Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

BoatMad

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Twitter is still going mad. So is Facebook. The balls.ie comments alone are none too kind regarding Jackson's recent comments.

So it's not dying down-the McGregor story is just another day of McGregor being McGregor. Even Miriam's 'I'm not running for Prez' comment is 'blah'.

A full page advert in Irish Times called for his non-return. It's not dying down, even his apology is being called out as a non-apology, or a tactic to get back into the game.

Some comments are of the 'start learning French, boys'.

yes , its disgraceful , a key tenet of the justice system is the presumption of innocence, remove that and you descend into thuggery , yet there seem to many " advocates " of that simply because a women shouts rape

FrancieBrady

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Twitter is still going mad. So is Facebook. The balls.ie comments alone are none too kind regarding Jackson's recent comments.

So it's not dying down-the McGregor story is just another day of McGregor being McGregor. Even Miriam's 'I'm not running for Prez' comment is 'blah'.

A full page advert in Irish Times called for his non-return. It's not dying down, even his apology is being called out as a non-apology, or a tactic to get back into the game.

Some comments are of the 'start learning French, boys'.

I haven't seen a comment all day on my Facebook, and I follow a good few rugby related pages. My page was full of it generally for a few days, more or less gone now too.
Maybe on the more extreme pages it is factoring.

I feel fairly certain time will diffuse this one.

RuMan

So any word on the autumn international fixtures yet? I'm hearing NZ, Argies and a Tier 2 team which could be a perfect low profile opportunity for Jacko to return to the national side.

BoatMad

NAGDEFI wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. Anything you type today, you have to be so careful, especially public figures like them. I don't look on anything sent on a phone as private..it can be halfway around the world in a second.

Again education.

of course , you are right , but primarily because our laws on privacy are only beginning to catch up with technology.

I do not expect public figures to hold themselves to any greater standard then ordinary average people , I certainly dont expect some form of public virtue and private vice situation , its in effect a form of hyprocrasy

Mrsmum

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry , it was made public as a result of the judicial process , they are entitled to their privacy , merely because I , say , use , what app , do not entitle you or anyone to sit in judgement as to my language and then suggest I publicly apologise for it , this is getting very close to "thought crime" or form of witchcraft trials

Let's imagine a tape became public of Mary Loo McDonald secretly laughing at northern people. saying ye were all thick as planks (insert as many ugly insults as you like)and that she has ye by the short & curlies, would that be ok because it was a private laugh she was having ?

NAGDEFI

BBDBB wrote: »

exactly, I suspect that like you, I consider myself to be a moral and not a vengeful person, by the same token Im also aware of my faults and my failings over the years when tested. Im a human being, I try to be good and sometimes I make mistakes.

In the past I have been asked to evaluate the behaviour of others and whilst the deliberations are exceedingly tough if you have to make a call, one way or the other, eventually you have to decide, maybe after a debate with someone else, or maybe you just have to listen to your conscience and make a call that you can live with, and accept that not everyone will clap you on the back and say well don, great decision

Also when in a group it takes (Johnny Giles speak!) moral courage to not use the same language, do as the others do. Serious character.

I think we've all been in a situation when someone was being bullied and we cursed ourselves after for not having stood up for that person.I have anyway. Not now but in my late teens.

BBDBB

BBDBB wrote: »

The second point of interest is the scale of forgiveness. How long should such a ban on an international career last?
Til the end of his career?
A few years?
Time already served?

Same questions for a Provincial career?

At some point the punishment against behaviour thats unsavoury and inappropriate becomes unfair and too severe. Even without minimising the offence.

Funny you should say that. On another thread, I mentioned that I "might" "consider" voting for Bertie Ahern as President "if" the circumstances were of a certain nature.
For some posters, that's inconceivable. It's like some people saying they'll never watch another film with "X actor accused of y crimes"- some people are "absolute" and "never' means just that.

FrancieBrady

Mrsmum wrote: »

Let's imagine a tape became public of Mary Loo McDonald secretly laughing at northern people. saying ye were all thick as planks (insert as many ugly insults as you like)and that she has ye by the short & curlies, would that be ok because it was a private laugh she was having ?

Look at Iris and Peter Robinson as a prime example of public figures being allowed to sort things out and resume a public life.

I like the 'Loo' reference, typo or demeaning nickname?

