Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

average_runner · 29-03-2018 02:08PM

GreeBo wrote: »

But you think its ok for her to text her friends and say the lads raped her?

Seems fair.

Lets be fair here, we do not know what happened.

As for the lads boasting, all that does, is tell you the class of the individuals or lack of class.

Going by the amount of time it took to reach the verdict, means the evidence was weak and jurors felt they had no choice but to deliver the verdict.

It still doesn't mean it happened or not, but one thing for sure, no one comes out well from this. It should never of happened in the public eye.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 29-03-2018 02:08PM

That graphic of "facts" going around - interesting that they choose to highlight Dara Florences statement that contradicts Jacksons, but completely ignore the fact she also states it was clearly (to her) consensual. The vast majority of it is nonsense.

I read a lot of reaction on Twitter and one thing that stands out on both sides is how many people seem to have made their minds up from the start, and don't deviate from that no matter what is presented to them. Even the less vitriolic ones on the "ibelieveher" side seem happy to discuss until a relevant point is made that throws out their argument, then they respond with a "there's no point talking to you".

For what its worth I believe her more than them, but there is absolutely no way a jury could confirm their guilt beyond any reasonable doubt, given the statement from Dara Florence and the lack of anything compelling from the prosecution side. I personally think they were probably guilty of something in the grey area, but its not possible to convict on the black and white issue based on the evidence presented.

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 02:09PM

Mr.H wrote:

So BlueWolf didnt lie about what I said? So the user ....... didnt say they would rather be accused of rape than have me rape them?

I'm talking about your interactions with me. Although, the rape one is stupid, nobody CALLED you a rapist or even insinuated that. It was a hypothetical and I think you know that.

Mr.H wrote:

I have no problem standing behind what I said. Again. I believe what I said. I may have not explained it while I wrote it but I believe it.

You did not explain it well, no, hence why I challenged you.

Mr.H wrote:

All rape victims have access to help

True but I feel like you are not understanding how hard it is to seek help. Take depression for example, they are always telling people to reach out. Why? Because they're aware a lot of people don't, not because they don't want to but it's a hard thing to do.

Mr.H wrote:

No victims of false accusations have access to any form of help

This is true and it is unfair.

Mr.H wrote:

I am not saying that rape victims are better or worse off. I am saying that in terms of getting help, Victims of false allegations are in a worse position and are less able to move on.

That's a far different thing to what you originally said so I think you can understand why I called you on it. I can concede that they may be in a worse position but the less able to move on seems circumstantial. Not everybody is the same. If everybody was able to reach out then I would have no complaints with what you said. The reality is many people do not feel able and that is not their fault.

_Dara_ · 29-03-2018 02:11PM

I'm disappointed in the lack of logical thinking used by a lot of #ibelieveher folk in the aftermath of this. I know some of them. They are intelligent people. But there is literally no talking to them.

I'm sympathetic to a lot of feminist causes. (not all, which is why I don't call myself a feminist) But I just cannot feel sympathetic to this. The verdict was the right one based on the evidence presented. If the verdict as disregarded, think what that would mean for the justice system.

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

jr86 · 29-03-2018 02:11PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

People like that genuinely need help

GreeBo · 29-03-2018 02:11PM

Sidebaro wrote: »

I refuse to believe that you think that lads bragging about sex is the same thing as reaching out to a friend when you feel that sex was non consensual.

Worst night ever. So I got raped. :(:(:(:(

Yeah, seems like the sort of text a traumatised rape victim would send a couple of hours after the incident.

storker · 29-03-2018 02:12PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

Exactly!

But the outcry against our legal system is just so frustrating to me. Phrases like, "Once again we have been let down by our own country" by people from Dublin. Or people going on about the facts but can't get the most simple fact that it was under Northern Irish law correct.

This is what happens when people get their "knowledge" from Twitter and Facebook. In comparison, Wikipedia looks almost authoritative...

jr86 · 29-03-2018 02:12PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

I'm disappointed in the lack of logical thinking used by a lot of #ibelieveher folk in the aftermath of this. I know some of them. They are intelligent people. But there is literally no talking to them.

I'm sympathetic to a lot of feminist causes. (not all, which is why I don't call myself a feminist) But I just cannot feel sympathetic to this. The verdict was the right one based on the evidence presented. If the verdict as disregarded, think what that would mean for the justice system.

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

Yeah, lots of intelligent people on Facebook joining the bandwagon I can see

There's no way trials like this can be subjected to such media scrutiny in future.

The reaction is absolutely disturbing

Adamocovic · 29-03-2018 02:13PM

I'm actually worried the marches and protests will have an even more negative affect on peoples decisions to come forward with information regarding rape.

