Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Strazdas · 30-03-2018 06:02PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I do have some sympathy for Steward Olding, after his statement, and the other lad charged with obstruction; but absolutely none for Paddy Jackson due to the aggressive statement given by his lawyer and now trying to sue for defamation. You would think he's had enough of court and keep his head down.

I would blame Jackson's lawyer mostly, he seems somewhat aggressive and confrontational going by his speech outside the Court after the trial.

Olding's lawyer was much more measured and conciliatory towards the young woman and towards everyone in general.

The Talking Bread · 30-03-2018 06:02PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

The idea of a trial is to persuade a jury. That is your job as representative for your client. I would have imagined a blood stained pair of underwear would have had some subtle, at the least, effect on some of the jury. It was heavily referenced in the evidence of her text messages so like all evidence if the prosecution feels it warrants using to "influence" the verdict in their "favour", naturally they would.

It is hardly rocket science!

Hmm, just read the article and seen it was the defence who used the underwear to "strengthen their case. Still obviously for the same attempts to influence the jury.

Hmm, just read the article and seen it was the defence who used the underwear to "strengthen their case. Still obviously for the same attempts to influence the jury.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2018 06:02PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

My background is middle class from a working class area. I went to a normal school and then a posh college. In England. The men there were worse by far. Well the jocks anyway.

This is my observation too. Interestingly the same people who were the most vocal about the working class were the same with interesting views about women. Classism, sexism and racism are usually bedfellows.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2018 06:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Similar post by the same poster in the legal forum (also now deleted by Mod, and banned)- that one was quoted by someone else. It's easily done (to quote posts)- not sure though what the legal aspect is when something like a defamation post by one poster, is quoted/re-tweeted by another. Is the re-tweeter also potentially liable?

I think they are. It could be argued that the re-tweeting was intentional.

RDM_83 again · 30-03-2018 06:04PM

dark crystal wrote: »

Seriously, take a break from the internet for a while. I honestly don't know anyone in my social circle, workplace or family who holds these hateful views on men. Not one. If you know one or more who does, keep your distance and get on with your life.

What's scary is this divide that's growing between the genders and it's going on on both sides. I've only ever encountered it on the internet which would make you wonder, who's driving it?

The paranoia this gender war crap stirs up is what's grim; we're not all out to get you jailed and castrated and you're not all out to rape us and keep us downtrodden. open your eyes and take a look around the real world and don't get so carried away getting nosebleeds about some fictional dystopian future the internet loons have you believing in.

I think Ireland is pretty decent about this outside the online sphere but it's a real world thing in parts of the UK and North America among some of the younger generations and you will meet people (on both sides) who fully buy into it here just it's rarely.

What's driving it is a hard question, personally I think it's because the philosophies and theories of the 70's and early 80's have come to be part of the mainstream.

The idea of class identity, tight nit community and nationalism have been fractured by both right -Thatcher and Reagan's individualism and Left -identity and ethnic minority focused politicians on the left (Emily Thornberry with her tweet showing a white van with union jacks says all that needs to be said about views on the working man that used to be the backbone of the English Labour party).

Instead people think and argue in terms of both wider but also shallower groups, this isn't just on the left either and that's understandable, if somebody has been taught for years that you can't negatively judge whole groups of course the whole "pale stale male" "gammon faces" etc are going to cause a bigger issue than for someone who hasn't grown up in a educational environment that has those thought processes. It's been referenced in this thread but the lack of anger over the not guilty verdict on the cork rappers tour bus is a good example of this selectivity in action.

A important one in terms of this discussion is the fact that social and romantic isolation has became more common, some people may be getting a lot of attention but on the flipside there is a higher proportion of people remaining as virgins to an older age (which isn't an exact thing but does point to increased romantic isolation for some).

Politically we can see the splits happening in the USA and to a lesser extent England, the Conservatives used to have a higher female vote share than Labour, this trend has changed, in the US a majority of white women voted for Trump yet so much of the opposition to him is framed in gender terms.

This increasing economic left right split isn't completely irrational either, it was less important when there wasn't a substantial amount of households lacking adult males but say your a single man in need of social housing would you literally ever get it as you would be continuously bounced down the lists, it's a sad fact but a single parent can be financially better off without the male partner about. Basically the idea that social welfare no longer serves both genders equally.

