Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

One eyed Jack · 02-04-2018 01:51PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A young immature man deserves to have his life and career blighted for making some remarks on a whatsapp group chat and for a drunken night?

Ok :eek:

Downplay it as much as you need to Francie, but as I pointed out already, the accounts of their behaviour and their attitudes is already available in the public domain for everyone to form their own opinion of just those men and their behaviour, and like I previously mentioned - it falls far short of the standard I would expect of any ordinary man, let alone any men who are in the public eye because they are considered professional sports players.

Are those men the kind of men you would think any young boy should aspire to emulate to or see them as role models? I certainly wouldn't.

Mrsmum · 02-04-2018 01:53PM

Just on the not guilty/innocent thing people ie everyone will have to accept the verdict of not guilty and be happy with that.

But leave that case aside - if you look out your window one night and see the young lad next door smashing your car windows, you yell at him and he looks up at you so you see him clear as a bell. You get him taken to court & there you have no witness bar yourself but his parents back him up that he was in bed asleep and he is found not guilty. So legally he is not guilty and you must live with that but actually he is as guilty as sin and certainly not innocent. So you see there is a difference.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2018 01:53PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

A teenager was left sobbing and bleeding through her clothes, these men thought that was something to brag and joke about. Yeah they deserve repercussions. Like it or not when your career is being a high profile sport person you are a role model, people like these should not be in that position.

Young men (and women) brag about conquests. Is this even news?

Young men mostly mature to become decent family men.

P.S. Maybe it is no harm that the myth of sportspeople being some sort of examplars for society is busted once and for all.

And not just on the basis of these particular sports people.

Uncharted · 02-04-2018 01:54PM

They were judged to be NOT GUILTY.

The trial is over. End of.

They acted like absolute drunk assholes,, yes,absolutely no question about it,but it's not illegal to be an asshole.

Not just yet anyway....!

All of this irrelevant fluff is just online chest beating. He said,she said nonsense spouted by armchair lawyers.

The trial is over. Move on. It's bank holiday Monday. Go have a beer and chill out.

Christy42 · 02-04-2018 01:55PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Did the jury not return a Not Guilty verdict? If not then what was the outcome of the trial because I must have missed it.

No one is saying such a verdict means the woman is lying, only that there was a misunderstanding as regards consent.

You must have missed what is discussed in a trial. They found out there is not enough evidence to convict. The lack of knowledge of the legal system is quite frankly embarrassing.

It has not been proven there was a misunderstanding. It was not proven she was lying. It was not proven they raped her. That seems to be the situation.

Similarly I will be impressed by any litigation cases succeeding for people saying I believe her. That is not defamation. People are allowed to believe what they like. People are allowed believe that a trial came to the wrong decision. If they were found guilty and someone believed it was wrong they would likewise not be sued (successfully).

Strazdas · 02-04-2018 01:56PM

tretorn wrote: »

Who is Jack Grealish, I have never heard of him.

Young footballer, plays for Aston Villa and used to play for the Republic of Ireland under-21s.

fattymuatty · 02-04-2018 01:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Young men (and women) brag about conquests. Is this even news?

Young men mostly mature to become decent family men.

P.S. Maybe it is no harm that the myth of sportspeople being some sort of examplars for society is busted once and for all.

And not just on the basis of these particular sports people.

Young men brag about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes, really? You are saying this is totally normal male behaviour?

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2018 01:58PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Downplay it as much as you need to Francie, but as I pointed out already, the accounts of their behaviour and their attitudes is already available in the public domain for everyone to form their own opinion of just those men and their behaviour, and like I previously mentioned - it falls far short of the standard I would expect of any ordinary man, let alone any men who are in the public eye because they are considered professional sports players.

Are those men the kind of men you would think any young boy should aspire to emulate to or see them as role models? I certainly wouldn't.

No they are not. As I already said, it is time the myth of sports people as examples was busted.

Sports people, like anyone else should earn that position not automatically attain it through a talent with a ball or club.

Everyone has to be allowed to grow up and mature. But you would prefer the punishment option.
That's fine, but not everyone is like you.

