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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #4922
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    What are you on about?

    Miles away from home, I took it to mean should be done in the home.


  • #4923
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

    Who's got a higher tolerance? Did one of you have a heavy meal? Or do you just assume women can't drink like men?
    I thought it was clear that I had given ONE example (in this case, relevant to my life) of how two people might not process the same amount and type of alcohol in the exact same way. Since I had already said it depends on various factors. Apparently not clear enough for you.


  • #4924
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    irishrebe wrote: »
    I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

    You have already embarrassed yourself on the "drunk" definition as it is clear you don't know what this means in under Irish law.

    Women are not told not to get drunk because "men might what to rape you" again I do not know what crazy planet you live on but you are coming across as insane, most people even men are told not to get too drunk and essentially make bad choices. What you appear to want to do is take a "bad choices" woman can make remove all responsibility and put it solely at the feet of the man.

    Also a straight man is not going to consent to sex drunk or sober.
    It is more compatible if we can at least agree the consent is at least a possibility drunk or sober.


  • #4925
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

    There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male


  • #4926
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    Miles away from home, I took it to mean should be done in the home.

    Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...


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  • #4927
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

    Who's got a higher tolerance? Did one of you have a heavy meal? Or do you just assume women can't drink like men?
    I have a very good tolerance for alcohol but not enough to offset the fact that he's basically twice my size, no. So all things being equal, we can drink the same amount, he'll be tipsy and I'll be sh1tfaced. The fact that there are so many variables is one of the reasons is so difficult to prosecute in this situation. As I already stated.


  • #4928
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

    There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male
    Yes, I get that, being a legal translator and all that. What does that have to do with gender pronouns? Why do you think this is somehow more of an issue in French than it is in English?


  • #4929
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

    There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male
    in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?


  • #4930
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...

    I would imagine not but evidence collection if primary for getting a conviction. Contamination would lead to an out and make it inadmissible.


  • #4931
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    I would imagine not but evidence collection if primary for getting a conviction. Contamination would lead to an out and make it inadmissible.

    No I agree...but our conviction rate is so dismal its a lot to go through for a piss poor chance of justice...


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  • #4932
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?

    Were getting off topic, You said society. I simply pointed out that is incorrect. Are you talking about Irish law or UK law ? Is the text originally in Latin for example ?


  • #4933
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...

    I think originally the complainant in the Belfast trial texted a friend to see if they would bring her to a SARC (sexual assault referral centre) in Newry, before going to the Rowan Centre, which is in Antrim Town.


  • #4934
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

    You have already embarrassed yourself on the "drunk" definition as it is clear you don't know what this means in under Irish law.

    Women are not told not to get drunk because "men might what to rape you" again I do not know what crazy planet you live on but you are coming across as insane, most people even men are told not to get too drunk and essentially make bad choices. What you appear to want to do is take a "bad choices" woman can make remove all responsibility and put it solely at the feet of the man.

    Also a straight man is not going to consent to sex drunk or sober.
    It is more compatible if we can at least agree the consent is at least a possibility drunk or sober.
    Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
    Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
    Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.


  • #4935
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?

    Were getting off topic, You said society. I simply pointed out that is incorrect. Are you talking about Irish law or UK law ? Is the text originally in Latin for example ?
    we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?


  • #4936
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
    Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
    Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.

    Would that not be evidence of anal rape in this case force penetration that would show up in an exam ?


  • #4937
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
    Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
    Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.

    Would that not be evidence of anal rape in this case force penetration that would show up in an exam ?
    The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?


  • #4938
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?

    which ones the ones in Latin, Irish, English ? maybe provide a link i have not seen it.


  • #4939
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    I think originally the complainant in the Belfast trial texted a friend to see if they would bring her to a SARC (sexual assault referral centre) in Newry, before going to the Rowan Centre, which is in Antrim Town.

    Can you imagine how brutal the decision making process must be after a traumatic incident for a woman...

    Do I tell someone...
    Did it actually happen...did I actually say no...
    Should I go to a clinic?
    What kinds of tests do they do?
    Do I alert the police?


    The process, from the word go is brutal.......


  • #4940
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?

    which ones the ones in Latin, Irish, English ? maybe provide a link i have not seen it.
    You have not seen it, despite the fact that the text I linked to which used only male pronouns started this entire conversation?


