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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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  • #3002
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    In england 97% of abortions are carried out on the grounds of a threat to mental health of the mother.
    Most people would describe what they have in england as abortion on demand/request.
    In england abortion on these grounds is available up to 24 weeks.

    Under Simon Harris's proposed legislation abortion would be available in Ireland under almost identical mental health grounds
    Just like in england this would be available up to 24 weeks.

    To repeat, 97% of abortions in england are allowed on these grounds.
    No one makes any effort to police them. Its abortion on demand/request up to 24 weeks.
    Abortions signed off after just a phonecall: How Marie Stopes doctors approve abortions for women they've never met

    24 is just a number.
    Here's what a 24 week old child in the womb actually looks like.
    https://youtu.be/3ekjvgE5mo4?t=31s

    Here's a child delivered at 23 weeks who's now a happy and healthy 3 year old.
    https://youtu.be/2RQ8ks-UH0E?t=22s

    nozzferrahhtoo is an articulate, considerate, pro choice poster on this site with a large following. Here's nozzferrahhtoo accepting the taking of a life like these.
    I certainly would not lose sleep over hearing an abortion at 24 weeks occurred, though I wish they wouldnt ever happen. But I see no reason to campaign for allowing it specifically. over 98% of abortions seem to happen by 16 weeks. So 16 weeks is around what I would campaign for. If they implemented 12 or 20 however, I would be more than content and happy with either.
    I'm not trying to make nozzferrahhtoo look bad. My point is that that's hardly a ringing endorsement of ending lives like those in the videos. Even nozzferrahhtoo sounds reluctant. You'd have to. You'd need to be psychotic to be fully on board for that.

    And nozzferrahhtoo certainly isn't that. I'm sure even nozzferrahhtoo doesn't contemplate taking those lives when he says
    Because what abortion actually is, is the termination of a fetus a significant period of time before it attains any of the attributes that meaningfully and justifiably anchor our moral and ethical concern, and concept of "rights".
    Even those who have been pushing for this referendum for years are going to have to hold their noses, close their eyes, shut down their doubts, in order to vote for this mess of a proposal.



    So where does that leave the rest of us?

    How the hell did they think people were going to vote for this? No country in the world where people were given a choice has ever gone for abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. Does that even need to be said?

    The way to have done this was change the 8th to allow an unpolicable wedge case like rape that would have opened the floodgates. Instead they worked themselves up in to a frenzy in the bubble of the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee and then put a political boy wonder in charge instead of an old political hand.

    It's weird that they expect us to vote Yes to this thing. It's not the way people think. It's not how people are.


  • #3003
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

    What a load of nonsense.

    The repeal will go through because its inhumane to make pregnant women go to a foreign country to terminate their pregnancy, regardless of why they are terminating the pregnancy.

    Also, the repeal only have to say "Savita" and everyone with any compassion or kindness will be voting repeal.

    Most people I know under 60 are sick to death of celibate old men telling them what to do in their bedrooms - while in some cases, doing exactly the same thing. The hypocrocy is sickening.

    Repeal all the way and all the posters, debates and bible bashers won't ever make me change my mind.


  • #3004
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3005
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Further, if anyone has the typical knee jerk reaction to these proposals I.e. that they're disgusting and horrific etc. (I did myself)
    I suggest doing a little reading, particularly about abortion in Canada.

    Canada has no limits, they "trust women" and late term abortion is rare and only done for medical reasons.


  • #3006
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    In england 97% ......

    We live in Ireland - different country - we don't care what they do in England - we are discussing our Constitution - England don't have a constituition and again, we don't care what they do.

    So where does that leave the rest of us?

    In case I wasn't clear enough in previous posts, I don't care about how you vote or pontificate or debate or lie or quote endless pro lifers saying blah blah blah

    Your opinion is clearly never going to change and guess what, nor is mine. we are poles apart. I don't care if you don't think the same way as me, thats democracy. Luckily, enough people do think like me and the 8th will be repealed.

    If you are a Bertie, this repeal will never physically affect you. If you are a "beatrice" then you are lucky that you will have a choice when the 8th is repealed and you can make up your mind to do what you like with your body.

    Repeal all the way - get the bible bashers away from my eggs!


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  • #3007
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,918 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    In england 97% of abortions are carried out on the grounds of a threat to mental health of the mother.
    Most people would describe what they have in england as abortion on demand/request.
    In england abortion on these grounds is available up to 24 weeks.

    Under Simon Harris's proposed legislation abortion would be available in Ireland under almost identical mental health grounds
    Just like in england this would be available up to 24 weeks.
    .