NAGDEFI

Just on a possible return to Ulster/Ireland for Jackson/Olding.

What this case will have taken out of them is a massive variable. Away from top quality games and who knows about their mental state.

If truly innocent... that it's a real travesty.

Mrsmum

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Look at Iris and Peter Robinson as a prime example of public figures being allowed to sort things out and resume a public life.

I like the 'Loo' reference, typo or demeaning nickname?

Sorry to Mary Lou,that was a typo.

mfceiling

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Johnny McPhillips, McCarthy.. a huge cue ahead of him now and he may never reach the standards he reached against Scotland in the 2013 6 Nations again..

Ah here lads I'm going to have to call you all out on this.
There really is no queue in front of Jackson bar Sexton.
Whoever mentioned Madigan obviously doesn't follow rugby because he's plying his trade outside of Ireland and therefore will not be considered for selection here.
Keatley is flaky. Carberry has only a couple of starts at 10. Byrne has never made a squad.
McPhillips has only had a couple of games for Ulster and McCarthy is a reasonable Pro 12 player and nothing else.

We get that you have an axe to grind here but the simple fact is that Jackson is the second best fly half in Ireland. End of.

Edit....somebody else mentioned JJ at Munster. He can't even get a regular spot on the Munster team never mind play 10 for Ireland.

RuMan

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Also when in a group it takes (Johnny Giles speak!) moral courage to not use the same language, do as the others do. Serious character.

I think we've all been in a situation when someone was being bullied and we cursed ourselves after for not having stood up for that person.I have anyway. Not now but in my late teens.

The Ulster boys stood up to the bullys tonight. Remind you of the Ireland team in Saipan after Keane left in many ways. Adversity often brings players closer together.
Real encouraging signs there tonight, a young team with an Inteternational outhalf to return. I think were all feeling very positive about the future of Ulster Rugby.

BBDBB

Deleted User wrote: »

My personal view is that press releases and public statements in general are only as good as the PR advice they're based on. I'm usually cynical of them most of the time (especially US celebrity press releases) as they are designed to manipulate public opinion, usually for personal gain, but I'm also willing to accept aspects of them in certain circumstances.

I'm cynical in general, of the public statements made post trial in this case, in terms of their motivation and what they are designed to achieve. Why bother make them public?
if it's for personal gain, then I'm not interested in listening to them- you don't have to release a public statement. Just talk or write to the people who matter most on the topic you're issuing a statement on. You don't have to tell everyone.

I think more and more people are increasingly cynical. With all the advances of 24 hour rolling news coverage, twitter and other social media and the advances made in the science of PR, propaganda, spin and fake news its difficult not to believe.

For me I find myself asking whats more likely
Is it genuine or is it spin. If its spin, what else holds water in the statement?. If its genuine what else would back it up in terms of other evidence?

For me, I do see some well crafted phraseology in PJs statement which suggests it was thought through and crafted, not just thrown together. I think its an interesting and significant choice for the statement to introduce the topic of family values. Of all the ways to make a public apology its unusual and atypical. For me, That makes it more genuine, though I accept I may be falling for a double bluff but once I get into that territory the whole thing just gets nonsensical. Its timing is the nagging doubt, its a bit late, but then again maybe thats only in comparison to SO's statement. Although if both statements had been released together would they both have suffered a cynical reaction? Probably


I dont have an answer, but thinking about it is an interesting exercise

NAGDEFI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Look at Iris and Peter Robinson as a prime example of public figures being allowed to sort things out and resume a public life.

I like the 'Loo' reference, typo or demeaning nickname?

How is Iris Robinson these days?! And Kirk.. That was mad..

BoatMad

Mrsmum wrote: »

Let's imagine a tape became public of Mary Loo McDonald secretly laughing at northern people. saying ye were all thick as planks (insert as many ugly insults as you like)and that she has ye by the short & curlies, would that be ok because it was a private laugh she was having ?

yes, because who am I to judge what a person does in private , I would more prefer to see the release of such information prosecuted then expect the perpetrator to apologise

take your argument further and you are close to thought crime

almostover

Mrsmum wrote: »

Sorry to Mary Lou,that was a typo.

A Freudian slip perhaps?😂

NAGDEFI

RuMan wrote: »

The Ulster boys stood up to the bullys tonight. Remind you of the Ireland team in Saipan after Keane left in many ways. Adversity often brings players closer together.
Real encouraging signs there tonight, a young team with an Inteternational outhalf to return. I think were all feeling very positive about the future of Ulster Rugby.

