Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

hynesie08 · 31-03-2018 08:09PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Truly amazing....my god...

Anything factually wrong with that statement?

Ulysses Gaze · 31-03-2018 08:09PM

Remember that in the quest to get more rape convictions, innocent men can be hurt and imprisoned.

Alison Saunders, head of the CPS, put immense pressure on Police Services in the UK to up the number of rape convictions that they could get in courts.

You know what the net result was?

A number of innocent men falsely accused of rape with evidence being withheld that would exonerate them.

The result of this has meant that ALL rape cases in the last 2 years in the UK are now under investigation to see how many further cases of innocent men have been imprisoned.

Do we really want this type of thing happening in Ireland as well?

Dyr · 31-03-2018 08:10PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

If only you'd been on the prosecution team during the trial eh?

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 08:10PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Not according to the stats they don't, there's very little risk of ever being convicted.

Bob, theres a problem with crime stats big time, here in the south.

Only a few weeks back the Gardai had to answer to the Dail that all their homicide/murder figures were all over the shop and that certain figures had to be either deleted or else have cases reopened.

Then we had all crime stats relatig to drink driving which meant people either did or didn't get breathylsed and some districts were allegedly brilliant whilst others were disastrous and in Conor Faugnans words of the AA, results of these inadequacies meant resources for traffic management wasn't adequately distributed and at best case, some drunk drivers probably evaded detection. At worst case scenario some road deaths may have been avoided.

Then we had the penalty points debacle were some people were wrongly convicted due to a bureacratic error and at best case, premiums were increased for a large number of motorists and at worst case put off the road and in some cases possible loss of jobs
All of the above occured down here in the Republc, and Coppinger or Brid Smyth or Aodhan oRiordain didnt organise protests for Gardai malfeaseance or misfeasance which affected 000s of people down here

However, 3 sport celebs are named up north, found not guilty, and all of a sudden there are calls for radical overhaul of legal system down here.

If they were 3 track suit wearing yobs from the Divis Flats we wouldn't be having this debate.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 08:11PM

torqtorq wrote: »

He was a 24 year old on the night in question.

Big difference between a 24 yr old and a 26 year old.

Are you taking the piss ?

Mrsmum · 31-03-2018 08:11PM

Rodin wrote: »

Unless convicted in a court of law, nobody is a rapist.

Therefore no 'rapists' are 'getting away with it.'

Legally maybe but in reality do you really think that ? I don't know what the RRC is needed for. Sure there are barely any rapes happening, isn't that right.

torqtorq · 31-03-2018 08:11PM

tretorn wrote: »

This case happened in 2016, the woman is now 21, she was nineteen at the time, Olding was twenty two and Jackson twenty four.

Olding was terribly drunk, probably a lot more drunk than the woman so probably so it wasnt as if he had all his wits about him either. We dont know how much Jackson had to drink but in any event all three of the adults in that room were drunk.

Which one of the men was twenty six at the time.

Down with accurate facts!

Ronaldinho · 31-03-2018 08:12PM

optogirl wrote: »

Fann Linn wrote: »

Okay, and what did your parents or teachers do?

I didn't tell them. I was embarassed by it.

It's this response that I find absolutely exasperating.

If parents aren't drilling into their children that they need to confide in them about this kind of stuff then it's pi $$ poor parenting imho.

When I was in primary school we were told: Say no, Run away, Tell someone (re drugs)

hynesie08 · 31-03-2018 08:12PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So a murderer who was never caught is not a murderer ? Is a robber who got off on a technicality not a robber . ?
Is a man who raped a young child and was never caught not a rapist ?

If someone is murdered, and the murderer flees, he will not be identified as a murderer until after he is convicted. They are a suspect until then, no matter how obvious it is.

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 08:14PM

drillyeye wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Cant be "some men", or "some people". No, it has to be "men", with the implication that its every single male on the planet.

Good God, you're slow. I was responding ironically to a man suggesting that a woman should not be drunk around 'men', outlining how ludicrous their suggestion was. Do keep up.

torqtorq · 31-03-2018 08:14PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Are you taking the piss ?

If you wish anybody to take you seriously then at the very least you should get the most basic of facts correct.

