Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

You need to look at the history of why the SCC was set up.
It was for subversive cases and now it includes gangland cases where witnesses might be intimidated and as such is juryless.
The Central Criminal Court hears most murder and rape cases and it has a jury.

Correct, it exists to tackle organised crime, in which there is a culture of murder! Whether we like to admit that this is also a part of Irish culture is another thing.

Answer me this. Why are League of Ireland games so heavily policed?

hill16bhoy · 03-04-2018 09:31PM

Creol1 wrote: »

My recollection is that the radio host in question was widely condemned and his career effectively ended.

He was widely condemned by reasonable people.

He was widely supported by idiots who couldn't comprehend the meaning of his words.

Creol1 wrote: »

Further to this, I would point out that, as per the below link, male-majority juries are more likely to convict men accused of rape than female-majority juries. A bit odd for a male-centred rape culture.

I would also note that not only is rape utterly unacceptable to the vast majority of men, but in prisons with the most hardened criminals, e.g., murderers, arsonists, you will actually find that rapists need protection and are often kept apart from other prisoners in the interests of their own safety. That is the opposite of what you would expect if we lived in a "rape culture".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/stanford-rape-case-female-dominated-juries-less-likely-to-convict-in-rape-cases-404525.html

There is a widespread culture of rape within prisons.

The Belfast trial, and this thread, have demonstrated that many men don't even know what constitutes rape or consent.

tritium · 03-04-2018 09:32PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Actually there is ya...there is the existence in this country of a Special Criminal Court....it is juryless...it exists for a very good reason.

The fact that the vast majority of us do not engage in murder does not negate that courts existence.

Seriously mate you don’t know what the **** your on about

Hint : the special criminal court doesn’t exist for the reasons you seem to think or imply

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:33PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Theres a lot more to this sorry mess than is being made available. I dont think it was thrown out on just the DF evidence.

Theres learnings for both jurisdictions, not to increase the conviction rate, but to ensure a fairer system exists for both complainant and defendant though.

I am only referring to the people on this thread and elsewhere who have indicated their opinion, and to be fair, a lot of posters have indicated that very testimony as the reason they believed she was not telling the truth, read back over the thread if you don't believe me!

We of course are not privy to all the facts of this case.

tayto lover · 03-04-2018 09:33PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Correct, it exists to tackle organised crime, in which there is a culture of murder! Whether we like to admit that this is also a part of Irish culture is another thing.

Answer me this. Why are League of Ireland games so heavily policed?

Ah FFS. Now you're just waffling for the sake of it. Your posts are not worth responding to.

hill16bhoy · 03-04-2018 09:34PM

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

This is not a "culture" you are describing rape as if it is part of Irish culture... It is not.

To suggest it is a culture would suggest every man in Ireland finds it acceptable..... They don't!

Again, you demonstrate a very basic misunderstanding of what culture is.

Only a tiny minority of people in Ireland play traditional music.

According to your logic, there is no culture of playing traditional music in Ireland.

tayto lover · 03-04-2018 09:36PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

He was widely condemned by reasonable people.

He was widely supported by idiots who couldn't comprehend the meaning of his words.

There is a widespread culture of rape within prisons.

The Belfast trial, and this thread, have demonstrated that many men don't even know what constitutes rape or consent.

Not so. You're watching too much Love/Hate.

Amirani · 03-04-2018 09:37PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Again, you demonstrate a very basic misunderstanding of what culture is.

Only a tiny minority of people in Ireland play traditional music.

According to your logic, there is no culture of playing traditional music in Ireland.

Also by that logic, there's a culture of absolutely everything in Ireland that some people are involved in. Including, both raping and not raping I guess? So we have simultaneously a "rape culture" and a "non rape culture".

Fair? Pretty silly and meaningless though no?

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:37PM

tritium wrote: »

Seriously mate you don’t know what the **** your on about

Hint : the special criminal court doesn’t exist for the reasons you seem to think or imply

Why does it exist then.

Does it not exist to help the state fight organised crime.

Does Irish organised crime not have a culture of murder?

It would be nice if you demonstrated some respect please, just because I am not throwing profanities at you doesn't make you right!

Roger Hassenforder · 03-04-2018 09:38PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am only referring to the people on this thread and elsewhere who have indicated their opinion, and to be fair, a lot of posters have indicated that very testimony as the reason they believed she was not telling the truth, read back over the thread if you don't believe me!

We of course are not privy to all the facts of this case.

