The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

_Dara_ · 09-04-2018 02:44PM

JDD wrote: »

I agree. I think there's a few reasons for that. The SSM campaign was led by a very distinct subset of the population that had, through necessity, become used to becoming vocal about campaigning for their rights.

Together for Yes is a little more nebulous. Obviously the issue of abortion more directly affects women, and the campaign to repeal is being - more or less - led by women. But we are a much more diverse group, a good chunk of whom would be pro-life. It's more difficult to co-ordinate a campaign like this one.

There's a lot of undecided voters in this campaign, many of whom are undecided because they don't think the vote directly affects them. There are two accepted schools of thought when it comes to voting. Firstly, people tend to vote for the status quo if they are unsure about the implications of voting for change. And, people tend to vote for whichever side they think will win, as everyone wants to be on the winning side. In order to counteract the affect of the former, we need to increase the impression of the latter.

I've ordered some badges from the TFY website. I think the only way is for all of us that are in favour of appeal to wear something that indicates our preference. The more people see actual people wearing badges (as opposed to posters, which I think most people are immune to), the more the impression will be given that TFY is the winning side.

Obviously, still have the conversations with your family, and your friends, and online. But wear the badges/t-shirts too.

Actually, that was an issue in the SSM referendum too. I even heard people at the time complaining that it wasn’t an important issue simply because it didn’t directly affect them. So I don’t think that’s the reason for this being a quieter campaign. Actually, I think this issue affects a lot more people.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 02:50PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I strongly suspect most medical practitioners treating pregnant women in Ireland basically ignore the 8th amendment and follow international best practice regarding the condition concerned.

Absolutely ridiculously stupid post

They cant ignore the 8th amendment ffs. They would be struck off from being medical practioners for ignoring the law.

If they ignore the 8th, they wont be indemnified by insurers and PLC, Iona, Love Both, SPUC etc could basically sue them personally.

Triceratops Ballet · 09-04-2018 02:50PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Actually, that was an issue in the SSM referendum too. I even heard people at the time complaining that it wasn’t an important issue simply because it didn’t directly affect them. So I don’t think that’s the reason for this being a quieter campaign. Actually, I think this issue affects a lot more people.

I think the issue affects a lot more people, but I think there is still a good amount of people who think it doesn't or won't affect them and I think part of the reason is that people don't really talk openly about it.
There's a fair chunk of men out there who think it doesn't affect them, or they've no right to an opinion because it's a "womens issue" it's not though, it's a societal issue on how we value the rights of pregnant women, and it's important that these people know that their opinion on it and their vote is important.

ohnonotgmail · 09-04-2018 02:54PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

If the vote is as tight as divorce and they're is a visible "home to vote" campaign, I would expect many legal challenges to the outcome with a real risk of it being a success. I know of people that came back for SSM that were not eligible, people who emigrated several years before the vote and who have not returned.

Irish citizens should not return to vote, the vast majority of citizens abroad are not eligible and furthermore the issue doesn't concern them. They should campaign for or against abortion in the countries they are resident in.

Money from overseas should not be allowed to be used in the campaigns either. Foreign meddling damages democracy.

Postering has been sporadic, I would have expected every pole to be covered already? Or are campaigns not meant to poster until one month out?

that would rule out most of the money for the No campaign.

shivermetimber · 09-04-2018 02:54PM

Little off topic but would anyone know why myself and partner would not be on the register for this? We haven't moved and were on for the ssm referendum and last election?

JDD · 09-04-2018 03:00PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Actually, that was an issue in the SSM referendum too. I even heard people at the time complaining that it wasn’t an important issue simply because it didn’t directly affect them. So I don’t think that’s the reason for this being a quieter campaign. Actually, I think this issue affects a lot more people.

To be honest, if the vote was held today, I'd be happy enough if the undecideds didn't vote. People who are unengaged with the issue tend to vote for the status quo.

However, I know that isn't going to happen. A good chunk of the undecideds are the pro-life "shy" vote, and the remainder probably won't make their decision until they get to the polling booth. Hence the urging to make the Repeal voters more visible.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 03:12PM

shivermetimber wrote: »

Little off topic but would anyone know why myself and partner would not be on the register for this? We haven't moved and were on for the ssm referendum and last election?

Hard to say. The checktheregister site may be glitchy and not showing your name even though you are registered, You may not have been in when the county council employees called around, you may have ignored notes from the county council OR (I emphasise this is an unsubstantiated rumour) someone may have rung up to ask county council to remove your name because they know you might vote a certain way. (There are unsubstantiated rumours that pro life campaign are ringing county councils to remove known pro choice voters).

Before you fill in any forms either ring the County Council to check or Check the physical copy in the Library or Garda Station.

shivermetimber · 09-04-2018 03:15PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hard to say. The checktheregister site may be glitchy and not showing your name even though you are registered, You may not have been in when the county council employees called around, you may have ignored notes from the county council OR (I emphasise this is an unsubstantiated rumour) someone may have rung up to ask county council to remove your name because they know you might vote a certain way. (There are unsubstantiated rumours that pro life campaign are ringing county councils to remove known pro choice voters).

