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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #8192
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Cannot see any problem with Jackson coming back. Found not guilty.
    Didn't Munster rugby sign Grobelar and him allegedly a drugs cheat.
    Haven't heard any comment from nervous sponsors there.
    Time to move on.
    Trial is over.


  • #8193
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm aware of the presumption of innocence.

    Their actual innocence was not on trial, merely their innocence in relation to the charges laid before them, being found not guilty of those charges is in effect a declaration of innocence in relation to those charges


  • #8194
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,850 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BBDBB wrote: »
    I think the reality is somewhere between the two

    The balance for sponsors is different to Ulster/IRFU

    At the moment Olding & Jackson have become figures of hate and a target for those with a legitimate complaint, thats not good for business to be associated with

    However
    1) They were found not guilty of all charges (in under 4 hours- very quickly)
    2) Their unsavoury texts were a private conversation that would have remained so without the court case
    3) They have already served two years (approx) away from their chosen profession and missed out already on potential honours.


    Ulster/IRFU have a difficult decision to make,
    The reality is that public opinion vacillates and swings, time dampens fervour and public denouncements from official bodies sound great but don't necessarily mean permanent decisions are an absolute finality


    My guess is that they'll delay a decision, the season is nearly over, they'll re-evaluate their eligibility and suitability for starting next season and let the international prospects become problematic or a non-issue as and when form and injury dictates

    Agree with your guess.


  • #8195
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    Yourself and Jacko seem quite close, i'd say you'll be in the corporate box.

    Be in the cheap seats i suspect.
    While a part of me would like him to return for the summer tour i would also like to witness his return personally in the autumn internationals.


  • #8196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 9,117 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BBDBB wrote: »

    Ulster/IRFU have a difficult decision to make,
    The reality is that public opinion vacillates and swings, time dampens fervour and public denouncements from official bodies sound great but don't necessarily mean permanent decisions are an absolute finality


    My guess is that they'll delay a decision, the season is nearly over, they'll re-evaluate their eligibility and suitability for starting next season and let the international prospects become problematic or a non-issue as and when form and injury dictates

    Is there not an added dimension though, playing for a Province or Country over playing for a club? An additional measure of "rigour" in terms of conduct that may not necessarily apply to club rugby?


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  • #8197
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Agree with your guess.

    Yes. Despite the IRFU having a zero tolerance approach to drugs, IRFU chiefs said that they were prepared to give people a second chance.

    Time now for Philip Browne to step up.


  • #8198
    BBDBB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Is there not an added dimension though, playing for a Province or Country over playing for a club? An additional measure of "rigour" in terms of conduct that may not necessarily apply to club rugby?

    If you are correct, (and you may well be) from the point of view of those making the decision would they necessarily appreciate the difference you are pointing out? From their perspective it is what it is, they know no different, they dont manage a club side and probably never have, they manage and are invested in the province, including its history and culture and community. I dont see how a club side would view themselves as significantly different in making the decisions if they were faced with them

    Long story short, you may well be right about it being an added dimension, Im not sure it makes that significant a difference to the decision to be made or the factors influencing them


  • #8199
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,850 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Is there not an added dimension though, playing for a Province or Country over playing for a club? An additional measure of "rigour" in terms of conduct that may not necessarily apply to club rugby?

    His contract is with the IRFU, not Ulster rugby.


  • #8200
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    I'm just watching Joe Brolly on +1 The Late Late. Speaking of his dad in Long Kesh, meeting Loyalist paramilitary Andy Tyrie.

    Very interesting. 'We're all multi faceted beings, we are capable of great good and wild, wild things... But everyone deserves forgiveness.'

    In the context of this thread thought provoking.


  • #8201
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,206 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    RabbleRouser2k wrote: »
    Hold your horses-Jackson is not coming back. In all likelihood he may never return to Irish Rugby.

    Ongoing protests and writing campaigns alone are gonna make his return unlikely.

    And as a spotlight is shone on his past actions, it's going to make it incredibly difficult for Irfu to allow his return.



    And yet despite it clearly being a consensual act, with Smith I mean, he was sent home by his team in disgrace. And given a written warning. No court case, and no woman left distressed.
    Still had a major investigation carried out. The problem arises in that a rape complainant is allowed remain anonymous-so it's much harder to garner what did go on that night.