AudreyHepburn · 02-04-2018 01:58PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Just on the not guilty/innocent thing people ie everyone will have to accept the verdict of not guilty and be happy with that.

But leave that case aside - if you look out your window one night and see the young lad next door smashing your car windows, you yell at him and he looks up at you so you see him clear as a bell. You get him taken to court & there you have no witness bar yourself but his parents back him up that he was in bed asleep and he is found not guilty. So legally he is not guilty and you must live with that but actually he is as guilty as sin and certainly not innocent. So you see there is a difference.

First of he is innocent whether you like it or not. The jury has found him so and no amount of blustering and pontificating will change that.

Second you’re setting your standards far too high - we all do stupid things when we’re young and drunk. It’s completely unfair to want a young man’s life and reputation ruined over one drunken reckless night.

Discodog · 02-04-2018 01:59PM

The question is how can someone, who has drunk so much, know if the woman has consented ? In law we say that someone can't consent if they are incapable. So surely it's wrong for a man to proceed if he can't be sure that she is consenting ?

AudreyHepburn · 02-04-2018 02:00PM

Christy42 wrote: »

You must have missed what is discussed in a trial. They found out there is not enough evidence to convict. The lack of knowledge of the legal system is quite frankly embarrassing.

It has not been proven there was a misunderstanding. It was not proven she was lying. It was not proven they raped her. That seems to be the situation.

Similarly I will be impressed by any litigation cases succeeding for people saying I believe her. That is not defamation. People are allowed to believe what they like. People are allowed believe that a trial came to the wrong decision. If they were found guilty and someone believed it was wrong they would likewise not be sued (successfully).

I missed nothing - the verdict was Not Guilty, that means they are innocent in the eyes of the law and we all need to accept that.

Strazdas · 02-04-2018 02:01PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Young men (and women) brag about conquests. Is this even news?

Young men mostly mature to become decent family men.

P.S. Maybe it is no harm that the myth of sportspeople being some sort of examplars for society is busted once and for all.

And not just on the basis of these particular sports people.

Sport is a multi million pound industry these days with saturation media coverage. The average professional rugby player is on around €250,000 a year. The idea that players can do whatever they like in their off time doesn't hold water.

Fann Linn · 02-04-2018 02:01PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

But once you do know you can't put the genie back in the bottle. We can't pretend we have no knowledge of what we now know. We can only decide that their disrespect to women doesn't matter.

But their verbal disrepect for women wasn't on trial. Its not my kind of language, but I know and hear it frequently. I hear it in the golf club bar, on the bus or train and I'll hear it again tomorrow when I go back to work and it won't be just confined to my male colleagues either.

They were on trial for rape and found not guilty, anything after that is just people stoking the fires in a rush to get the verdict that they actually wanted.

Ken. · 02-04-2018 02:02PM

Mod-I,Conspectus, being of somewhat sound mind do hereby solemnly swear to perma ban anyone that posts anything about the woman that may identify her.

This includes(but not limited to) her name,occupation,parents names,occupations,friends names.

Ye have already seen what the defendants in this case are willing to do to anyone allegedly slandering them and the Public Prosecution Service of Northern Ireland will do to anyone naming the woman.

I'm sure Boards.ie would have no problem in handing over your details if a Section 8 came in the door.

Section 8 explained
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Disclosures-Permitted-under-Section-8-of-the-Data-Protection-Act-Section/y/237.htm

This thread will be locked for 1 hour to let this sink in to everyone's head.

Ken. · 02-04-2018 03:03PM

Mod-Thread reopened.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2018 03:06PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

Young men brag about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes, really? You are saying this is totally normal male behaviour?

This is more of the sensationalist mythmaking about this case. At no point did I see them bragging ' about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes'.