Before you fill in any forms either ring the County Council to check or Check the physical copy in the Library or Garda Station.

I did think of a glitchy site first of all but both myself and partner are missing from it whereas a former housemate is still on it when I check which I thought was strange. Didn't ignore any notes and no mention of anyone calling around area. Didn't realise you can check a physical record but may try ring cc first.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 03:17PM

shivermetimber wrote: »

I did think of a glitchy site first of all but both myself and partner are missing from it whereas a former housemate is still on it when I check which I thought was strange. Didn't ignore any notes and no mention of anyone calling around area. Didn't realise you can check a physical record but may try ring cc first.

Yes ring them.

January · 09-04-2018 03:19PM

Ring or email they're pretty quick to get back to you

Sofiztikated · 09-04-2018 03:26PM

January wrote: »

No, once the referendum date is set posters can go up, for elections it's 30 days. The problem is funding. We've had a few posters up but not near as much as the no side.

The second raft of No posters are up here, with something about yawning at 8 (or 9) weeks, and don't repeal me.

_Dara_ · 09-04-2018 03:37PM

Edward M wrote: »

This is a sad story!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Ugh, that is sad and depressing.

On receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, your mind is already scrambled and the thought of having to think about making travel arrangements and go through the termination procedure on top of that, I can’t even imagine that.

And I know some might think “If she was terminal could she not bring the pregnancy to term?” but it’s complicated physically, even if she had wanted to. One of the common places for melanoma to spread to is the bones, weakening them. Pathological fractures are common. You can break a bone by just sneezing. I have secondary cancer in my bones and broke one of my ribs. I don’t even know how. I never fell. It was likely just caused by a sneeze or cough. So imagine putting a body weakened in such a way through a pregnancy? Pregnancy is hard enough on women who are in full health.

And her cancer was terminal but many melanoma patients get a long stay of execution because of life-prolonging treatments. I guess she took that option. She should never have had to leave the comfort of her familiar surroundings. In the first days after my diagnosis, I was in the horrors but my home gave me comfort, it was my haven. The one familiar thing in a very scary new world.

chalkitdown1 · 09-04-2018 03:55PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Normally I don't have much time for John Oliver but this is spot on ...

These pro-life groups are fúcking disgusting human beings. That was infuriating to watch. The worst part of these groups is that are not pro-life at all, they're pro carry to term, because once the baby is born they couldn't give less of a shít about the mother or child.

reubenreuben · 09-04-2018 03:57PM

For the record, only irish citizens can vote on this referendum. If you are only a resident yet have been living here for many many years you cannot partake in this referendum.

In April 2016, there were 535,475 non-Irish nationals living in Ireland.
Either way, these people will not be able to vote.

So any of these people cannot have a say in how they wish to be treated if they want an abortion or not.

Unfair

JDD · 09-04-2018 04:05PM

reubenreuben wrote: »

For the record, only irish citizens can vote on this referendum. If you are only a resident yet have been living here for many many years you cannot partake in this referendum.

I am sure there is at least 10% of the population that are non citizens.
Either way, these people will not be able to vote.

To be fair, that's only right. If you're not willing to become a citizen of the country, despite being eligible, you shouldn't have a say on amending the constitution.

I also agree that people outside of the country for more than two years shouldn't be eligible to vote - which is in fact the current legal position. I take the argument that in a close election such as this might be, the contingent of "home to voters" might hold quite a powerful card. However, I'm not sure that people who are outside of the country for more than two years and come home to vote are such a large contingent that they'd have sway over the final vote.

reubenreuben · 09-04-2018 04:09PM

JDD wrote: »

To be fair, that's only right. If you're not willing to become a citizen of the country, despite being eligible, you shouldn't have a say on amending the constitution.

I also agree that people outside of the country for more than two years shouldn't be eligible to vote - which is in fact the current legal position. I take the argument that in a close election such as this might be, the contingent of "home to voters" might hold quite a powerful card. However, I'm not sure that people who are outside of the country for more than two years and come home to vote are such a large contingent that they'd have sway over the final vote.

Its a lot of people though, 535,475 non-Irish nationals living in Ireland who cant vote

JDD · 09-04-2018 04:15PM

reubenreuben wrote: »

Its a lot of people though, 535,475 non-Irish nationals living in Ireland who cant vote

How many of those are here for more than five years though? And if they're here for less, are they just here for a couple of years to make some money and move back home? And if they're here for more than five years, why aren't they looking to get an irish passport?

reubenreuben · 09-04-2018 04:16PM

JDD wrote: »

How many of those are here for more than five years though? And if they're here for less, are they just here for a couple of years to make some money and move back home? And if they're here for more than five years, why aren't they looking to get an irish passport?

1100 euros for a passport will maybe answer your question

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 04:19PM

reubenreuben wrote: »

For the record, only irish citizens can vote on this referendum. If you are only a resident yet have been living here for many many years you cannot partake in this referendum.

In April 2016, there were 535,475 non-Irish nationals living in Ireland.
Either way, these people will not be able to vote.

So any of these people cannot have a say in how they wish to be treated if they want an abortion or not.