There is a whole load of other stuff too like how click bait sells, how easily activism can be co-opted by capatilism, increasing economic uncertainty for younger people and the sense shared by both left and right that things are not going to get better (I think that's simplistic though), the importance of image rather than substance in a social media raised generation

Stheno · 30-03-2018 06:05PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I would blame Jackson's lawyer mostly, he seems somewhat aggressive and confrontational going by his speech outside the Court after the trial.

Olding's lawyer was much more measured and conciliatory towards the young woman and towards everyone in general.

Career wise Jackson has probably lost much more than Olding.

Were it not for this case he'd most likely have a Grand Slam medal now

Olding not necessarily.

He was also accused of more serious offences

Atoms for Peace · 30-03-2018 06:08PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

Why should he keep his head down?

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

Fann Linn · 30-03-2018 06:09PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

He was found not guilty of a criminal charge.
He sends crass texts.

irishman86 · 30-03-2018 06:10PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Your own social circle is not exclusive. No I'm not a prude I don't talk about women referring to them as sluts and prostitutes. I show respect towards sex partners.

You dont, but most do talk like that
Not just men, women are equally guilty
Im sorry if you have lived a very sheltered life and missed out on well everything from 1940 onwards

irishrebe · 30-03-2018 06:10PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Fann Linn wrote: »

Why should he keep his head down?

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

At the same time, you can't have people calling people rapists when they were cleared of rape in a court of law.

tritium · 30-03-2018 06:10PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I would blame Jackson's lawyer mostly, he seems somewhat aggressive and confrontational going by his speech outside the Court after the trial.

Olding's lawyer was much more measured and conciliatory towards the young woman and towards everyone in general.

Based on the evidence of the trial Jackson may feel he has more to be angry about then the others. The defense evidence seemed to be that the accuser hit on him, then subsequently accused him of rape. If that’s his truthful story then I’d imagine he’s a very very angry young man right now

AudreyHepburn · 30-03-2018 06:11PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I do have some sympathy for Steward Olding, after his statement, and the other lad charged with obstruction; but absolutely none for Paddy Jackson due to the aggressive statement given by his lawyer and now trying to sue for defamation. You would think he's had enough of court and keep his head down.

He was defamed, hence the sueing for defamation. And given what he’s been through and what he has potentially lost as a result of the trial he has every right to be angry.

Why are people so determined to ignore that fact that Paddy Jackson is innocent?

irishman86 · 30-03-2018 06:13PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I love how youre speaking for all women now as well.
I and my friends have yet to refer to men as prostitutes or to a man as a merry go around after two of us took a turn on him and left him crying

You and your friends
Ive heard women speaking just as dirty and behaved just as dirty
Its like everyone pretends hen nights arent the biggest night mares in the service industry

Hoboo · 30-03-2018 06:13PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I do have some sympathy for Steward Olding, after his statement, and the other lad charged with obstruction; but absolutely none for Paddy Jackson due to the aggressive statement given by his lawyer and now trying to sue for defamation. You would think he's had enough of court and keep his head down.

Hes dragged into court on a rape charge which has destroyed his name, profile, and possibly career......Id be seething. I think he should be commended for holding back.

irishrebe · 30-03-2018 06:13PM

irishman86 wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

Your own social circle is not exclusive. No I'm not a prude I don't talk about women referring to them as sluts and prostitutes. I show respect towards sex partners.

You dont, but most do talk like that
Not just men, women are equally guilty
Im sorry if you have lived a very sheltered life and missed out on well everything from 1940 onwards

No, they don't. You must associate with total scumbags because most decent people do not talk like that. There are a minority of crass scumbags with no class who go on like that. It's very sad that you think using dehumanising and degrading language while talking about private sexual acts is in any way normal. It seems to be that people who behave like this believe that everybody behaves like this, as if they're living in a bubble. It's like people who do drugs and think everyone does drugs.

AudreyHepburn · 30-03-2018 06:13PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

Why should he apologize when he’s done nothing wrong?

He’s neither the first nor last person to do things they later regret under the influence.