    You asked this before and i responded to it. perhaps you just missed the response so i will repeat it
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I wouldn't. The UK legislation talks of "Risk of injury". this is very different to
    there is a threat to the life or threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother, and in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.


  • #3008
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes she has as she said she said no rights right up until birth, and the pause before trust women was funny, it was like she had to look at her notes for the words she had to say and trust women was the words she was looking for.


  • #3009
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    It's weird that they expect us to vote Yes to this thing. It's not the way people think. It's not how people are.

    It's weird that you think it's weird when 56% of people surveyed say they plan to vote for it.


  • #3010
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3011
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,918 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes she has as she said she said no rights right up until birth, and the pause before trust women was funny, it was like she had to look at her notes for the words she had to say and trust women was the words she was looking for.

    she was stuttering all the way through so you reading far more into the pause than is there. She made an excellent point. Just not in an excellent way.


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  • #3012
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,918 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Lets just keep saying trust...and abortion up to birth, a together for yes campaigner in the audio link.

    https://twitter.com/mejtom/status/980837272068284416?s=21


    can you give me the timestamp where she says that there should be abortion up to birth? I've listened to the clip and cant find that bit.


  • #3013
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    She doesn't say it. So there's no point in asking him. His misinterpretation of what Sinéad has said is not surprising given his views of miss C and miss p.


  • #3014
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    applehunter wrote: »
    447212.JPG

    This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

    There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

    There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

    Hold on. Didn't you call me a murderer earlier in this thread?


  • #3015
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Hold on. Didn't you call me a murderer earlier in this thread?

    For the love of god, can you please just wrap your head around the simple truth you keep overlooking... pro lifers are always the victims at all time and nothing is ever their fault (like say, unwanted and abandoned children in state care leading to huge societal issues and financial strains).

    Once you get that truth of life in to you, you'll be grand.


  • #3016
    posturingpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭posturingpat


    Pro lifers are never in the wrong and Pro choicers are also never in the wrong, just depends what "side" people are on it seems.
    I've said it a thousand times at this stage, get this over and done with,nobody's changing their mind at this stage either way.


  • #3017
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    posturingpat wrote: »
    Pro lifers are never in the wrong and Pro choicers are also never in the wrong, just depends what "side" people are on it seems.
    I've said it a thousand times at this stage, get this over and done with,nobody's changing their mind at this stage either way.

    People who have decided won't change their mind but there are genuine people out there who are undecided on it and it's important to counteract the lies being propagated by the 'pro-life' side so people can see the truth of what this referendum is about.


  • #3018
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    January wrote: »
    The 'In Her Shoes' FB page has been targetted by 'pro-life' people, giving 1-star copy and paste reviews of the page. Imagine targetting women who are telling their stories from their point of view of their experience with the 8th amendment.

    I'm not surprised with their tactics at all. It's shameful.

    Well that backfired pretty spectacularly. Messages screenshotted of people talking about how many one star reviews would be needed to make an impact, the obvious panic at how popular the page is etc. And they've made it far more visible than it was when they set out.

    It's annoying, for any reasonable person paying attention to the campaigns it's blatantly obvious that one side is behaving consistently far worse than the other. Lies, aggression, sneaky shít like this, targetting venues and businesses to intimidate them out of supporting the opposing side, and all the while playing the "we're being victimised and bullied and censored" card. I worry though that for people who aren't fully paying attention, all that stuff goes under the radar. I was up in Dublin there and it is covered in posters, the budget they have is insane.

    It's going to be so, so close.


  • #3019
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I'm tired too, but here goes... No, I'm not saying that they dont care about them.

    That's interesting seeing as you recently told me to drop the charade of caring specifically about them.


  • #3020
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    To me, the style and focus of the No campaign, has a very American flavour, to it. This isn't hotch potch. This is a targetted methodology, based on their research and application mindset.Who are the hands on the tiller?


  • #3021
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »
    Well that backfired pretty spectacularly. Messages screenshotted of people talking about how many one star reviews would be needed to make an impact, the obvious panic at how popular the page is etc. And they've made it far more visible than it was when they set out.

    It's annoying, for any reasonable person paying attention to the campaigns it's blatantly obvious that one side is behaving consistently far worse than the other. Lies, aggression, sneaky shít like this, targetting venues and businesses to intimidate them out of supporting the opposing side, and all the while playing the "we're being victimised and bullied and censored" card. I worry though that for people who aren't fully paying attention, all that stuff goes under the radar. I was up in Dublin there and it is covered in posters, the budget they have is insane.