I agree it might have been the icing on the cake for many.
Id say her two statements to the police would be interesting reading though. Her second more detailed one, seeing her become of less value to the prosecution, and of more to the defence.
(Of all the people potentially lying, i just hope it wasnt her, and saw guilty men go free).

hill16bhoy · 03-04-2018 09:38PM

tritium wrote: »

No I’ve demonstrated that I think you’re talking ****e since I in no way would take what you described as cultural norms

Yeah, you've demonstrated clearly that you think I'm talking ****e.

In terms of actually demonstrating that I am talking ****e, you've made no headway whatsoever.

You quite obviously have a vested interest in dismissing that there is a rape culture.

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:41PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah FFS. Now you're just waffling for the sake of it. Your posts are not worth responding to.

I am talking about another facet of Irish culture, albeit one not as emotive as this it seems!!

In an attempt to help you understand the point we are discussing, if you don't have an answer then fair enough.

tayto lover · 03-04-2018 09:43PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Yeah, you've demonstrated clearly that you think I'm talking ****e.

In terms of actually demonstrating that I am talking ****e, you've made no headway whatsoever.

You quite obviously have a vested interest in dismissing that there is a rape culture.

Maybe you'd give us some stats on the culture of widespread rape in our prisons as you claimed?

emeraldwinter · 03-04-2018 09:43PM

I really cant understand what consent classes are going to achieve. Those that rape will still rape. It seems to me that this is being pushed by certain groups that studied gender studies or some other voodoo. Realised there were only a finite number of jobs now pushing these classes to create work. How will this increase the conviction rate for rape ? And I take issue with some politicians pushing the idea they came up with what the peoples assembly recommended.

tayto lover · 03-04-2018 09:44PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am talking about another facet of Irish culture, albeit one not as emotive as this it seems!!

In an attempt to help you understand the point we are discussing, if you don't have an answer then fair enough.

Well then your attempt was poor and resembled waffling.

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2018 09:44PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Again, you demonstrate a very basic misunderstanding of what culture is.

Only a tiny minority of people in Ireland play traditional music.

According to your logic, there is no culture of playing traditional music in Ireland.

What you're describing isn't culture, it's a hobby.

Traditional Irish music is part of Irish culture; rape, is not.

Tsipras · 03-04-2018 09:45PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Does Irish organised crime not have a culture of murder?

culture of murder, wtf are you on about

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:45PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Well then your attempt was poor and resembled waffling.

Why would you call it waffling though.

It is common enough to cite other examples of Irish culture, in a discussion about Irish culture is it not?

How is that waffle?

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:47PM

Tsipras wrote: »

culture of murder, wtf are you on about

OK there is no culture of murder in Irish Organised crime.

The Special Criminal Court is a figment of my imagination.

Now, where's that big huge Irish made carpet we sweep all our problems under?

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:48PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What you're describing isn't culture, it's a hobby.

Traditional Irish music is part of Irish culture; rape, is not.

Is Irish crime apart of Irish culture?

hill16bhoy · 03-04-2018 09:48PM

Amirani wrote: »

Also by that logic, there's a culture of absolutely everything in Ireland that some people are involved in. Including, both raping and not raping I guess? So we have simultaneously a "rape culture" and a "non rape culture".

Fair? Pretty silly and meaningless though no?

There are many different cultures.

If you want to call reasonable, non-misogynist behaviour "non-rape culture", go right ahead if you feel the need to do so!

As I said, a tiny minority of people in Ireland attend League of Ireland games regularly or play in rock bands. Both of those things are cultures.

I would strongly suggest that the numbers of those who engage in manifestations of rape culture is a hell of a lot higher than those who attend League of Ireland matches regularly or play in bands.

emeraldwinter · 03-04-2018 09:49PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

OK there is no culture of murder in Irish Organised crime.

The Special Criminal Court is a figment of my imagination.

Now, where's that big huge Irish made carpet we sweep all our problems under?

OK, Lets change organised crime to Travellers just for an example is that true ? Or is there a culture of murder in Islam ??

examples here devils advocate.

foxyladyxx · 03-04-2018 09:50PM

Tipcorlad wrote: »

The conviction rate is so low because we have a legal system that is stacked against a victim of rape.
It is so low because of the rape myths that are so common in everyday life, many seen here on tbis thread
It is so low because reasonable doubt has been made out by defence laywers to be any doubt at all, not any reasonable doubt. I believe that girls account but based on the law i couldnt have found them guilty as there is always room for a tiny bit of doubt in a he said she said. But the evidence should carry the most weight. A woman can have an internal tear, be seen to be hysterical by a completely independant witness, have bloodstained clothes, have her blood on the duvet where she claims to have been raped, tell friends immediately, have a medical exam within 24hrs, go to the police and still it is not enough.
I think a rape case (possibly all criminal cases) should be judged by judges who are specially trained to disregard rape myths.
The new Icelandic law seems positive. Enthusiastic consent. What everyman having sex should want.