    Smith got busted in an airport toilet with a woman who wasn't his partner because some prudish busybody saw them go in, recorded the noises and filmed them coming out straightening their clothes. The prude then sent the video to the media. Her husband actually said he was embarrassed she did that.

    Smith was sent home and suspended because he was in uniform. And had to sort out the fact he was caught cheating. His partner is still with him.

    Jerome Kaino left an All Blacks trip because a story broke about him cheating. No suspension just took personal leave.

    Roger Randle went through a similar situation to Jackson and Olding. A woman in South Africa accused him of rape. I think he was arrested. Turned out they had consensual sex in his hotel room, then he kicked her out and she cried rape.

    The only player I ever heard losing his place in a team/get fired for sexual indiscretions was a NZ back now playing in France, who when his missus found out about his cheating, he ratted his teammates out.


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  • #8202
    BBDBB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    I'm just watching Joe Brolly on +1 The Late Late. Speaking of his dad in Long Kesh, meeting Loyalist paramilitary Andy Tyrie.

    Very interesting. 'We're all multi faceted beings, we are capable of great good and wild, wild things... But everyone deserves forgiveness.'

    In the context of this thread thought provoking.

    From the other side of the forgiveness angle
    Its a fine line between justice and vengence


  • #8203
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    BBDBB wrote: »
    From the other side of the forgiveness angle
    Its a fine line between justice and vengence

    in this case what " forgiveness" is relevant


  • #8204
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    BBDBB wrote: »
    From the other side of the forgiveness angle
    Its a fine line between justice and vengence

    It is.. The area is as grey as grey can be.

    At the end of the day we just don't know what went on. But when the defendants were found not guilty you have to accepte the judicial process as part of democracy.

    As we can see on here, ethics, morality, whether the lads should play again. It's all dependent on our very diverging views.


  • #8205
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    It is.. The area is as grey as grey can be.

    At the end of the day we just don't know what went on. But when the defendants were found not guilty you have to accepte the judicial process as part of democracy.

    As we can see on here, ethics, morality, whether the lads should play again. It's all dependent on our very diverging views.

    +1, what distresses me in this case is an attempt to have an alternative trial by media/feminists advocates


  • #8206
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    BoatMad wrote: »
    in this case what " forgiveness" is relevant

    Forgiveness for the poor choice of language used, which many found offensive, if we accept the not guilty verdict of rape.


  • #8207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 9,117 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BBDBB wrote: »
    If you are correct, (and you may well be) from the point of view of those making the decision would they necessarily appreciate the difference you are pointing out? From their perspective it is what it is, they know no different, they dont manage a club side and probably never have, they manage and are invested in the province, including its history and culture and community. I dont see how a club side would view themselves as significantly different in making the decisions if they were faced with them

    Long story short, you may well be right about it being an added dimension, Im not sure it makes that significant a difference to the decision to be made or the factors influencing them

    My perspective is that the "court of public opinion" probably has more weight when related to a Province or Country than it does when applied to a Club.

    I'm not claiming to be "right" - but I think it's something being overlooked in the discussions on this thread.



    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    His contract is with the IRFU, not Ulster rugby.

    Who? I'm not referring to anyone in particular in my discussion relating to this particular topic. I'm talking in general, all players, who play for either a Province or Country, and for any sport for that matter.


  • #8208
    BBDBB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    BoatMad wrote: »
    in this case what " forgiveness" is relevant


    indeed, it is a personal and entirely subjective concept

    Some will say it is not given
    Others will say it is
    and others will say its not necessary in relation to the decisions yet to be made about the two players playing futures


    who's right? depends on your point of view


  • #8209
    almostover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭almostover


    BBDBB wrote: »
    I think the reality is somewhere between the two

    The balance for sponsors is different to Ulster/IRFU

    At the moment Olding & Jackson have become figures of hate and a target for those with a legitimate complaint, thats not good for business to be associated with

    However
    1) They were found not guilty of all charges (in under 4 hours- very quickly)
    2) Their unsavoury texts were a private conversation that would have remained so without the court case
    3) They have already served two years (approx) away from their chosen profession and missed out already on potential honours.