Unfair

Plus it can impact on a lot of them in quite a harsh way - many of them because of their migration status may not be able to travel

Trasna1 · 09-04-2018 04:21PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They don't have to return. They just have to be planning to return within 18 months. Plans change.

Those that I know that voted were gone longer than 18 months and had no intention of returning.

Fraud was encouraged because those traveling were likely to vote the "right" way. The way such willful undermining of the electoral process was celebrated in the media was truly awful.

Trasna1 · 09-04-2018 04:22PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that would rule out most of the money for the No campaign.

I've no problem with that. Irish campaigners using Irish funds should contest Irish elections and referendums.

It's no one else's business.

_Dara_ · 09-04-2018 04:32PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Those that I know that voted were gone longer than 18 months and had no intention of returning.

Fraud was encouraged because those traveling were likely to vote the "right" way. The way such willful undermining of the electoral process was celebrated in the media was truly awful.

It’s a loophole that needs to be closed and it’s not right that someone out of the country for good or like long-term was able to vote. BUT like I said, it’s a loophole - why did the No side not exploit it? Those voters wouldn’t have been stopped either. And you can be damn sure people will be coming from abroad to vote to save the 8th. Don’t kid yourself otherwise.

Until they figure out a way to close out this loophole, it will happen. Don’t be sore about that.

JDD · 09-04-2018 04:34PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Plus it can impact on a lot of them in quite a harsh way - many of them because of their migration status may not be able to travel

Well, that I agree is harsh. But in general I believe that constitutional elections should be for Irish citizens living in Ireland only, given the near to permanent nature of any such amendments. Any country will have waves of non-nationals that will come and go according to how the economy is doing. While I'm happy for them to have a vote in local and national elections - after all, they pay their tax here, they should have a vote on how it is spent - a constitutional vote is different. It should only be for people who are born here, or who have lived here for more than five years and have a strong enough connection to the country that they are willing to save and apply for a passport.

I agree that the cost of a passport is on the high side, but presumably it is because some investigations that have to be done before approving an application are costly and time intensive, and the remainder of the applicants must subsidise that cost so that there's a flat fee no matter which country you come from.

I've no problem with that. Irish campaigners using Irish funds should contest
Irish elections and referendums.

It's no one else's business.

That, at least, we can all agree on.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 04:38PM

JDD wrote: »

Well, that I agree is harsh. But in general I believe that constitutional elections should be for Irish citizens living in Ireland only, given the near to permanent nature of any such amendments. Any country will have waves of non-nationals that will come and go according to how the economy is doing. While I'm happy for them to have a vote in local and national elections - after all, they pay their tax here, they should have a vote on how it is spent - a constitutional vote is different. It should only be for people who are born here, or who have lived here for more than five years and have a strong enough connection to the country that they are willing to save and apply for a passport.

I agree that the cost of a passport is on the high side, but presumably it is because some investigations that have to be done before approving an application are costly and time intensive, and the remainder of the applicants must subsidise that cost so that there's a flat fee no matter which country you come from.

That, at least, we can all agree on.

The rules for elections can be very disenfranchising for migrants in general. My friend lives in Switzerland. He cant vote in Ireland because he doesnt live here. He cant vote in Switzerland because he is not a citizen so he has no vote anywhere.

Imhof Tank · 09-04-2018 04:50PM

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 04:52PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

The tactic of letting "licence to kill" etc up first is deliberate. I dont think lots of no posters worry repeal campaign too much given how nasty they are. Remember that the nastiness of the No posters for marriage equality swung a lot of voters in favour of marriage equality. The save the 8th crowd have not learned that lesson!

McTigs · 09-04-2018 05:14PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The tactic of letting "licence to kill" etc up first is deliberate. I dont think lots of no posters worry repeal campaign too much given how nasty they are. Remember that the nastiness of the No posters for marriage equality swung a lot of voters in favour of marriage equality. The save the 8th crowd have not learned that lesson!

There was a big "Babies Will Die" put up on the lampost outside my house. I phoned the guards and complained, said it was offensive and UNTRUE and didn't want my daughters (7 and 5) reading it and getting upset (older one definitely would) and they said feel free to take it down.... so i did.

I've cut it up now and it makes a very handy kneeler for when weeding the garden

garbo speaks · 09-04-2018 05:18PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

Are you saying our mainstream liberal Irish media are actually biased in favour of repeal? Shock horror!

Zerbini Blewitt · 09-04-2018 05:20PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

...
I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

That’s only true for those who were not paying attention.

Approximately half the polls were predicting a leave win in the 5 months leading up to the Brexit ref.

Of course, there will be far fewer polls in this campaign, in comparison.

Annasopra · 09-04-2018 05:29PM

McTigs wrote: »

There was a big "Babies Will Die" put up on the lampost outside my house. I phoned the guards and complained, said it was offensive and UNTRUE and didn't want my daughters (7 and 5) reading it and getting upset (older one definitely would) and they said feel free to take it down.... so i did.

I've cut it up now and it makes a very handy kneeler for when weeding the garden

The guards told you to break the law?

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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