So many people seem misinformed and believe our Legal system is the same as the Northern Irish Law. If people see this and begin to think the same they may think what's the point of going to the gardai out of fear the system is against them.

This harms the work that has been made to encourage people to come forward by the implementations of laws to protect their anonymity, public exclusion from the trial, keep the accused anonymous too. It's rather quite upsetting and until the people protesting seem to realise the differences and look to encourage people to step forward rather than falsely blaming our system it will only have a negative impact.

wexie · 29-03-2018 02:13PM

jr86 wrote: »

People like that genuinely need help

You can't help people that not only refuse to believe they need help but believe they are right.

Gunmonkey · 29-03-2018 02:13PM

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

A dangerously stupid statement to make. I'd like to see her try to explain her logic

Doubly so because two of the lads werent even up on charges of rape!

Just jail innocent people to ensure any guilty ones are too....sounds like something out of Stalinist-Russia, you will have a 100% conviction rate if you jail 300% of the accused!

meeeeh · 29-03-2018 02:14PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

Why not? There is plenty of nonsense floating about from both side. If anything too many people (me included) speak too much about it.

GreeBo · 29-03-2018 02:15PM

average_runner wrote: »

Lets be fair here, we do not know what happened.

As for the lads boasting, all that does, is tell you the class of the individuals or lack of class.

Going by the amount of time it took to reach the verdict, means the evidence was weak and jurors felt they had no choice but to deliver the verdict.

It still doesn't mean it happened or not, but one thing for sure, no one comes out well from this. It should never of happened in the public eye.

100% agree, delving into peoples personal lives and making them public is not good for anyone involved.

But I think its highly unfair to say the lads spoke about her in a "vile nature" yet its fine for her to accuse them of rape via the same medium.

razorblunt · 29-03-2018 02:15PM

storker wrote: »

So an injustice done to four people is better than an injustice done to one. Got it.

Here's the logic that underpins this kind of BS...

"Someone must be punished...this is someone...therefore we must punish him."

Fixed your post.

storker · 29-03-2018 02:15PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

Stop teasing...what did you reply?

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 02:16PM

GreeBo wrote:

Yeah, seems like the sort of text a traumatised rape victim would send a couple of hours after the incident.

Why not? This isn't Hollywood, it's real life. People have differing ways of approaching stuff. Maybe she was being flippant to see if her friend would recognise that it was a lot worse than she was insinuating with that text. You don't know their relationship or what was going through her mind.

razorblunt · 29-03-2018 02:18PM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

That graphic of "facts" going around - interesting that they choose to highlight Dara Florences statement that contradicts Jacksons, but completely ignore the fact she also states it was clearly (to her) consensual. The vast majority of it is nonsense.

I read a lot of reaction on Twitter and one thing that stands out on both sides is how many people seem to have made their minds up from the start, and don't deviate from that no matter what is presented to them. Even the less vitriolic ones on the "ibelieveher" side seem happy to discuss until a relevant point is made that throws out their argument, then they respond with a "there's no point talking to you".

For what its worth I believe her more than them, but there is absolutely no way a jury could confirm their guilt beyond any reasonable doubt, given the statement from Dara Florence and the lack of anything compelling from the prosecution side. I personally think they were probably guilty of something in the grey area, but its not possible to convict on the black and white issue based on the evidence presented.

Has anyone gone to town on the graphic? The person that created it is "welcoming challenges" but I don't think anyone has actually bothered.

VinLieger · 29-03-2018 02:18PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

Good god, theres far too many people looking to simply throw the rules we deliberate our justice system by out the window

Mr.H · 29-03-2018 02:19PM

Sidebaro wrote: »

I'm talking about your interactions with me. Although, the rape one is stupid, nobody CALLED you a rapist or even insinuated that. It was a hypothetical and I think you know that.

You did not explain it well, no, hence why I challenged you.

True but I feel like you are not understanding how hard it is to seek help. Take depression for example, they are always telling people to reach out. Why? Because they're aware a lot of people don't, not because they don't want to but it's a hard thing to do.

This is true and it is unfair.

That's a far different thing to what you originally said so I think you can understand why I called you on it. I can concede that they may be in a worse position but the less able to move on seems circumstantial. Not everybody is the same. If everybody was able to reach out then I would have no complaints with what you said. The reality is many people do not feel able and that is not their fault.

I do agree that not everyone is the same and its not black and white.

I do think that as a society we need to be more open about these things. While generally we talk about how young men dont like to speak up and talk, we should also encourage young women to talk. I would hate the idea of one of my friends or my daughter going through such trauma and feeling scared to speak out.

