The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Annasopra · 03-04-2018 12:58AM

thee glitz wrote: »

Apparently.

That's a disproportionate solution, got a source on it?

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/EAJ2017102500002?opendocument#T00100

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/EAJ2017121300002?opendocument#E00100

It really is not disproportionate when you read the evidence given Tom O Malley, Noeline Blackwell and Maeve Eogan. And then read the debate on reason 9

captbarnacles · 03-04-2018 01:47AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

thee glitz wrote: »

How is that the opposite? They show that they don't particularly care about rape victims, FFA etc by not seeking that proposed legislation be more restrictive.

Are you completely unaware of the reasoning behind the 12 week proposal? It is proposed mainly to address the issue of women who have been raped to avoid retraumatising them throu
gh different medical and legal processes.

What they think but won't say is 'thats what the right to travel is for'.

At any Savethe8th here would you be ok with the state subsidizing women on a means test basis to travel for an abortion?

Ave Sodalis · 03-04-2018 08:41AM

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm tired too, but here goes... No, I'm not saying that they dont care about them. Yes, I'm saying that they are using them to push abortion on demand. They may care about them, but not as much as they claim to, and not even necessarily
as much as some who intend voting No. The agenda is abortion on demand, stories of rape victims are a happy convenience.

You are aware that a large amount of women on the pro-choice side are rape victims that wanted an option to have an abortion in their own country?

Seriously, what is this new way of posting you've decided to do? First you're saying that pro-choice are telling children of rape to kill themselves, then you're saying that victims of rape are a happy convenience to be used. I'm sure when an Irish women gets raped and falls pregnant, her first thought is "this is great! I can use this as a story on In Her Shoes!". I'm sure her brother's or her sister's first thought is "Fantastic! This will surely help the referendum!"

I'm sorry, I know you're trying to paint the pro-choice as some sort of demons in disguise that you have been clever enough to suss out like a Scooby Doo episode, but what you're implying is disturbing, false and it seems to me you're only even saying it so you can have some weird sort of "Aha! Gotcha! moment.

Zubeneschamali · 03-04-2018 09:18AM

bertieinexile wrote: »

There are a couple of interesting lessons to be taken from the assault on drillyeye that's just taken place.

One: drillyeye needs to go back to pro-life debate school, his efforts were transparent and laughable, we saw through his very first "just askin" post.

Two: When you say you are unfollowing the thread, press the unfollow button immediately. 10 posts saying you are leaving in a huff are even stupider than one.

amdublin · 03-04-2018 09:41AM

This thread:

If you don't respond to some posters - oh you don't want any debate or to hear the other side.

If you debate and reason with some posters - Oh this is assault it's terrible

Can't win

Zubeneschamali · 03-04-2018 09:46AM

amdublin wrote: »

This thread:

If you don't respond to some posters - oh you don't want any debate or to hear the other side.

If you debate and reason with some posters - Oh this is assault it's terrible

Can't win

Actually, I think those tactics are a sign that you have already won. They've got nothing.

Edward M · 03-04-2018 11:57AM

bertieinexile wrote: »

There are a couple of interesting lessons to be taken from the assault on drillyeye that's just taken place.

The first being that if this is how you treat someone who was open to being persuaded but wasn't yet a believer, then the sooner you all get out on the canvass the better. Let her rip guys! Both barrels!

The basic problem drillyeye has with repeal is that, as the supreme court has unequivocally said, if you take away the 8th amendment then there are no constituional safeguards for the unborn child. You have no guarantees, no idea what abortion legislation may eventually look like in the future.
drillyeye is just repeating what the supreme court said.

Where drillyeye is overstating it I think, and where i agree with nearly all the recent pro choice posts, is that we do know what the immediate consequences of a yes vote will be. We know the legislation we will be getting. There is nothing vague about the consequences at all. In your efforts to trounce drillyeye you were a bit too upfront about the reality of the situation.
Its a long way removed from the sentiment expressed here.
(Not saying these are contradictory but the message is totally different)

And of course you're right.