But then it does not fit with your narrative.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 08:14PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Anything factually wrong with that statement?

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit...wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad...

iamwhoiam · 31-03-2018 08:15PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

If someone is murdered, and the murderer flees, he will not be identified as a murderer until after he is convicted. They are a suspect until then, no matter how obvious it is.

You just called him a murderer without a conviction ? He murdered whether convicted or not .

Rodin · 31-03-2018 08:16PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Legally maybe but in reality do you really think that ? I don't know what the RRC is needed for. Sure there are barely any rapes happening, isn't that right.

Legally is all that matters.
Rape is a criminal offence. If not convicted, the criminal offence never happened.

People seem to struggle with this concept.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 08:16PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Remember that in the quest to get more rape convictions, innocent men can be hurt and imprisoned.

Alison Saunders, head of the CPS, put immense pressure on Police Services in the UK to up the number of rape convictions that they could get in courts.

You know what the net result was?

A number of innocent men falsely accused of rape with evidence being withheld that would exonerate them.

The result of this has meant that ALL rape cases in the last 2 years in the UK are now under investigation to see how many further cases of innocent men have been imprisoned.

Do we really want this type of thing happening in Ireland as well?

To help me understand your point, do you have any link to what is the known or suspected percentage of alleged rape incidents that are false?

Rodin · 31-03-2018 08:17PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

If someone is murdered, and the murderer flees, he will not be identified as a murderer until after he is convicted. They are a suspect until then, no matter how obvious it is.

One can be a killer and a person can be killed without one being a murderer and the deceased murdered.

People use legal terms inappropriately.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 08:18PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

Bob, theres a problem with crime stats big time, here in the south.

Only a few weeks back the Gardai had to answer to the Dail that all their homicide/murder figures were all over the shop and that certain figures had to be either deleted or else have cases reopened.

Then we had all crime stats relatig to drink driving which meant people either did or didn't get breathylsed and some districts were allegedly brilliant whilst others were disastrous and in Conor Faugnans words of the AA, results of these inadequacies meant resources for traffic management wasn't adequately distributed and at best case, some drunk drivers probably evaded detection. At worst case scenario some road deaths may have been avoided.

Then we had the penalty points debacle were some people were wrongly convicted due to a bureacratic error and at best case, premiums were increased for a large number of motorists and at worst case put off the road and in some cases possible loss of jobs
All of the above occured down here in the Republc, and Coppinger or Brid Smyth or Aodhan oRiordain didnt organise protests for Gardai malfeaseance or misfeasance which affected 000s of people down here

However, 3 sport celebs are named up north, found not guilty, and all of a sudden there are calls for radical overhaul of legal system down here.

If they were 3 track suit wearing yobs from the Divis Flats we wouldn't be having this debate.

Funnily enough I'm inclined to agree with you...

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 08:19PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Worried Father wrote: »

If I can't be proven it can't be proven and the perp is free to go. It's the only way it can be.

Do you really think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

And then people earnestly ask why most rape victims don't report it. Does that question need to be asked? Why would you not report a rape which would mean a court case hanging over you, possibly your name and info leaked and receiving threats and abuse from friends of the accused and/or the public, having every aspect of your entire sex life dragged up and used against you, details of your vagina spoken about in court and all the rest of it, all that to have a 98% chance of there not being enough conclusive evidence to convict the accused, and then be accused yourself of lying and 'crying rape'? How is this even still a question?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 08:19PM

torqtorq wrote: »

If you wish anybody to take you seriously then at the very least you should get the most basic of facts correct.

But then it does not fit with your narrative.

If you're going to play silly buggers , then you're going to have to explain why it's ok for a 24 year old professional athlete for Ireland to be binge drinking and having threesome sex with a drunk and vulnerable teenage girl and other rugby players but not a 26 year old one.

Ace2007 · 31-03-2018 08:19PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already said these peoples lives were not ruined by the trial, but by unsocial media, and that peoples identities should not be revealed in such a trial.

But you see it's cause of the media response to the trial that has led to the unsocial media issues.

