New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

Sam Russell · 09-04-2018 9:17am #1

There appears to be great demand for new Luas/Metro lines now that the cross city line is working (?) and everyone wants one passing through their neighbourhood.

Crayons out and away you go.

cgcsb · 09-04-2018 9:29am

From Clarehall along the Malahide road and into Fairview/Amien St seems a logical choice. UCD to the City centre, perhaps connecting to the Green line at Charlemont so the new green line will be UCD-Finglas, as the rest of the current green line gets absorbed into metro. I'd advocate more city centre capacity, another 2 cross city routes one north-south and one east-west. Luas should be inside the M50 only, far flung journeys like Citywest and Bray were never suitable for frequent stop urban light rail.

salmocab · 09-04-2018 10:27am

I’d like to see one starting firhouse knocklyon sweeping to ballyboden Rathfarnham then in Terenure Harold’s cross and passing the planned one and darts wherever practical and then on out north wherever is needed (don’t know NS well enough to make a sound judgement but toward clontarf and then head north parallel with the dart but a few miles west would seem logical)

Triceratops Ballet · 09-04-2018 10:31am

I'd like to see them come down the full length of the canals, red line could split at suir road and straight down to grand canal dock, where you can then change for the dart, there's no bus that runs a canal route afaik yet hundreds of people walk cycle and drive down the canal every day

Nermal · 09-04-2018 10:35am

Branch off from the red line at Benburb St. in front of the Ashling hotel, continue up Parkgate St. into the Phoenix Park on Chesterfield Avenue. Go straight through the park, on exit follow the Castleknock Road and then Main St. through Blanchardstown up to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

blanch152 · 09-04-2018 10:36am

cgcsb wrote: »

From Clarehall along the Malahide road and into Fairview/Amien St seems a logical choice.

Interchange at Clontarf Road with DART?

Then go down to the Point?

cgcsb wrote: »

UCD to the City centre, perhaps connecting to the Green line at Charlemont so the new green line will be UCD-Finglas, as the rest of the current green line gets absorbed into metro.

Charlemont would be a proper interchange then.

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd advocate more city centre capacity, another 2 cross city routes one north-south and one east-west.

East-West should be along Thomas Street/Dame Street to terminate at College Green Plaza.

Is Christchurch Hill too steep? If not, North/South could head out Clanbrassil Street to Harold's Cross and/or Kimmage.

Heading the other way, it could interchange with Four Courts on Red, Grangegorman on Green and terminate at the Mater.

cgcsb wrote: »

Luas should be inside the M50 only, far flung journeys like Citywest and Bray were never suitable for frequent stop urban light rail.

From Heuston, along the N4 to Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Liffey Valley and Lucan.

From Museum, through the Phoenix Park, stopping at the Zoo, Ashtown Gate, and linking to the Maynooth Line at Navan Road Parkway, before crossing the M50 to Abbotstown, ITB and Tyrellstown.

Broombridge to Finglas.

There would be no road space left for cars though.

daheff · 09-04-2018 10:40am

I dont want to see anymore Luas lines. Would much rather we used sense and put in underground lines(appreciating these are much more expensive). Although these should be underground in city centre, where it makes sense put them overground outside the centre. We need to maximise available commuting options rather than redesignate existing roadspace.

Cant honestly say the cross city line is working.......

LeinsterDub · 09-04-2018 11:41am

Nermal wrote: »

Branch off from the red line at Benburb St. in front of the Ashling hotel, continue up Parkgate St. into the Phoenix Park on Chesterfield Avenue. Go straight through the park, on exit follow the Castleknock Road and then Main St. through Blanchardstown up to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

The current lines don't have capacity for branching .

salmocab · 09-04-2018 11:48am

daheff wrote: »

I dont want to see anymore Luas lines. Would much rather we used sense and put in underground lines(appreciating these are much more expensive). Although these should be underground in city centre, where it makes sense put them overground outside the centre. We need to maximise available commuting options rather than redesignate existing roadspace.

Cant honestly say the cross city line is working.......

The LUAS can run underground I know in my own dream I suggested putting it through Terenure and Harold’s cross I envisaged it being below ground.

wakka12 · 09-04-2018 11:58am

I thought cross city really shows that non segragated trams just do not work in a city with a narrow medieval street layout and bad traffic , metro is the only solution that will have any large long term benefits

loyatemu · 09-04-2018 12:07pm

wakka12 wrote: »

I thought cross city really shows that non segragated trams just do not work in a city with a narrow medieval street layout and bad traffic , metro is the only solution that will have any large long term benefits

I was in Munich last week and they have trams going right through the city without issue. Some parts of the city have obviously been modernised post-WW2 but there are sections that are narrow and medieval with trams on them. What was noticeable though was there are hardly any bus routes through the centre (there's also an underground network).

cgcsb · 09-04-2018 12:09pm

Plenty of room for surface running of luas tracks in Dublin City Centre, it's simply a matter of removing cars. That being said laying down tram tracks is no substitute for a proper metro. trams are good to serve inner suburbs and central parts of the city. longer distance routes need more segregation.