    It's going to be so, so close.

    With money coming in from the US and I'd imagine from the church they have deep pockets alright.

    In my local town during the marriage equality refurendum I thought it fuuny to be seeing only one poster calling for a yes vote, while the rest of the town was plastered with vote no posters.
    I was thinking that perhaps the yes camp had a feeling that it would pass and didn't bother putting them up in a smallish town in Meath, but it turns out that any posters supporting the referendum had been removed and replaced with vote no posters. I'm expecting more of the same this time around.


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  • #3022
    posturingpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭posturingpat


    I'm based in a small town in Wexford and have seen at least twice as many pro choice posters? Is there a big push in this area for any particular reason?


  • #3023
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    bertieinexile wrote:
    In england 97% of abortions are carried out on the grounds of a threat to mental health of the mother.
    Most people would describe what they have in england as abortion on demand/request.
    In england abortion on these grounds is available up to 24 weeks.

    Under Simon Harris's proposed legislation abortion would be available in Ireland under almost identical mental health grounds
    Just like in england this would be available up to 24 weeks.

    .
    You asked this before and i responded to it. perhaps you just missed the response so i will repeat it
    I wouldn't. The UK legislation talks of "Risk of injury". this is very different to



    there is a threat to the life or threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother, and in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.
    Thanks for your response ohnonotgmail. Sorry I didn't get back sooner. I'd happily talk about this issue all the way up to May 25. All day and all night.

    In english law the grounds are risk of injury to the mental health of the woman

    Harris's proposed grounds are threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother,
    Where Head 1 of the schedule helpfully explains that "health means physical or mental health"


    We can discuss the finer points of those differences if you like, and whether you want to hang a whole referendum on the distinction you perceive beteween "injury" and "serious harm".

    But the point that really matters - the thing that makes abortion on these grounds up to 24 weeks a crazy proposal for most of us - is that this distinction doesn't matter a damn to Marie Stopes. That's the reason I posted the link to the article about how easy it is to get an abortion from them on alleged mental health grounds.
    Abortions signed off after just a phonecall: How Marie Stopes doctors approve abortions for women they've never met

    If the doctor who signs off never even sees you will it make a damn bit of difference to him if the law says "injury" or "serious harm".

    If "approvals are based on only a one-line summary of what a woman tells a call centre worker who has no medical training, .....and the telephone discussions can be as short as 22 seconds" do you really think it matters whether the law was looking for "injury" or "serious harm".

    If "the official note of the woman's reason for having the abortion can be completely different from what she had said on the phone" do you think it matters whether the law said "injury" or "serious harm".

    If all you have to tell them is ‘I just don’t want the baby’ and then they "do the legal side of things" for you does it sound like they give a toss whether the law says "injury" or "serious harm".

    Read this dialogue between a woman looking for an abortion and Marie Stopes.
    Does it sound like Marie Stopes give a tinkers curse whether the law says "injury" or "serious harm" or just because it's Tuesday.
    As long as there's any unquantifiable grounds for abortion up to 24 weeks they'll give you one just for asking.
    FIRST CONSULTATION
    Call centre: OK, so first of all, are you sure of your decision?
    Reporter: Yeah.
    CC: And what are your reasons for requesting a termination, please?
    R: Um… I mean, I just don’t want to have the baby.
    CC: Yeah? So it’s just not the right time for you at the moment, or…?
    R: Yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah.
    CC: Yeah? That’s fine. That will come under ‘emotional reasons’.
    R: You have to have permission from two doctors for an abortion… I just wondered when that happens and whether I need to see two doctors on the day?
    CC: No, that’s absolutely fine. Just looking at your notes there it says you’re a self-referral, so you don’t need to be referred by your doctors.
    R: Right, so in terms of… because it says, um, you know, you have to give your reasons? And two doctors have to agree?
    CC: Yeah, so that’ll be our doctors. So you’ve given me your reason now, which comes under emotional reasons, and then our two doctors will sign this, and you’ll be OK to go ahead with the treatment.
    R: So when I go on the day, I don’t have to explain my reason again?
    CC: No, that’s absolutely fine, no.
    SECOND CONSULTATION
    R: I read that you need to see two doctors before you have…
    CC: No, you’ll just, you’ll see the surgeon on the day, OK, all right? And they’ll assess your medical and obstetric history.
    R: OK. So it’s just about my health? Someone told me you have to convince two doctors of your reasons?
    CC: No, no, no. You’ve already done that, OK? We’ve done your consultation, OK? And we’ve gone through the legal side of things. Our two doctors will sign it. You don’t need to convince anybody, OK? All right?
    R: Right – so I won’t have to talk, I don’t talk to him about my reason?
    CC: No, no, not at all. We’ve already documented your reason, OK? We’ve already done the legal side of things.
    R: Oh, OK… because somebody told me that two doctors have to agree and you have to explain your reasons to them.
    CC: Yeah, no. You’ve already done all that, OK... the only thing you’ll need to do on the day is to sign your consent form.
    R: OK, that’s really helpful... I didn’t realise it could be done, sort of, behind the scenes.
    CC: Yeah, yeah. It’s done before. This is why you have your phone consultation.
    R: Great. So the reason I gave before, that’s all I need to do?
    CC: That’s all you need to do.
    Abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. Do they think we're mad?