C__MC · 30-03-2018 06:14PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

He had been accused of rape and sexual assault. There is a 50-50 chance that night that he was telling the truth and everything was consensual. Now he has lost everything possibly because of lies on her behalf. His name has been tarnished, of course he feels angry. I would to if I was accused of some of the stuff he was. It could have been blatant lies and might not have been.

Should senators representing Ireland be taking one side and tarnishing his name which was cleared by the jury. How would you feel if someone thought you got a non Guilty verdict due to your class?

Outlaw Pete · 30-03-2018 06:18PM

Nice to know tax payers money is being spent funding the likes of these lovely level headed folks over at the NWCI.

https://twitter.com/NWCI/status/979627211266445314

Den14 · 30-03-2018 06:20PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

This isn't something like a Rodney King situation where there's evidence of a crime having taken place but that the powers that be are covering it up. This is a situation where men have been found not guilty of rape in a court of law and the strongest witness for the defense was a woman. Yet still and all a protest is held by a crowd of predominantly young girls to chant that they still believe her regardless and all while they hold banners with feminist slogans.

You say you don't fear feminism. Well, my reply to that would be dependent on just what it is you think feminism is but given that you defending these people's actions, I highly doubt it's the same definition as people like Susan B Anthony or even Christina Hoff Sommers would have, but if it was, I'd not be fearing it either. Something tells me though, that it's more in line with the bastardized version of feminism propagated by the likes of Louise O'Neill and her ilk and if so, you very much have something to fear, you just don't realise it.

Agreed I think a large proportion of men share this idea of 'shure it's nothing to be worried about.' But this so called third wave feminism is slowly seeping ever more into society and it will keep doing so as men sit back and let it happen. These feminists are very determined to change the world. It has been a just and noble cause to give women more rights and liberties thanks indeed to them for doing so. However the extreme end however wish to push things further and they are dangerous. They are very influential and easily capture the hearts and minds of many women and indeed men. They don't really care about equality. All they care about is making women the more powerful and dominant of the sexes. To hell with the men. They have increasing influence in media and government and this will inevitably cause changes which will ultimately affect men as a result. These sleeping men won't know what hit them if and when the rug is pulled from under them

irishrebe · 30-03-2018 06:20PM

C__MC wrote: »

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

It's a thing called decency, he got himself into a very compromising and vulgar scenario and doesn't seem to be showing any contrition only spitefulness.

He had been accused of rape and sexual assault. There is a 50-50 chance that night that he was telling the truth and everything was consensual. Now he has lost everything possibly because of lies on her behalf. His name has been tarnished, of course he feels angry. I would to if I was accused of some of the stuff he was. It could have been blatant lies and might not have been.

Should senators representing Ireland be taking one side and tarnishing his name which was cleared by the jury. How would you feel if someone thought you got a non Guilty verdict due to your class?

Behaviour such as public figures using a public platform like Twitter to make accusations would be setting a dangerous precedent if it went unchallenged. It's one thing discussing the case down the pub with your mates, it's quite another to make a public accusation on social media. People don't seem to see the difference these days. They use Twitter as if they're having a private conversation in their local.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2018 06:21PM

I think Olding's lawyer acted completely irresponsibly too TBH. He made some sort of bigoted distinction between class and tolerance of rape which was highlighted in the following article.

Again, likely a symptom of Ireland's stellar ability to have barristers from a very limited socio-economic class.