A Disgrace · 09-04-2018 12:30pm

Like some posters, I don't think the city can handle any more Luas lines.

However, I never understood why they didn't consider linking Red to Green, via the Liberities

James Hospial - Thomas St - Francis Street - St Patricks Cathedral - Kevin St - Cuffe St - Stephen's Green

Sam Russell · 09-04-2018 12:37pm

The massive advantage of the proposed Metrolink is that it has huge journey generators along the line. Dublin Airport- City Centre would be a justification on its own, but add Swords - Airport and DCU and Whitworth RD interchange and the existing Green Line overcapacity issue and you have justification in spades.

Are there any other journey generators in Dublin? Dart expansion will cover the west of the city, and Dart already cover some of the NE, so SW is thonly area that could generate a Metro level of traffic, given the Red Line already covers Tallaght, but goes the scenic route.

So, the only route to justify Metro would be Tallaght, Rathfarnham to Harolds Cross, then onto Smithfield. Not sure after that.

As far as Luas is concerned, we need a network of routes in the city centre, not just two lines. For example, the Red line could go down High St and onto Lord Edward St and join the Green line in College Green. That would allow a routing of Tallaght to Broombridge. Other cross routes might be worth looking at.

Equium · 09-04-2018 12:44pm

Nermal wrote: »

Branch off from the red line at Benburb St. in front of the Ashling hotel, continue up Parkgate St. into the Phoenix Park on Chesterfield Avenue. Go straight through the park, on exit follow the Castleknock Road and then Main St. through Blanchardstown up to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

I would love to see the Red Line moved underground from somewhere between St James' and Museum to the IFSC. I wouldn't love the disruption involved, however...

Although very much a pipe dream, doing this would increase capacity and allow for spurs to be built to, for example, Blanchardstown on the eastern end of the line. On the other end of line, I would like to see expansion to Irishtown/Ringsend via a new bridge next to the East Link. This spur would finish within the confines of the former Irish Glass Bottle site. This area is due to be developed into a large residential suburb in the near future. Another option would be to extend from The Point Depot to East Point business park. Again, this area is ripe for massive redevelopment.

With the Green Line, the obvious next step is the northwards extension into Finglas. From speaking to TII employees, substantial work has been put into planning this route. The (hoped) completion of Metrolink will obviously impact on the existing Green Line as well, leaving a stubbed end at Charlemont. I would welcome expansion of the tracks from just south of the Harcourt stop towards Leeson Street and then possibly either Grand Canal Dock or UCD.

Running an at-grade Luas towards the southwest of the city has been deemed undesirable by numerous studies, so any much-needed rail-based transport options for Harold's Cross, Kimmage, Terenure and beyond will have to be built underground. I would like to see a southwest-northeast line built which intersects with the proposed Metrolink line at either SSG, Tara Street or O'Connell Street.

Colonel Claptrap · 09-04-2018 12:52pm

Michael McDowell writing in the SBP claims the metro is a colossal waste of money. As is the proposed DART Underground. He describes them as pet projects for the state's transport engineers.

His proposed alternative:
For the same money you could have 6-8 new Luas lines throughout the city.

It you had a choice between Metro and say 6 Luas lines, which would you prefer?

For the record, I disagree with him.

cgcsb · 09-04-2018 1:02pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Michael McDowell writing in the SBP claims the metro is a colossal waste of money. As is the proposed DART Underground. He describes them as pet projects for the state's transport engineers.

His proposed alternative:
For the same money you could have 6-8 new Luas lines throughout the city.

It you had a choice between Metro and say 6 Luas lines, which would you prefer?

For the record, I disagree with him.

6 new luas lines aren't going to provide the capacity required though are they. Does he know anything about capacity? You could have thousands of cars for the same price I'm sure, but why bother with an irrelevant comparison.

Colonel Claptrap · 09-04-2018 1:07pm

cgcsb wrote: »

6 new luas lines aren't going to provide the capacity required though are they. Does he know anything about capacity? You could have thousands of cars for the same price I'm sure, but why bother with an irrelevant comparison.