A Dail majority is 79. The Irish times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/referendum-tracker
has 67 TDs in favour of abortion on demand/request up to 12 weeks plus 13 SF currently recorded as undeclared plus however many more of the other 22 undeclared TDs. Plus every party leader is in favour. Plus it would be getting voted on in the context of a successful referendum. Can you see any way that 12 weeks and the rest of the schedule would not be adopted in the case of a yes vote?

In the event of a Yes vote the published schedule would be approved.

And to bring it back to what drillyeye was saying, the only thing stopping the legislation being made any more liberal in future is that it is hard to imagine any way in which it could be more liberal.

The proposed legislation is for abortion on demand/request in law up to 12 weeks and in fact up to 24 weeks.

All party leaders haven as yet declared they are in favour of the 12 week limit I don't think, mlmd and her party so far haven't declared in favour of it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sf-unlikely-to-update-abortion-stance-before-referendum-1.3420390?mode=amp

The point I was making in the post of mine you quoted was that as over half of FF TDs voted against the referendum even. If the eighth is repealed it is possible FF could push MM towards a party vote before the legislation is passed, if that happened given the way they voted on the referendum, and if SF decide to not support the 12 week limit, it is possible for that to be tightened up after repeal.
The tighter the result the more likelihood of that happening.

applehunter · 03-04-2018 12:39PM

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

nice_guy80 · 03-04-2018 12:45PM

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

they were hillwalkers
not capable of taking on the actual issue

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-04-2018 12:46PM

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

No body has been "pounced" upon. What happens is posters will come into the thread, make unfounded claims, post skewed statistics or even tell outright lies. When this is pointed out to them they leave the thread in a huff claiming to have been bullied or hounded out of the thread.

Please show links to a single poster who was "pounced" on.

_Dara_ · 03-04-2018 12:48PM

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

Evidently not that capable.

Annasopra · 03-04-2018 01:14PM

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

Can we just stop this nonsense right now please. Some posters are being robustly challenged. Some get banned because they register multiple accounts or soapbox offensive views. Some posters pretend their stance of supporting repeal or undecided while undermining repeal. This is transparent. Nobody is being bullied here. Nobody is being assaulted here. It is completely and utterly ludicrous to suggest this.

Zubeneschamali · 03-04-2018 01:21PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nobody is being bullied here. Nobody is being assaulted here. It is completely and utterly ludicrous to suggest this.

During the SSM referendum, we heard a lot of complaints like this, that people who were anti were being oppressed, labelled as bigoted, marginalised, abused...

If that becomes the pro-life narrative in this campaign, it'll be because they feel they are losing.

RobertKK · 03-04-2018 01:33PM

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

Zubeneschamali · 03-04-2018 01:37PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

TBH I don't think the campaign will make much difference. It certainly won't sway people who were pro or anti repeal day one - we've had 30+ years to make up our minds.

The Don't Knows may be moved to vote either way by the campaign, but there are not enough of them to affect the outcome.

amdublin · 03-04-2018 01:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

I have friends in different canvass groups who are saying the opposite. Saying it feels like the majority - 65/35 are pro-choice in support of repeal. A lot of people saying they are pro life and don't agree with abortion personally but agree with the choice for others.

Although one friend who had her two year old with her...a lady said to him in the buggy "aren't you lucky your mammy didn't abort you"

seamus · 03-04-2018 01:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

This is the problem with echo chambers.

The pro-life campaign is getting absolutely savaged from what I can see. Every "launch" is being marred by being full of provable misinformation from the start, forcing a swift backpedal and retreat. And their angry, shouty, religious rhetoric is really grating on people in general.

Time will tell of course. I too may be in an echo chamber.

Objectively the pro-life campaign are largely onto a loser here because the 8th amendment has nothing going for it. It's not pro-life, it's not elegant, it's not simple and retaining it prevents any positive progress in Irish society.

The pro-life campaign is a "better the devil you know" campaign, and nothing else. Which is a very difficult position to defend when the devil you know is awful.