  • #4941
    gluppers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭gluppers


    There's a fair bit of hysteria around

    I'd be surprised if there weren't female based whatapp groups in existence that spoke about men in a vile manner


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  • #4942
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?

    Yes fissures that could not be attributed to any number of execration Functions.


  • #4943
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Having read through this thread, just want to spell some things out for some people here.

    Not guilty = prosecution couldn't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.

    Not guilty =/= innocent

    Not guilty = presumed innocence (based off the first definition above)

    Not guilty =/= the jury didn't believe her story.

    Not guilty =/= no crime taking place.

    Not guilty =/= the woman consented

    Not guilty =/= the woman lied

    Not guilty =/= she filed a false rape allegation.

    The last two in particular, I've seen many people say that she's a liar, she should be named and shamed etc etc.

    When challenged, a high percentage say the lads are 'innocent until proven guilty'.

    However, for some reason, the fact the complainant hasn't been found guilty of anything doesn't matter in the eyes of the people who use the 'innocent until proven guilty' phrase above. They've made up their minds and found the woman guilty of making up that she was raped.

    The entire trial was a circus and she was failed by the justice system in Northern Ireland.

    Why?

    She's entitled to anonymity, yet the laws allow any joe soap to walk in off the street for a look at the trial, where her name was repeatedly said in court.

    What anonymity is that?


  • #4944
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?

    Yes fissures that could not be attributed to any number of execration Functions.
    Wow, you jumped right into that one. I rest my case.


  • #4945
    chicorytip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    So the "We believe her" brigade clearly regard the members of the jury who - after weeks of listening to what was, at times, complex and contradictory evidence - delivered a swift and unanimous not guilty verdict, as complete and utter fools!!


  • #4946
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    You have not seen it, despite the fact that the text I linked to which used only male pronouns started this entire conversation?

    What text what page ?


  • #4947
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Wow, you jumped right into that one. I rest my case.

    Jumped into what ?


  • #4948
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    chicorytip wrote: »
    So the "We believe her" brigade clearly regard the members of the jury who - after weeks of listening to what was, at times, complex and contradictory evidence - delivered a swift and unanimous not guilty verdict, as complete and utter fools!!

    I think this is going over your head...don't worry about it...


  • #4949
    upandcumming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Having read through this thread, just want to spell some things out for some people here.

    Not guilty = prosecution couldn't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.

    Not guilty =/= innocent

    Not guilty = presumed innocence (based off the first definition above)

    Not guilty =/= the jury didn't believe her story.

    Not guilty =/= no crime taking place.

    Not guilty =/= the woman consented

    Not guilty =/= the woman lied

    Not guilty =/= she filed a false rape allegation.

    The last two in particular, I've seen many people say that she's a liar, she should be named and shamed etc etc.
    I haven't seen as many people call her a liar as abuse the fuck out of the defendants.

    =/= in your example should really read 'might or might not'. This isn't as black or white as you're making it out to be. I could easily add in:
    Not guilty =/= the woman was truthful


  • #4950
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    bebeman wrote: »
    At the end of the day it all boils dow to buyers remorse.
    Who here has not gone out, had a few drinks, done some dancing or karaoke?
    Next day you wake up, full of remorse for acting the fool the night before, it was great fun at the time , but now you regret it.

    We have a female witness that said in court the girl was a willing participant, this woman the next day when sober, regretted what she done the night before, and in a attempt to reclaim her dignity cried RAPE!

    If women want modern feminism, equal to men, they have got to accept that you will have sexual encounters that you are not proud off.
    Wake up the next morning, "what have i done, no way, too hell with it, forget about it, Get on with you life".

    The young lady you are referring to returned home in a taxi..30 minutes after leaving the house...traumatised, bleeding and bruised, unable to talk...I doubt she ever thought it was great fun...


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  • #4951
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    bebeman wrote: »
    We have a female witness that said in court the girl was a willing participant, this woman the next day when sober, regretted what she done the night before, and in a attempt to reclaim her dignity cried RAPE

    We also have the same female witness who, under re-examination, could not say that the complainant was positively consenting.

    Or are we just going to ignore that nugget of information because it doesn't suit our narrative?

    The woman hasn't been found guilty of anything. Stop saying she is.


This discussion has been closed.
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