That emotion only lasts so long though. We had it with Axel (RIP) last year but come Saracens in the ERC semi...that emotion was well gone.

I think Ulster should be progressing Johnny McPhillips, apart from the Jackson case at all. Top class fly half who played in a WC U20 final.

BBDBB

BBDBB wrote: »

I dont have an answer, but thinking about it is an interesting exercise

It certainly keeps boards.ie in business:p

BBDBB

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Also when in a group it takes (Johnny Giles speak!) moral courage to not use the same language, do as the others do. Serious character.

I think we've all been in a situation when someone was being bullied and we cursed ourselves after for not having stood up for that person.I have anyway. Not now but in my late teens.

Spot on, I haven't mentioned the ingredients to speaking out about a decision but you are right, the courage to stand by your decision and express it, calmly and without rising to the shots taken at you, your morals, your personality, education, intelligence, etc is really tough at times.

NAGDEFI

mfceiling wrote: »

Ah here lads I'm going to gave to call you all out on this.
There really is no queue in front of Jackson bar Sexton.
Whoever mentioned Madigan obviously doesn't follow rugby because he's plying his trade outside of Ireland and therefore will not be considered for selection here.
Keatley is flaky. Carberry has only a couple of starts at 10. Byrne has never made a squad.
McPhillips has only had a couple of games for Ulster and McCarthy is a reasonable Pro 12 player and nothing else.

We get that you have an axe to grind here but the simple fact is that Jackson is the second best fly half in Ireland. End of.

Tongue in cheek for RuMan:p

He 'was' our second best outhalf. We'll have to see him play a few games before we can judge now. 2 yrs out, rape case.. how's the mind and body..

RuMan

mfceiling wrote: »

Ah here lads I'm going to gave to call you all out on this.
There really is no queue in front of Jackson bar Sexton.
Whoever mentioned Madigan obviously doesn't follow rugby because he's plying his trade outside of Ireland and therefore will not be considered for selection here.
Keatley is flaky. Carberry has only a couple of starts at 10. Byrne has never made a squad.
McPhillips has only had a couple of games for Ulster and McCarthy is a reasonable Pro 12 player and nothing else.

We get that you have an axe to grind here but the simple fact is that Jackson is the second best fly half in Ireland. End of.

Good post.
Sexton would be far ahead but realistically as we build up for the rugby football world cup we need real choices in all position.
I like Carbery but like Madigan he wont get much chance to play 10 at Leinster.
Jackson looked like he could start to push Sexton on that SA tour. It will be hard for him to get back to that level but given how far he is ahead of the others would like to get him back ASAP.
We dont want a sutuation where if Sexton gets injured we have no alternative in the WC.

RabbleRouser2k

jm08 wrote: »

Kathy Sheridan has a different take on the responsibilities of sports people.
Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not
I'd sat Kathy has a good insight into rugby culture, bearing in mind who her husband was.

I'd say so as well. There was a discussion of this on Pat Kenny too-interesting, despite Ruth Coppinger being there.

I think there's a sad douchebag 'environment' in sports, tbh. A lot of the time the sports teams are protected by the schools or third level places-they want those medals.
You'd always get a couple of A-holes. I don't think they quite copped that their 'throne' was gone once they received a major injury-and many of them did.
After that they were no better than anyone.

Jackson reminds me of too many of them-the guy who thought he was king of the world, and is now in the gutters. His 'apology' doesn't look good in light of his suing so many.
He can't really 'win', so to speak.

mfceiling

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Tongue in cheek for RuMan:p

He 'was' our second best outhalf. We'll have to see him play a few games before we can judge now. 2 yrs out, rape case.. how's the mind and body..

The body will be perfect. 2 years out where any knocks, niggles or strains have had time to heal.
I wouldn't worry about the mind either...he has showed he's mentally strong in the past with Ulster and Ireland.
If anything I'd say he's even more determined to get back on a field to show off his talent.

BBDBB

Deleted User wrote: »

Funny you should say that. On another thread, I mentioned that I "might" "consider" voting for Bertie Ahern as President "if" the circumstances were of a certain nature.
For some posters, that's inconceivable. It's like some people saying they'll never watch another film with "X actor accused of y crimes"- some people are "absolute" and "never' means just that.