He argues that the metro would not serve the majority of Dublin residents. 6 luas lines could spread out and interconnect. A north south metro is not much help to those not on or near the line.

Again, his argument, not mine.

LXFlyer · 09-04-2018 1:08pm

Look if there is one thing LUAS across-City has taught us, it is that non-segregated tram lines simply do not work.

There are very few arterial routes from the city centre that could support another tram line and frankly I’d say the chances of new lines being added (apart from extending existing ones to Finglas, Ringsend and towards Bray) are slim to zilch.

The Rathfarnham corridor was canned because there simply wasn’t the roadspace to deliver a reliable service that would be faster than the existing bus services and the CPO costs would be exhorbitant. That same argument can be applied to most other corridors. The only option for the south central area is a metro line.

While there is scope for redirecting some private traffic in the heart of the city centre, there are limits to how far you can go with that on the arterial corridors - people still need access. Dublin has far too many narrow local villages and corridors that prevent delivery of a reliable and fast tram network that can co-exist with other modes of traffic.

marno21 · 09-04-2018 2:38pm

No more Luas lines or extensions until some proper high capacity routes through the city centre are built. The existing two surface lines are at or approaching capacity and expanding capacity on these lines in their current form is not feasible.

The city will grind to a halt if both the primary east west and north south rail corridors are at grade trams. When Metrolink and the interconnector tunnel are built we can explore further Luas expansions. In their present form the lines don't seem to be able to manage with current and future traffic volumes along the current lines let alone expanding them.

In the future a Metro from Tallaght through Harolds Cross/Rathfarnham/Terenure meeting with Metro in the city centre and heading out in the direction of the Malahide Road would make sense.

cgcsb · 09-04-2018 3:41pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

He argues that the metro would not serve the majority of Dublin residents. 6 luas lines could spread out and interconnect. A north south metro is not much help to those not on or near the line.

Again, his argument, not mine.

6 luas lines all with insufficient capacity to serve their catchments. Why bother? Besides the scope for new surface luas running is limited by geography.

cgcsb · 09-04-2018 3:46pm

marno21 wrote: »

No more Luas lines or extensions until some proper high capacity routes through the city centre are built. The existing two surface lines are at or approaching capacity and expanding capacity on these lines in their current form is not feasible.

The city will grind to a halt if both the primary east west and north south rail corridors are at grade trams. When Metrolink and the interconnector tunnel are built we can explore further Luas expansions. In their present form the lines don't seem to be able to manage with current and future traffic volumes along the current lines let alone expanding them.

In the future a Metro from Tallaght through Harolds Cross/Rathfarnham/Terenure meeting with Metro in the city centre and heading out in the direction of the Malahide Road would make sense.

I would imagine that'll be the next metro line and it could be elevated running on the more suburban sections. This will take the pressure off the current red line which will be used for more short hops rather than Tallaght-City Centre, which can be delivered by metro in around 15 mins.

If/When that happens Dublin will have a pretty decent network in place. All we need at that point is to remove anti-progress elements who stifle high density development.

bk · 09-04-2018 3:47pm

marno21 wrote: »

No more Luas lines or extensions until some proper high capacity routes through the city centre are built. The existing two surface lines are at or approaching capacity and expanding capacity on these lines in their current form is not feasible.

While I would agree with your overall sentiment, I wouldn't say that is the case for all proposed extensions.

For instance extending the Green Line into Finglas makes absolute sense. The Broombridge to city center section is definitely no where near capacity and would easily able to handle more people on this section.

The capacity constraints are mostly from the south city center to Sandyford section which will obviously be upgraded to Metro.

But the Finglas extension would be a cheap and sensible upgrade. Likewise I'd say the same for the extension of the Red line to Poolbeg or even East Point Business Park.

Of course I completely agree with you on proposals of a spur off the Red Line to Lucan or Green line to Bray. Just I wouldn't lump them all in the same basket.

bk · 09-04-2018 3:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

6 luas lines all with insufficient capacity to serve their catchments. Why bother? Besides the scope for new surface luas running is limited by geography.

Yes, the Green line is already bursting at the seams and the Red Line is also maxed out. Why would you build six more of those!!!!

marno21 · 09-04-2018 3:58pm

bk wrote: »

While I would agree with your overall sentiment, I wouldn't say that is the case for all proposed extensions.

For instance extending the Green Line into Finglas makes absolute sense. The Broombridge to city center section is definitely no where near capacity and would easily able to handle more people on this section.

The capacity constraints are mostly from the south city center to Sandyford section which will obviously be upgraded to Metro.

But the Finglas extension would be a cheap and sensible upgrade. Likewise I'd say the same for the extension of the Red line to Poolbeg or even East Point Business Park.