CAMPAIGNERS against sexual violence have hit out at comments made by a senior defence barrister during the rugby rape trial regarding 'middle class' women not tolerating rape.
Louise Kennedy of Women's Aid NI said she feared some of the statements made in the case of four Ulster rugby players, who were cleared of all charges, would adversely impact women coming forward to report crimes.
During the trial in Belfast defence barrister Frank O'Donoghue QC, who represented Stuart Olding, told the jury there were a string of questions police should have asked the woman who made the allegations.
"Why didn't she scream the house down?" he said
"A lot of very middle-class girls were downstairs.
"They were not going to tolerate a rape or anything like that."
The Irish News contacted the Bar Library and asked Mr O'Donoghue to respond to the criticism to his comments. So far however there has been no response.
Read more: Paddy Jackson can make bid to recover legal defence costs
Hard partying Ulster rugby players cause rift in dressing room
The Women's Aid worker said her organisation was "very clear" that rape "does not discriminate against anybody" and that most victims did not "scream or run away" but instead became numb with fear.
Ms Kennedy, who is the body's Regional Policy and Information Co-ordinator, said: "It's common knowledge that the trauma response of the body system is not just 'fight or flight'. It's a bit deeper than that," she added.
"You could fight or might run away - but many people freeze, tense up and do nothing, you then might start diplomatically try to convince someone to stop and then you may go completely limp.
"With regards to 'middle class' women not 'tolerating rape', we are very clear we support victims of domestic and sexual violence across Northern Ireland. It does not discriminate between class, ethnicity...abuse and rape happens everywhere.''
The leading campaigner said the Women's Aid helpline had received distressed calls since the trial started two months ago from victims who said it had "put them off ever reporting rape of sexual violence to police" or "going through the criminal justice system".
There has been severe criticism of "vile" comments made about the woman at the centre of the trial on social media.
Read more: Campaigning doctor urges rape victims to seek help at pioneering support centre
South Belfast Green Party assembly member Clare Bailey, who works for the support group Nexus, expressed concern about any suggestion that someone from a more privileged background cared more about rape victims.
"Rape is not just a sexual crime, it is about power and control," Ms Bailey said.
Ms Bailey said she was aware victims had been "re-traumatised" by the coverage of the trial both in mainstream media and on Twitter.

pumpkin4life · 30-03-2018 06:28PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

A important one in terms of this discussion is the fact that social and romantic isolation has became more common, some people may be getting a lot of attention but on the flipside there is a higher proportion of people remaining as virgins to an older age (which isn't an exact thing but does point to increased romantic isolation for some).

Bingo.

What you have now is a sexual free market place, where women are the choosers and the men are the chasers.

Remember, she went to the house party, all by herself, to meet these lads. And being rugby lads, their attractiveness to wans is far higher than Alan the Accountant or the indian lad working as a computer programmer in the docklands.

It makes perfect sense she did why she did and any very attractive man has stories as crazy as that, though they don't get to that stage of court appearances obviously. Most men will never ever be in this position.

You get a free market system and you end up with some big winners and big losers as well. More men with nothing and more wans ending up single.

Its like with IQ and automation. If you're fat, bald, small, not the most charismatic, not the wealthiest or the lad with the coolest job, than unlike the past, the probability you're going to end up with nothing is just going to end up increasing in the next while.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 30-03-2018 06:28PM

Den14 wrote: »

Agreed I think a large proportion of men share this idea of 'shure it's nothing to be worried about.' But this so called third wave feminism is slowly seeping ever more into society and it will keep doing so as men sit back and let it happen. These feminists are very determined to change the world. It has been a just and noble cause to give women more rights and liberties thanks indeed to them for doing so. However the extreme end however wish to push things further and they are dangerous. They are very influential and easily capture the hearts and minds of many women and indeed men. They don't really care about equality. All they care about is making women the more powerful and dominant of the sexes. To hell with the men. They have increasing influence in media and government and this will inevitably cause changes which will ultimately affect men as a result. These sleeping men won't know what hit them if and when the rug is pulled from under them

It's not "feminazis" or the like that are responsible in this situation. I'm as conservative and anti-SJW as they come and have to keep my trap shut in the circles in which I move.

But in this case the Fantastic Four (as I assume we are now obliged to call them) irrespective of the criminal trial must take responsible for their actions and the fallout from that. Their actions and behaviour and correspondences were morally puerile and act as confirmation bias to women who've have bad experiences with men.

So far I'm not seeing any evidence of any remorse or sensibility.

Roger Hassenforder · 30-03-2018 06:31PM

Uncharted wrote: »

He was defamed.... hence the defamation case.

Theres something very hypocritical to suggest a defendant cleared by a jury in a criminal prosecution, should be discouraged from excercising his own lawful rights..."his rights dont matter"..."he should keep his head down now"...etc.

I hope he sues the fcuk out of him.

Boys will be boys held to a higher standard indeed.