Throwing myself upon the mercy of the boards court I would include myself in that. Theres shops and restaurants that I won't set foot inside, tradespeople and companies I refuse to use and people I will actively avoid online and in real life.
As I said, Im not in a position to judge others, but I do anyway and think Im right to do so. Sometimes with little real or lasting justification. Im a stubborn bugger and telling me Im wrong doesnt tend to get me open minded and ripe for change, so I tend towards less confrontational stances these days because I tend to create positions from which I find it difficult to climb down from

RuMan

NAGDEFI wrote: »

That emotion only lasts so long though. We had it with Axel (RIP) last year but come Saracens in the ERC semi...that emotion was well gone.

I think Ulster should be progressing Johnny McPhillips, apart from the Jackson case at all. Top class fly half who played in a WC U20 final.

Eh no. Decent game tonight but no more then a good prospect.
Its like saying Leinster should ditch Sexton and play Carbery.
Ulster already have the 2nd best Irish OH why would they replace him with a kid?

NAGDEFI

mfceiling wrote: »

The body will be perfect. 2 years out where any knocks, niggles or strains have had time to heal.
I wouldn't worry about the mind either...he has showed he's mentally strong in the past with Ulster and Ireland.
If anything I'd say he's even more determined to get back on a field to show off his talent.

Oh yes a nice fresh body, but he may not adjust to the pace. Take 2 years from a guy 24-26, peak years. Some don't return to their former glory.

Even Ali lost his sheer speed and brilliance after his enforced exile. Relied on soaking up punishment more, rope a dope etc.

FrancieBrady

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I'd say so as well. There was a discussion of this on Pat Kenny too-interesting, despite Ruth Coppinger being there.

I think there's a sad douchebag 'environment' in sports, tbh. A lot of the time the sports teams are protected by the schools or third level places-they want those medals.
You'd always get a couple of A-holes. I don't think they quite copped that their 'throne' was gone once they received a major injury-and many of them did.
After that they were no better than anyone.

Jackson reminds me of too many of them-the guy who thought he was king of the world, and is now in the gutters. His 'apology' doesn't look good in light of his suing so many.
He can't really 'win', so to speak.

The idea that sports people should be automatic role models was always a flawed and dangerous truism.

Today, too many are being revealed as drugged wanna be's with feet of clay.

We should be teaching our young that sport is entertainment just like any other and that 'role models' in any endeavour/career earn that status. Otherwise they are the same as everybody else.

RuMan

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Oh yes a nice fresh body, but he may not adjust to the pace. Take 2 years from a guy 24-26, peak years. Some don't return to their former glory.

Even Ali lost his sheer speed and brilliance after his enforced exile. Relied on soaking up punishment more, rope a dope etc.

Eh he played for Ireland against Japan in June 2017 mate.

NAGDEFI

RuMan wrote: »

Eh no. Decent game tonight but no more then a good prospect.
Its like saying Leinster should ditch Sexton and play Carbery.
Ulster already have the 2nd best Irish OH why would they replace him with a kid?

Sexton for Carberry. Sexton is 33 this summer and injury prone.

Also Jackson isn't in the same league, never was, as Sexton. Sexton 3 European Cups, steered Ireland to 2 Championships and a Grand Slam this year.

Jackson.. ERC final appearance in 2012. There are a few outhalves who could easily reach his standard, like Ross Byrne. Jackson is no Campbell, O'Gara or Sexton. Barely functional international outhalf.

McPhillips has potential. You never win anything with kids.. Alan Hansen on Man U 1996 when they won the double with a very young team. If you're good enough you're old enough.

BBDBB

BBDBB wrote: »

Throwing myself upon the mercy of the boards court I would include myself in that. Theres shops and restaurants that I won't set foot inside, tradespeople and companies I refuse to use and people I will actively avoid online and in real life.
As I said, Im not in a position to judge others, but I do anyway and think Im right to do so. Sometimes with little real or lasting justification. Im a stubborn bugger and telling me Im wrong doesnt tend to get me open minded and ripe for change, so I tend towards less confrontational stances these days because I tend to create positions from which I find it difficult to climb down from

That's fair enough. We all have our limits depending on the issue at hand. And I don't judge others on their views; I just tend to state my own view. But that doesn't always happen on boards.ie - value judgments of other posters views tend to be commonplace which does annoy me.