Of course I completely agree with you on proposals of a spur off the Red Line to Lucan or Green line to Bray. Just I wouldn't lump them all in the same basket.

That's a good point regarding the Broombridge extension to Finglas, but I was more thinking about how the rest of the Green Line is jammed and how there may be knock on effects along the rest of the line especially with the DIT amalgamation at Grangegorman and potentially DART Expansion to Maynooth feeding into the Green Lne.

The notion that further Luas lines to as per McDowell's article in yesterdays SBP though needs to be quashed though. There is simply no way you can bring everyone into the city centre on narrow streets jam packed with at grade trams, buses, taxis and peds/cyclists.

bk · 09-04-2018 4:08pm

marno21 wrote: »

The notion that further Luas lines to as per McDowell's article in yesterdays SBP though needs to be quashed though. There is simply no way you can bring everyone into the city centre on narrow streets jam packed with at grade trams, buses, taxis and peds/cyclists.

Again, not really disagreeing with you as such, but I will say it could be technically possible. Lots of European cities have done it. But they did it by completely banning cars and taxis from their city centers and also removing most buses and giving most of the space over to trams, pedestrians and bikes.

While I'd love to see that happen. Realistically such a move would face tremendous political opposition from a bunch of rich and well connected folks, so very unlikely to actually fly.

And I suspect McDowell knows this perfectly well when he suggested it. Can Metrolink on the promise of building 6 Luas lines instead, knowing perfectly well that when it came to it the 6 Luas lines would face massive opposition and never get built and thus we end up with nothing but a stupid second M50.

BoatMad · 09-04-2018 6:06pm

Look if there is one thing LUAS across-City has taught us, it is that non-segregated tram lines simply do not work.

I disagree and many European Medieval Towns and cities do also

The issue is that on street trams require a significant degree of removal of vehicular traffic , both private and public , you cant have everyone competing for the same space, thats the " take out" . Interesting the original cross city proposal foresaw significant disruption ti buses, but its seems BE has squawked about it and doesnt want to do it

BoatMad · 09-04-2018 6:08pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, the Green line is already bursting at the seams and the Red Line is also maxed out. Why would you build six more of those!!!!

err because its clearly popular and works

bk · 09-04-2018 6:16pm

BoatMad wrote: »

err because its clearly popular and works

The problem is they are so full, that people are now being left behind at platforms and are thus going back to their cars or buses. It is over-capacity.

And this just 15 years after they first open! How will they cope with the increase in population over the next 20 years!

Instead build Metro lines that can actually carry the demand that is actually there.

In reality you need a mix of core, high capacity, Metro lines, fed by bus and trams lines. We need to start building Metros now, but also increase trams. It isn't one or the other.

LXFlyer · 09-04-2018 6:29pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I disagree and many European Medieval Towns and cities do also

The issue is that on street trams require a significant degree of removal of vehicular traffic , both private and public , you cant have everyone competing for the same space, thats the " take out" . Interesting the original cross city proposal foresaw significant disruption ti buses, but its seems BE has squawked about it and doesnt want to do it

Well you try and tell me how you would achieve that on the arterial routes in and out of the city - I’m talking the likes of Rathmines, Harold’s X, Terenure etc.

While removing the traffic is achievable to a degree in the city centre, doing so in the inner suburbs becomes far more difficult.

It’s a fantasy to think you can remove traffic from all of those areas. We need to be realistic about this.

As for the city centre - no one proposed a solution for the buses. In fact the original plans by the RPA assumed all of the the bus routes could co-exist with LUAS.

It was only in 2016 that DCC came up with the Plaza idea and in 2016 removed the Parliament St option for diverted routes. This is going to mean either significant diversions or buses no longer serving areas they have linked to for decades and leaving commuters with a potential 15 minute extra on their commute in BOTH directions. That’s a real problem potentially for many commuters. DB is voicing concern on their behalf here rather than the entity itself and people need to realise that - I’m assuming you meant Dublin Bus rather than BE.

DART Underground and more Metro lines (at the very least serving the south central core to southwest Dublin) are the only realistic long term solutions

Sam Russell · 09-04-2018 6:29pm

DU would be the EW high capacity rapid transit line allowing connection from Malahide through to Clondalkin, Hazelhatch and beyond. NS catered for by Metrolink. That leaves SW to NE, say Tallaght to Whitehall and Beaumont and beyond.

The Dart does SE to CC so a Metrolink or Dart going out towards Blanch from CC.

Three underground routes should do what is needed with interchanges spread around - we do not need a single 'An Lar' central interchange.

New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

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