    Ulster/IRFU have a difficult decision to make,
    The reality is that public opinion vacillates and swings, time dampens fervour and public denouncements from official bodies sound great but don't necessarily mean permanent decisions are an absolute finality


    My guess is that they'll delay a decision, the season is nearly over, they'll re-evaluate their eligibility and suitability for starting next season and let the international prospects become problematic or a non-issue as and when form and injury dictates

    Pretty accurate summation


  • #8210
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    When you talk of personal feeling on a public forum you're really dealing in pure guessing.

    But for some reason i feel more general remorse from Stuart Olding. Paddy seems to be playing PR catch up. And i just don't feel as 'forgiving' as i do towards Olding. Pure bull personal interpretation i know!


  • #8211
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    Forgiveness for the poor choice of language used, which many found offensive, if we accept the not guilty verdict of rape.

    it is not up to you to " accept " anything , the law was not broken as determined by the judicial process , we do not prosecute " thought crime " , even if some semi-histerical journos advocate that

    where we to seek " forgiveness " for language , half the country would be in confessionals !


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  • #8212
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,850 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BoatMad wrote: »
    +1, what distresses me in this case is an attempt to have an alternative trial by media/feminists advocates

    The hoo ha seems to have died down if my FB is anything to go by.

    A one week wonder to be replaced by outrage about McGregor.


  • #8213
    BBDBB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    My perspective is that the "court of public opinion" probably has more weight when related to a Province or Country than it does when applied to a Club.

    I'm not claiming to be "right" - but I think it's something being overlooked in the discussions on this thread.


    Perhaps, however I think we can extrapolate to other club sides, especially those named after their home town or city and say they would feel equally aggrieved, ie no more or less than a provincial side


  • #8214
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The hoo ha seems to have died down if my FB is anything to go by.

    A one week wonder to be replaced by outrage about McGregor.

    indeed


  • #8215
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,850 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BoatMad wrote: »
    it is not up to you to " accept " anything , the law was not broken as determined by the judicial process , we do not prosecute " thought crime " , even if some semi-histerical journos advocate that

    where we to seek " forgiveness " for language , half the country would be in confessionals !

    Or 'chains', if some who commented on this thread had their way. :)


  • #8216
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    BBDBB wrote: »
    indeed, it is a personal and entirely subjective concept

    Some will say it is not given
    Others will say it is
    and others will say its not necessary in relation to the decisions yet to be made about the two players playing futures


    who's right? depends on your point of view

    what is clear is they are entitled to be judged as if the case never happened because in effect judicially , it didnt

    again the situation of in-camera rape trails in the Republic is a far better situation then what happened here , for both appellant and defendant


  • #8217
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    My problem is actually not so much with the language the lads used but with older people who should no better saying it's just banter. We have to move on from that attitude. The times are different. Those men are repeating what goes on in the bubble. But leaders have to have the courage, in all aspects of life, to say no this is wrong rather than trying to be one of the lads.

    Education...


  • #8218
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Or 'chains', if some who commented on this thread had their way. :)

    indeed, the reaction of people somehow advocating that the mere accusation of rape is sufficient , is truly troubling


  • #8219
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 9,117 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BBDBB wrote: »
    From the other side of the forgiveness angle
    Its a fine line between justice and vengence

    I'm not getting involved in either justice or vengeance.

    I'm not getting involved in discussions re: the legal decision made in the NI courts. That's done with.

    Personally though, I don't agree with certain actions outlined and admitted throughout the trial that were done by certain people towards a certain person. I don't believe they are appropriate of someone representing a Province or Country. Nothing to do with legality. And nothing to do with forgiveness. I just don't agree that someone who behaved in such a manner, should represent Ireland or a Province in Ireland. that's all. Is that unreasonable?


  • #8220
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    I've being debating back and forth for one evening with Ruman, Francie, Fann Linn. But the more i reflect, the more i am coming around to sharing their viewpoint that it would be a travesty if they didn't get to play rugby in Ireland.

    Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..None of us are perfect. They have been found not guilty in court.


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  • #8221
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,850 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    My problem is actually not so much with the language the lads used but with older people who should no better saying it's just banter. We have to move on from that attitude. The times are different. Those men are repeating what goes on in the bubble. But leaders have to have the courage, in all aspects of life, to say no this is wrong rather than trying to be one of the lads.

    Education...

    Instead of lecturing others, why don't you start your 'educational drive' on this site? Plenty of threads here objectifying women and consequently demeaning them.


This discussion has been closed.
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