Yes they bragged about conquests and sex and that was nothing to be proud of but it is also nothing that most young men and women do.

freshpopcorn · 02-04-2018 03:08PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I wonder this also. I could see lots of people ending up in bother if there texts/conversations got leaked to the public no matter what their jobs was from the professional sports player to the local teacher.
I know people and they often wipe there phone even when there's nothing overly bad on it just because they know if the phone got into the wrong hands they'd be trouble.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2018 03:08PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Sport is a multi million pound industry these days with saturation media coverage. The average professional rugby player is on around €250,000 a year. The idea that players can do whatever they like in their off time doesn't hold water.

I didn't say that they could do 'whatever they liked' with respect.
I said it might be time to bust the myth that they are automatically role models by virtue of being good at a sport.

Like everyone else has to do, that should be earned by your actions on and off the field.

AudreyHepburn · 02-04-2018 03:10PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

Young men brag about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes, really? You are saying this is totally normal male behaviour?

That’s not what they were bragging about though

irishman86 · 02-04-2018 03:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is more of the sensationalist mythmaking about this case. At no point did I see them bragging ' about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes'.

Yes they bragged about conquests and sex and that was nothing to be proud of but it is also nothing that most young men and women do.

Ive had this conversation a thousand times
Ask all these idiots to check the phones of there nearest male relation of the 20-30 range and they are going to be shocked what guys write in bravado

Mrsmum · 02-04-2018 03:16PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

But their verbal disrepect for women wasn't on trial. Its not my kind of language, but I know and hear it frequently. I hear it in the golf club bar, on the bus or train and I'll hear it again tomorrow when I go back to work and it won't be just confined to my male colleagues either.

They were on trial for rape and found not guilty, anything after that is just people stoking the fires in a rush to get the verdict that they actually wanted.

The rape case is over. They no longer have to answer for that. Their employers are doing their own review into their conduct round this sorry mess. Don't worry they won't be rehashing was the girl raped. I presume they will be deciding was the players conduct unbecoming to what would be expected from their position. After all they have been described here as sports professionals and PJ a God no less. A God ought to have high standards wouldn't you think ?
I am sorry you hear that kind of horrible talk everywhere. Almost as bad as men r trash comments !

Creol1 · 02-04-2018 03:19PM

Discodog wrote: »

The question is how can someone, who has drunk so much, know if the woman has consented ? In law we say that someone can't consent if they are incapable. So surely it's wrong for a man to proceed if he can't be sure that she is consenting ?

Are you suggesting that sex should be deemed rape if one or both of the parties is drunk? If you do, we'll imprison most of the population.

Drinking a lot impairs inhibition and judgement, but doesn't significantly impair perception, so an intoxicated person can still hear someone say no and see/feel the person resisting the same way a sober person can.

Moreover, what counts as heavy drinking is relative to the person and his/her tolerance level.

razorblunt · 02-04-2018 03:20PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

Young men brag about leaving women crying and bleeding through their clothes, really? You are saying this is totally normal male behaviour?

See, the thing is, they weren't the guys to call her a slut, they also didn't brag about her state either. Different timelines in the whatsapp messaging entirely.

When I say "they", I mean Olding, Jackson, and Harrison. Mcilroy was doing most of the loudmouthing.
There was no bragging after Harrison told them of the girls state.

Here we go · 02-04-2018 03:23PM

Conspectus wrote: »

Mod-I,Conspectus, being of somewhat sound mind do hereby solemnly swear to perma ban anyone that posts anything about the woman that may identify her.

This includes(but not limited to) her name,occupation,parents names,occupations,friends names.

Ye have already seen what the defendants in this case are willing to do to anyone allegedly slandering them and the Public Prosecution Service of Northern Ireland will do to anyone naming the woman.

I'm sure Boards.ie would have no problem in handing over your details if a Section 8 came in the door.

Section 8 explained
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Disclosures-Permitted-under-Section-8-of-the-Data-Protection-Act-Section/y/237.htm

This thread will be locked for 1 hour to let this sink in to everyone's head.