A few years ago, a couple of Irish Rugby players were involved in a 3some that had a video - now one of those lads is a Grand Slam winner, there was no uproar cause everything was obv consensual. - Where was the media storm there - where were the marches about how the men were filmed doing this with a woman?

People often say actions speak louder than words, but now it appears that words speak louder than actions.

hynesie08 · 31-03-2018 08:20PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You just called him a murderer without a conviction ? He murdered whether convicted or not .

There has been a murder, there has been a murder victim, but if no one is convicted, in the eyes of the law, there is no murderer. Rape is the same.

I can know who did it, you can know, the dogs in the street can know, but officially he is not a murderer.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 08:21PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

If they were 3 track suit wearing yobs from the Divis Flats we wouldn't be having this debate.

That's correct, but that doesn't mean the system does not need changing.

Ulysses Gaze · 31-03-2018 08:21PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

To help me understand your point, do you have any link to what is the known or suspected percentage of alleged rape incidents that are false?

That is what is being investigated currently in the UK.

Scotland Yard is reviewing hundreds of rape, child abuse and sexual assault cases.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5207249/Female-barrister-cleared-student-rape-slams-police.html

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 08:22PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Funnily enough I'm inclined to agree with you...

And on that note I'm gonna sign off.
Big match tomorrow in Croker.
Good night folks.

fullstop · 31-03-2018 08:22PM

retro:electro wrote: »

You know you’ve been asked a tonne of questions right? And you just keep apple bobbing your head in ignoring everything asked and going on another rant. People in Spain must be laughing at us and our inability to answer questions

You know, it's uncanny how similar her posting style is to another poster who used to frequent this place...only ever posted in threads where gender or rape were the theme, and never answered any questions, just ranted and raved.

drillyeye · 31-03-2018 08:23PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Good God, you're slow. I was responding ironically to a man suggesting that a woman should not be drunk around 'men', outlining how ludicrous their suggestion was. Do keep up.

Nah, don't believe you. You were probably more than happy to paint "all men" the same as you love using "all women" as victims.

You would be a disaster in a trial with a man versus a woman. All you'd see is a woman, and automatically screw the man over.

Your belief system is downright dangerous.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 08:23PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

A few years ago, a couple of Irish Rugby players were involved in a 3some that had a video - now one of those lads is a Grand Slam winner, there was no uproar cause everything was obv consensual. - Where was the media storm there - where were the marches about how the men were filmed doing this with a woman?

As professional players for Ireland, were they all binge drinking and drunk, and was she a drunk vulnerable teenage girl, who was in bits the next day and went to the police to report rape ? Do you think that's acceptable conduct for a professional sportsperson representing Ireland ?

torqtorq · 31-03-2018 08:24PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If you're going to play silly buggers , then you're going to have to explain why it's ok for a 24 year old professional athlete for Ireland to be binge drinking and having threesome sex with a drunk and vulnerable teenage girl and other rugby players but not a 26 year old one.

I have passed no comment on anything you have said bar the fact that you have quoted his age incorrectly.

For you to say otherwise is dishonest and deceitful.

Owryan · 31-03-2018 08:24PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've already suggested a major one...allow a victim legal representation...

Allowing an independent expert in Sexual Assault to explain how victims can react to assaults...

Banning the parading of womens underwear in court...no reason not to allow the jury request if they feel it is neccessary....

How about you, any other suggestions to improve the deplorable conviction rate other than sticking our heads in the sand????

Victims are already represented by the prosecution. The state prosecutes the case, in effect the victim is only a witness is the process.

Experts already give evidence.

Underwear could be evidence, so it could have a material relevance to the case.

Sexual assault cases by their nature are difficult to prosecute as they tend to come down to who is more believable. Unless there is a witness (like this case) or some other clear, incontrovertible evidence they will always have a low conviction rate. This is not unique to Ireland, or Northern Ireland.

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 08:26PM

Rodin wrote: »

Mrsmum wrote: »

Legally maybe but in reality do you really think that ? I don't know what the RRC is needed for. Sure there are barely any rapes happening, isn't that right.

Legally is all that matters.
Rape is a criminal offence. If not convicted, the criminal offence never happened.

People seem to struggle with this concept.

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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