  • #3024
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    Further, if anyone has the typical knee jerk reaction to these proposals I.e. that they're disgusting and horrific etc. (I did myself)
    I suggest doing a little reading, particularly about abortion in Canada.

    Canada has no limits, they "trust women" and late term abortion is rare and only done for medical reasons.

    Thanks for that PhoenixParker. That's very honest.


  • #3025
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    Edward M wrote: »
    All party leaders haven as yet declared they are in favour of the 12 week limit I don't think, mlmd and her party so far haven't declared in favour of it.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sf-unlikely-to-update-abortion-stance-before-referendum-1.3420390?mode=amp

    The point I was making in the post of mine you quoted was that as over half of FF TDs voted against the referendum even. If the eighth is repealed it is possible FF could push MM towards a party vote before the legislation is passed, if that happened given the way they voted on the referendum, and if SF decide to not support the 12 week limit, it is possible for that to be tightened up after repeal.
    The tighter the result the more likelihood of that happening.

    Sorry, but that is the oddest bit of political analysis I have read in a long, long time.
    All party leaders haven as yet declared they are in favour of the 12 week limit ..... mlmd
    Mary Lou McDonald was at the launch of the 'Together for Yes' campaign
    her party so far haven't declared in favour of it.
    They've just suspended someone for three months for having the temerity to vote against holding the referendum.
    And for God's sake this is Sinn Fein we're talking about, it's not exactly the Oxford Union in there.
    over half of FF TDs voted against the referendum even. If the eighth is repealed it is possible FF could push MM towards a party vote before the legislation is passed,
    If the parliamentary party was going to pressurize Micheal Martin in to holding a party vote, now would be the time for doing it, not after a successful Yes vote when he would have a mandate for the line he's taking and the wind at his back.


    And just to take an overview here, one of the big selling points you can think of for this legislation you want to see passed is that it mightn't get passed at all?


  • #3026
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Thanks for that PhoenixParker. That's very honest.
    Your quoting out of context there Bertie by not including the full text of the post, silly mistake, waiting for a couple of new pages before hand might have been smarter and made it look like the poster actually agreed with you.


  • #3027
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bertie, question for you, what does it really matter what the reason is?
    Surely a system where a woman can avail of a termination in the first 12 weeks is preferable to the English system you seem to dislike so much?
    Instead of women trying to prove that their mental health is affected at 16 weeks, in order to avail of an abortion, Ireland shall make it available to women up to 12 weeks pregnant.
    No reason then for women or doctors to make a case for abortion....


  • #3028
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Your quoting out of context there Bertie by not including the full text of the post, silly mistake, waiting for a couple of new pages before hand might have been smarter and made it look like the poster actually agreed with you.

    What is the full quote DublnMeath? I can't see it...

    Quoting out of context is not cool.


  • #3029
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    Water John wrote: »
    To me, the style and focus of the No campaign, has a very American flavour, to it. This isn't hotch potch. This is a targetted methodology, based on their research and application mindset.Who are the hands on the tiller?
    You see right through me Water John.
    I didn't take time off for Easter. It was actually a Sioux raiding party came and took our women. Had to go get em back. Ran 'em down south of Terenure trying to cross the Dodder. Them Sioux won't be raiding no more.


  • #3030
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    Further, if anyone has the typical knee jerk reaction to these proposals I.e. that they're disgusting and horrific etc. (I did myself)
    I suggest doing a little reading, particularly about abortion in Canada.

    Canada has no limits, they "trust women" and late term abortion is rare and only done for medical reasons.

    It's above


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  • #3031
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think Bertie, you'd better go back to the allotment and start digging there, instead.

    My post, was focused much more broadly, than you.

    BTW, the wording is very different than the UK. 'Serious harm' is a high threshold.


This discussion has been closed.
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