#ibelievehim

FrancieBrady · 30-03-2018 06:31PM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

It's not "feminazis" or the like that are responsible in this situation. I'm as conservative and anti-SJW as they come and have to keep my trap shut in the circles in which I move.

But in this case the Fantastic Four (as I assume we are now obliged to call them) irrespective of the criminal trial must take responsible for their actions and the fallout from that. Their actions and behaviour and correspondences were morally puerile and act as confirmation bias to women who've have bad experiences with men.

So far I'm not seeing any evidence of any remorse or sensibility.

Olding made a genuine statement of regret and contrition for his involvement in the events that night.

I think they will all have learned a valuable, if hard, lesson.

The Talking Bread · 30-03-2018 06:33PM

That jury were left with no choice I feel looking at that evidence. Both accounts of the night are equally persuasive as they are unpersuasive, if you get me.
I think the trial followed due course and I respect and understand the jury were in a position where they had to make that verdict but If a gun was held to my head I would probably trust her account. Saying that, I might read that article again and come to a different conclusion which emphasises how difficult a case it was for the jury and how understandable that a "guilty BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT" verdict wasn't reached.

The deleting of that text message and the little "get their stories straight" meeting the next day seemed very much significant I thought. As did the "phone got broke and all my texts were deleted" comment.

It really is a case that plays with your mind.

FixdePitchmark · 30-03-2018 06:33PM

theoneeyedman wrote: »

There is no chance whatsoever of Jackson going to court on this.
Any lawyer (barrister?) would easily make it a rehash of the original trial. Jackson would be on the defensive, if anything would have to prove his innocence, which he would have difficulty doing I would suggest. He'd be nuts to open the can of worms again.

Been following the commentary during the week, and all I can say is WTF. I don't do twitter, but I never cease to be amazed about how the dumb, idiotic, and plain stupid attention seekers can't wait to spill their bile to all and sundry. That this includes public figures and politicians... Well... Says a lot about leadership in our society really.

If Aodhan has any real conviction - he should call the bluff of the Jackson Legal team.

There would be an absoulte top of the league legal team ready to take PJ to court and would do it pro bono.

The Jackson team should keep the head down.

FrancieBrady · 30-03-2018 06:36PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If Aodhan has any real conviction - he should call the bluff of the Jackson Legal team.

There would be an absoulte top of the league legal team ready to take PJ to court and would do it pro bono.

The Jackson team should keep the head down.

I think it will be Aodhan that will be keeping his head down.

irishman86 · 30-03-2018 06:36PM

irishrebe wrote: »

No, they don't. You must associate with total scumbags because most decent people do not talk like that. There are a minority of crass scumbags with no class who go on like that. It's very sad that you think using dehumanising and degrading language while talking about private sexual acts is in any way normal. It seems to be that people who behave like this believe that everybody behaves like this, as if they're living in a bubble. It's like people who do drugs and think everyone does drugs.

No i associate with every day people
I'm just not in denial how people speak
The word bravado exists for a reason
I honestly think you havent a clue what you are talking about, as clearly you have never met a young lad in your life
Dont worry clearly there is a few like you who have lived a ridiculously sheltered life

Mrs Shuttleworth · 30-03-2018 06:37PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Bingo.

What you have now is a sexual free market place, where women are the choosers and the men are the chasers.

Remember, she went to the house party, all by herself, to meet these lads. And being rugby lads, their attractiveness to wans is far higher than Alan the Accountant or the indian lad working as a computer programmer in the docklands.

It makes perfect sense she did why she did and any very attractive man has stories as crazy as that, though they don't get to that stage of court appearances obviously. Most men will never ever be in this position.

You get a free market system and you end up with some big winners and big losers as well. More men with nothing and more wans ending up single.

Its like with IQ and automation. If you're fat, bald, small, not the most charismatic, not the wealthiest or the lad with the coolest job, than unlike the past, the probability you're going to end up with nothing is just going to end up increasing in the next while.

The entire fallacy of "love" and "romance" is based initially on sex, and not on connections in any other way. Men sleep with women first then decide if they want to get to know them beyond that.

Those who aren't very good at the "merry go round at the carnival" (to quote the defendants) get left behind. This case proves that quite probably they are better off.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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