Not that I know or want to know who the person is and I do belive in the law that protects people coming forward as any breach may intimidate future victims of such crimes reporting it and any and all blame of innocent people brought to court should lie on the police/dpp for going forward in such cases not the accuser, my I ask is it a truly illigal to name her in this duristicsion just like the Jamie bulger case can the U.K. Courts impose there laws on citizens of a different state who riside in a different state

Creol1 · 02-04-2018 03:23PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Just on the not guilty/innocent thing people ie everyone will have to accept the verdict of not guilty and be happy with that.

But leave that case aside - if you look out your window one night and see the young lad next door smashing your car windows, you yell at him and he looks up at you so you see him clear as a bell. You get him taken to court & there you have no witness bar yourself but his parents back him up that he was in bed asleep and he is found not guilty. So legally he is not guilty and you must live with that but actually he is as guilty as sin and certainly not innocent. So you see there is a difference.

What you're getting isn't a distinction between not guilty and innocent, but rather a distinction between being not-guilty/innocent as a matter of law and being not guilty/innocent as a matter of fact.

Mrsmum · 02-04-2018 03:25PM

irishman86 wrote: »

Ive had this conversation a thousand times
Ask all these idiots to check the phones of there nearest male relation of the 20-30 range and they are going to be shocked what guys write in bravado

If that is the case and you are the one suggesting all men as in anyone's male relations talk like that about women, why the outrage when one young woman holds up a Men r Trash placard. Would she not be right if what you are saying is true.
And what sort of pathetic creatures are you that you need to diss the person you were intimate with so you can impress your mates. Grow up.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 02-04-2018 03:29PM

I'm getting more and more shocked with the carry on after this verdict.

Protests and marches after the "wrong" verdict was delivered by a jury in a different jurisdiction. People still calling the defendants rapists and goading the defence to sue them. Then one of the defence teams receives death threats.

These people seem to have a huge problem with democracy, due process and trial by jury. It's nasty, sinister and subversive.

This island has had huge problems in the past with subversives wanting to run things their own way, carrying out their own form of justice, courts and punishments. Belfast, where all this occurred only knows it too well.

It'll be a sad day for the State and law and order if we give in to these people and their hatred.

tritium · 02-04-2018 03:34PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

If that is the case and you are the one suggesting all men as in anyone's male relations talk like that about women, why the outrage when one young woman holds up a Men r Trash placard. Would she not be right if what you are saying is true.
And what sort of pathetic creatures are you that you need to diss the person you were intimate with so you can impress your mates. Grow up.

I doubt the phone of a young woman of a similar age would be butterflies and sugar cubes. Several I know would be quite graphic in their view of young men. Would you argue all women are trash too?

LLMMLL · 02-04-2018 03:37PM

Oaklyn Early Fauna wrote: »

I'm getting more and more shocked with the carry on after this verdict.

Protests and marches after the "wrong" verdict was delivered by a jury in a different jurisdiction. People still calling the defendants rapists and goading the defence to sue them. Then one of the defence teams receives death threats.

These people seem to have a huge problem with democracy, due process and trial by jury. It's nasty, sinister and subversive.

This island has had huge problems in the past with subversives wanting to run things their own way, carrying out their own form of justice, courts and punishments. Belfast, where all this occurred only knows it too well.

It'll be a sad day for the State and law and order if we give in to these people and their hatred.

Threats of violence towards someone involved in controversy is nothing new and shouldn't be taken as indicative of anything other than the craziness of the individual who sent it. For example many feminist campaigners have had rape threats made against them.

The whole "sue me" thing is a pretty standard response when people believe defamation threats are used heavy handedly to try and silence people.

People are allowed to protest.

I.dont see anything that threatens democracy here.

Ken. · 02-04-2018 03:37PM

Here we go wrote: »

Not that I know or want to know who the person is and I do belive in the law that protects people coming forward as any breach may intimidate future victims of such crimes reporting it and any and all blame of innocent people brought to court should lie on the police/dpp for going forward in such cases not the accuser, my I ask is it a truly illigal to name her in this duristicsion just like the Jamie bulger case can the U.K. Courts impose there laws on citizens of a different state who riside in a different state

The defendants could sue here and the PPSNI could ask for (and get) a European arrest warrant to extradite someone to the UK.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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