The ladt originally accused Olding of vaginal rape. These charges were later dropped. How could the jury convict if they couldn't decide who did what in Jackson's bedroom .Come to that we may never know either because it would appear that a great deal of alcohol was comsumed.

Luxxis · 03-04-2018 09:53PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

There are many different cultures.

If you want to call reasonable, non-misogynist behaviour "non-rape culture", go right ahead if you feel the need to do so!

As I said, a tiny minority of people in Ireland attend League of Ireland games regularly or play in rock bands. Both of those things are cultures.

I would strongly suggest that the numbers of those who engage in manifestations of rape culture is a hell of a lot higher than those who attend League of Ireland matches regularly or play in bands.

But we know how many people attend League games. 200k, from what i googled over a season.

You gave what one example of what you call "Rape culture"

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 09:54PM

emeraldwinter wrote: »

OK, Lets change organised crime to Travellers just for an example is that true ? Or is there a culture of murder in Islam ??

examples here devils advocate.

There is a culture of violent feuds in Irish Traveller communities, that does not mean that all Travellers engage in violent feuds!
There is a culture of crime in all societies, some have bigger problems than others, it is apart of life, why deny it?

ShowMeTheCash · 03-04-2018 09:55PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I'm not particularly interested in what terms you have or haven't heard.

Do you believe there is a culture of racism amongst, say, members of the BNP or the EDL in Britain or the National Front in France?

Was there a culture of racism in English football crowds in the 1970s?

A culture of racism is a racist culture.

OK you don't understand the term you are using cultural racism does not mean a "racist culture".

Also factions within any society is not to suggest it is a part of the culture. The BNP got half a million votes in the 2010 election but the term "racist culture" is not an argument I see anyone try and make...

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Examples of cultures of criminality include the Dublin gang culture,

The term culture in these cases albeit the wrong word it is an attempt to show the normalization of crime in a specific area.
It is not a part of the culture if anything it is an anti-cultural concept but it grabs the headlines.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The drink driving culture in rural areas, and the culture of tax evasion among white collar types in this country in the 1980s and 1990s.

Again the term being used in very specific subset where there is nuance. It would be like saying "Acceptable criminality"

hill16bhoy wrote: »

A culture which fails to recognise things that are categorically rape as rape.

Give an example please?

hill16bhoy wrote: »

which seeks to mitigate rape, which seeks to put any blame for rape onto victims.

No one is trying to mitigate rape, you have made that up by your own crazy feminist logic. You also want to conflate fault with responsibility.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

which seeks to out complainants and brand them as a "liar"

Again crazy feminist logic coming out, nobody is trying to brand anyone as a liar unless of course it has been shown that they have lied.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Accepting any of that means you are a participant in rape culture.
I get all this just fine, thanks.
Many clearly don't.

Of course that's what you think.... But it does not mean there is a rape culture nor are we participating in it.... The rape culture exists more so in your own head nowhere else!

emeraldwinter · 03-04-2018 09:56PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

There is a culture of violent feuds in Irish Traveller communities, that does not mean that all Travellers engage in violent feuds!
There is a culture of crime in all societies, some have bigger problems than others, it is apart of life, why deny it?

ShowMeTheCash · 03-04-2018 09:59PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Again, you demonstrate a very basic misunderstanding of what culture is.

Only a tiny minority of people in Ireland play traditional music.

According to your logic, there is no culture of playing traditional music in Ireland.

I will repeat myself

Culture refers to social norms and acceptable behavior in society. It refers to laws and traditions among many others.

I think traditional music falls under traditions.....

My logic stands where are your logic has failed to get off the floor!

Silentcorner · 03-04-2018 10:01PM

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I will repeat myself

Culture refers to social norms and acceptable behavior in society. It refers to laws and traditions among many others.

I think traditional music falls under traditions.....

My logic stands where are your logic has failed to get off the floor!

So culture refers only to the "good" things in society...

Right, I see where the problem is.

hill16bhoy · 03-04-2018 10:03PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What you're describing isn't culture, it's a hobby.

Traditional Irish music is part of Irish culture; rape, is not.

One of the definitions of culture in the Oxford dictionary is as follows:

"The attitudes and behaviour characteristic of a particular social group.
‘the emerging drug culture’"

The particular social group that engages in rape culture is young men, not exclusively, but usually.

All of the following are attitudes and/or behaviour characteristics and all are elements of rape culture.

A belief that if a woman doesn't fight or scream, it can't be rape.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Calling to vilify and publicly out a complainant in a rape trial.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped.

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms.

Calling women sluts, whores, brasses or other deliberately degrading terms.

Denying that there is a problem with any of this.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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