I blame our stigma on counselling. Its something else I mentioned earlier that some didnt like but I think that everyone from a young age should receive mandatory counselling. The same way kids get vaccines and check ups during their early years, I feel like they should aslo see a counselor once a year during primary school and every 6 months in secondary. This would help with issues such as managing stress and bullying. It would help them to develop social skills needed in their future as well as getting rid of the stigma about talking to someone.

It is sad that their are victims of sexual abuse out there who wont come forward because they are worried about how society will treat them. Looking at this thread I am sure both sides would scare the sh1t outta them.

NIMAN · 29-03-2018 02:19PM

I think this case perhaps highlights the issue of how porn has changed over the recent decades, and it's effect it will have on our adolescents.

If they are viewing a lot of violent porn online, with so much extreme stuff passed off as normal behaviour, young lads of the future will be in a grey area when it comes to having sex.

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 02:19PM

lawred2 wrote:

the loolah is strong in that one

It's a bad tweet and you can tell she's biased. There are a lot of people on the other side of the fence that have said equally stupid things and far worse, look through this thread. There's this perception on both sides of 'they're crazy, we're the reasonable ones'. The extreme views on both sides should be ignored in a debate because they're just that, extreme.

Permabear · 29-03-2018 02:19PM

This post has been deleted.

29-03-2018 02:20PM

I must have missed the memo where we became a united Ireland and one jurisdiction.

Comments like "the Irish Judaical system has failed the woman", "women of Ireland are not safe"

A protest at the spire to protest against the criminal judicial system :rolleyes:

PhlegmyMoses · 29-03-2018 02:20PM

Sidebaro wrote: »

Why not? This isn't Hollywood, it's real life. People have differing ways of approaching stuff. Maybe she was being flippant to see if her friend would recognise that it was a lot worse than she was insinuating with that text. You don't know their relationship or what was going through her mind.

Said it already, but in some quarters, this kind of handwaving and explaining away some of the inconsistencies for her is not being applied to the guys.

I'll state again that I don't know what to think about this case, beyond the fact that each person's story that was involved is littered with weirdness and odd behaviour, going purely on what the papers are reporting of course.

_Dara_ · 29-03-2018 02:21PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Why not? There is plenty of nonsense floating about from both side. If anything too many people (me included) speak too much about it.

I wasn't really thinking about sides, to be honest. I agree with the side that thinks the verdict was the right one. So even if there is nonsense coming from people who agree with me, that doesn't change my view.

seamus · 29-03-2018 02:21PM

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Doubly so because two of the lads werent even up on charges of rape!

Looking at her twitter feed, her apparent logic is that the situation was dodgy enough that they should probably be locked up.

Another one of the "if you can't prove it wasn't rape, then it was rape" crew.

Strazdas · 29-03-2018 02:21PM

jr86 wrote: »

People like that genuinely need help

It's only one person's opinion on social media though. There have been a lot of attacks on the complainant on Twitter calling her a liar and a slut and saying she should be put on trial etc. All it illustrates is that there are a lot of idiots posting on social media.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-03-2018 02:21PM

Mr.H wrote: »

No your not. You are trying to say they are innocent and attaching an *

They are innocent full stop

No I just understand the law and basic logic but I do not think you do.
What you are doing is this:

Mr.H wrote: »

The woman for some reason called it rape

Mr.H wrote: »

The woman either lied or she thought she was telling the truth.

The verdict does not prove she was lying and does not prove she was not raped. Which you are clearly trying to do an more than one post now!

The verdict shows there was not enough evidence to prove she was raped.

You might be on the right side of the argument but your logic is as bad as those who are on the wrong side of this argument.

Spudmonkey · 29-03-2018 02:21PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

I'm disappointed in the lack of logical thinking used by a lot of #ibelieveher folk in the aftermath of this. I know some of them. They are intelligent people. But there is literally no talking to them.

I'm sympathetic to a lot of feminist causes. (not all, which is why I don't call myself a feminist) But I just cannot feel sympathetic to this. The verdict was the right one based on the evidence presented. If the verdict as disregarded, think what that would mean for the justice system.

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

With a lot of reactions you'd see there is almost a positive feedback loop of behaviour (North Korean wailing over the death of the dear leader comes to mind) over some of the comments, each person trying to out do the next by looking the most virtuous. Until of course as someone already pointed out, someone truly jumps the shark and reckons they'd rather see innocent people go to prison rather that have potentially guilty people walk free.

_Dara_ · 29-03-2018 02:22PM

storker wrote: »

Stop teasing...what did you reply?

Wasn't teasing, you can look it up! Far too lazy to go back and copy it.