....... · 03-04-2018 01:41PM

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Billy86 · 03-04-2018 01:41PM

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

Can you please stop acting like such a snowflake? For all the yammering on we've had from the pro-life side about how free speech means they should be allowed to harass often already traumatised young women and teenagers, many victims of rape,

Yet as soon as you guys get challenged on this, be it on this thread on Boards or in general every day lift, just about every single time the very first reaction is to play the victim card. "They're trying to SILENCE ME, life is so unfair!!". Nobody is trying to silence you, people are however challenging pro lifers opinions, which it's painfully obvious many have never had to deal with in their closed circles. Sure only 10 years ago many would have been certain they would never have to deal with same sex marriage or abortion becoming a reality in their lifetimes.

In truth, all posts like yours are, are an outright attempt to silence others, to make them feel shame for correcting other pro lifers, the same sh*t pulled in the SSM referendum, basically. Utterly cowardly carry on, but that's what we've come to expect at this point, which is why it doesn't work anymore.

Nettle Soup · 03-04-2018 01:44PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Does any prolife person honestly believe the abortion issue can be dealt with sufficiently within the confines of the constitution?

No idea, but I'd like to see it discussed.

Are you serious? No idea.

The Same Sex Marriage referendum was only a 18 or 19 word change to the constitution and you saw all the nonsense and homophobic vitriol spouted by the anti side (where are they now to apologise?). The 8th is clearly not working. It has to go. The Oireachtas need to legislate for something this complex.

Billy86 · 03-04-2018 01:45PM

amdublin wrote: »

I have friends in different canvass groups who are saying the opposite. Saying it feels like the majority - 65/35 are pro-choice in support of repeal. A lot of people saying they are pro life and don't agree with abortion personally but agree with the choice for others.

Same sh*t as SSM - "the polls here don't tell you the real truth, we all know the countryside will be overwhelmingly against it, [insert 'elitist Dublin' jab of choice here], and from what I can see here it won't be passing".

Cue May 2015, where it passed in every single constituency bar one (South Leitrim/Roscommon) where 'no' won by a whopping 1.5%.

Billy86 · 03-04-2018 01:46PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you serious? No idea.

The Same Sex Marriage referendum was only a 18 or 19 word change to the constitution and you saw all the nonsense and homophobic vitriol spouted by the anti side (where are they now to apologise?). The 8th is clearly not working. It has to go. The Oireachtas need to legislate for something this complex.

Here's the apology from those who were against SSM: "I fully supported SSM, but this abortion stuff... well that's different."

amdublin · 03-04-2018 01:46PM

seamus wrote: »

This is the problem with echo chambers.

The pro-life campaign is getting absolutely savaged from what I can see. Every "launch" is being marred by being full of provable misinformation from the start, forcing a swift backpedal and retreat. And their angry, shouty, religious rhetoric is really grating on people in general.

Time will tell of course. I too may be in an echo chamber.

I worry I too, surrounded by my pro repeal friends, am in an echo chamber.

But then you see the pro life launch with non medical drs saying awful things were "noble" and you think how in God's name can it not be repealed.

seamus · 03-04-2018 01:48PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you serious? No idea.

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

dudara · 03-04-2018 01:49PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

I think the Repeal campaign has been slow to mobilise in terms of canvassing, posters etc. Having that said that, Repeal has been up and running for a long time and have already achieved the remarkable result of getting us to a referendum. So I would not underestimate Repeal at all.

Both campaigns will target the undecideds. I think anyone with a firm opinion has their mind made up, and will be hard to shift.

Sofiztikated · 03-04-2018 01:50PM

seamus wrote: »

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

See it discussed = I want people to say the same things as me.

amdublin · 03-04-2018 01:51PM

seamus wrote: »

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

Seamus you are clearly assaulting and pouncing on the pro life side with this post

....... · 03-04-2018 01:52PM

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK · 03-04-2018 02:29PM

Lets just keep saying trust...and abortion up to birth, a together for yes campaigner in the audio link.

https://twitter.com/mejtom/status/980837272068284416?s=21

....... · 03-04-2018 02:33PM

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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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