likes. Heck even tobacco is getting harder to source.
It makes little to no sense to me.

There are plenty of attempts to cut it at source where the poppies are grown.

In Ireland there are heroin seizures however Garda collusion with major heroin importers appears to be a problem:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_Boylan_affair

Alpha_zero · 08-04-2018 12:21PM

It's a very lucrative trade, and the vast majority of drug users consume voluntarily.

Wanderer78 · 08-04-2018 12:22PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote:

Ireland has already effectively decriminalised heroin usage.

Decriminalise the lot, what a waste of money and resources as it is, be a bit more pro active than reactive in trying to deal with this problem

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-04-2018 12:34PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Decriminalise the lot, what a waste of money and resources as it is, be a bit more pro active than reactive in trying to deal with this problem

What more do you want?

Wanderer78 · 08-04-2018 01:52PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What more do you want?

its clearly obvious our approaches to this whole matter are largely failing, we ve wasted billions and trillions trying to contain it, and its largely failed. its important to realise, theres no real 'solution' to this issue, no matter what way we approach it, all methods and approaches will cause issues

Capt'n Midnight · 08-04-2018 02:35PM

If you are a farmer looking to make ends meet there's more money and less risk, especially from the local cartel or warlord, in growing narcotics than in growing a cash crop where the traders are constantly trying to shaft you.

If you want to stop production you have to provide the farmers with an alternative income. And it could be done for a fraction of the money spent on the "War on drugs"

Graces7 · 08-04-2018 04:46PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The US is currently going through a major heroin crisis, part of a broader opioid crisis that is the leading cause of death of Americans under 50 and has been declared a national emergency.

Part of the problem is an increase in Mexican produced heroin as previous cannabis growers switched to opium when US states legalised weed. A US crackdown on rampant prescription opioid abuse drove many addicts to heroin.

An overlooked constituency of support for Trump's widely derided wall are communities affected by this flow of heroin who are desperate enough to grasp any proposed solution.

US led efforts disrupted the heroin production in the golden triangle in South East Asia. Efforts to disrupt production in Afghanistan have been less successful. Now Latin American production is ramping up despite decades of significant US aid to countries there to curb drug production and supply. Clearly stopping the supply of heroin does not work.

And America like Ireland, is focussing on the wrong people. Here as there people needing codeine for pain relief are being stigmatised and refused codeine when they themselves have never abused it

Sheerly paranoid and ineffectual an causing needless suffering (yes I am affected by this)

Walter Bishop · 08-04-2018 06:29PM

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

Wanderer78 · 08-04-2018 06:57PM

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

activists such as russel brand are spot on, this is a health issue not a legal issue

Sofiztikated · 08-04-2018 07:30PM

Graces7 wrote: »

And America like Ireland, is focussing on the wrong people. Here as there people needing codeine for pain relief are being stigmatised and refused codeine when they themselves have never abused it

Sheerly paranoid and ineffectual an causing needless suffering (yes I am affected by this)

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-04-2018 07:46PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It'd surprise you how many people abuse pain killers. Even down to panadol.

Unfortunately, like medical and recreational cannabis, people that use, but don't abuse, it get caught in the cross fire.

I know older ladies, some not far off your own age, that got opiate based pain relief for a variety of reasons, and one in particular can be seen goofing at family functions and whatnot. Another is known for raiding medicine cabinets when she visits, and can't be left alone with them.

I'm all for people being able to access medication. But we really do have a ****ty attitude to them, and pointing out the problem is constantly poopoo'ed by the likes of yourself.

We're probably drifting off topic but most people addicted to OTC medication like codeine products are not only unaware that they are addicted but will vehemently deny they are. They will also maintain that Codeine is the only painkiller that works for them because a common withdrawal symptom, and addictive craving, for codeine manifests as pain.
We need to allow medical professionals call the tune on use, so genuine patients who can benefit will receive the treatment.

wexie · 08-04-2018 07:52PM

Aminah Dazzling Cucumber wrote: »

We're probably drifting off topic but most people addicted to OTC medication like codeine products are not only unaware that they are addicted but will vehemently deny they are. They will also maintain that Codeine is the only painkiller that works for them because a common withdrawal symptom, and addictive craving, for codeine manifests as pain.
We need to allow medical professionals call the tune on use, so genuine patients who can benefit and receive the treatment.

Codeine is widely available, with a prescription in many different forms.

There is absolutely no need for it to be (more) widely available OTC.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-04-2018 07:57PM

wexie wrote: »

Codeine is widely available, with a prescription in many different forms.

There is absolutely no need for it to be (more) widely available OTC.

Totally agree.

A neighbour here a few years ago switched doctors three times because she wanted to continue on codeine for pain relief - none would oblige. She eventually accepted the reality, switched medication and is fine now; but will readily admit that she had been addicted.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-04-2018 08:03PM

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Junkies don't vote and that's why there's fu<k all done about it.

Decriminalise it, regulate it, take the Portuguese approach. Treat addicts as patients, people in need of help, and not as criminals, or sub-human vermin or whatever the insult du jour is on message boards.

The insults on AH aren’t public policy.

As I said, as as any perambulation down talbot st. would confirm we don’t actually criminalise use. Even public use. And we do treat addicts as patients - there are clinics where addicts can turn up and get a methodone fix. This has been public policy for 2-3 decades.

I’m not for changing this but it might be more useful in debate to acknowledge it exists rather than suggest the fix for a policy that already exists is the policy that already exists.

Legalisation of opioids or morphine derivatives could possibly lead to the situation in the US - an epidemic caused by fully legal drugs over prescribed by doctors and over advertised and pushed by the pharmaceutical companies.

That’s the problem with full legalisation, capitalism is ammoral. While you may reduce the amount of crime in the procurement of illegal drugs by making them legal you may well increase consumption because of the legality.

I’d apply the precautionary principle and muddle along.

wexie · 08-04-2018 08:11PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m not for changing this but it might be more useful in debate to acknowledge it exists rather than suggest the fix for a policy that already exists is the policy that already exists.

Or pointing at the policy and saying 'we're doing everything we can' cause clearly the policy isn't working too well. (that's not aimed at you by the way. Just tired of people pointing out there's a problem being answered with 'well there's a policy...)

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Legalisation of opioids or morphine derivatives could possibly lead to the situation in the US - an epidemic caused by fully legal drugs over prescribed by doctors and over advertised and pushed by the pharmaceutical companies.

I remember reading an article (think it was on the BBC site about this where it was suggested that once the 'crackdown' in the US started to get going some pharmaceutical companies moved entire teams into difference jurisdictions to start new marketing campaigns there.

wexie · 08-04-2018 08:12PM

Steve3452 wrote: »

Codeine can also lead to heroin they are the same type of drug large amounts of heroin addicts first started on prescription drugs like codeine.

And...perversely enough, large amounts of people in the US that got addicted to opiates end up doing heroin once they find prescription opiates too hard to get....

Why do we never see any effort to stop heroin being made?

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