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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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  • #1982
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,820 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    mayolady14 wrote: »
    but I think we do need to look at how we try rape cases, and how victims are spoken about. Any comment section is full of young men (not always, but generally) seemingly delighted that this “bitch” was caught out in a lie (which of course is not proven).

    I also think we need to get over this thought process that every man (especially sportsmen) is a pillar of the community and above the law.

    what about the protests on our streets that basically want men acquitted by the courts jailed? theres two sides on this and id argue the baying mob looking from them to be locked up us louder than the "young men".

    and if the thought process you are speaking about existed why were these 4 men subjected to a 10 week trial when it was obvious early on that there was no evidence of a rape?


  • #1983
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,285 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I assume it's the treatment of rape victims in general and I assume they're striking when the iron is hot, i.e. while everyone is still discussing rape and consent.



    If it's this then I disagree with the protest.

    Well it's interesting to see how angry many women (and especially young women) are with the verdict. Perhaps some good will come out of this and it will open up a major debate about the whole issue of consent, rather than the purely legalistic terms it is being talked about now.


  • #1984
    Nermal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,836 ✭✭✭Nermal


    mayolady14 wrote: »
    It’s about everyone who says “you should fight your attacker” “if it was me I’d scream the house down” when you don’t have a ****ing clue what you’d do in that situation because you’ve never been in it.

    If you don't indicate you don't consent to something, how do you think anyone is going to know? Do you think men will stop to ask?


  • #1985
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    mayolady14 wrote: »
    I take your point on board but you can understand the advice is too little to late for victims? We know we should’ve struggled we know we should’ve screamed but we couldn’t so what now? I think you’re coming from a good place but I don’t think the comments are nessecarily helpful.

    In America there is a legal principle of reasonable resistance. I'm glad we dont have this here or in UK however we sort of do have it in that it becomes very difficult to prove rape unless there's reasonable resistance.

    Yes it's too late to change anything. I commented on the fact that it's unfortunate that any victim didn't resist because it's almost impossible to get a conviction otherwise.
    mayolady14 wrote: »
    Any comment section is full of young men (not always, but generally) seemingly delighted that this “bitch” was caught out in a lie (which of course is not proven).

    Agreed it was not proven that the woman in question was caught out in a lie. If it was she would be prosecuted for perjury.
    mayolady14 wrote: »
    Ie seem to have lost the meaning of consent. And when you try to have this conversation, men jump up and down about written consent.

    It's my understanding that consent for sex in Ireland and the UK operates under a standard of someone giving verbal or otherwise. Personally I think that's crap. Otherwise is too vague a word for defining something as serious as sexual consent.

    I also agree that we as a society have lost the meaning of the word consent.

    Some people act as if verbal or otherwise means she is in the same house as me so obviously she wants it.

    People act in a way that could be considered consent under a verbal or otherwise test feel ashamed and cry rape.

    It's crap it's vague and unfortunately that's the way it is. It needs to be looked at and defined in a way that the courts have a legal standard. Its a tragedy that people can feel they were raped and the perpetrator can feel she consented and that there's any sort of grey area. I believe that is what happened here. Jackson and Olding felt that they received otherwise consent and the woman involved felt she was being raped or decided after the fact that she didn't consent and it was rape.

    Personally I don't believe in otherwise consent for sexual activities except in a long term relationship where both parties know each other well enough to accurately judge an otherwise consent.


  • #1986
    storker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,712 ✭✭✭storker


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Yeah sure, just small minor little things that need to be fixed. So hyperbolic, stating that women are forced to give birth to their attackers' babies, things like that. Looking to prosecute desperate women who take matters into their own hands. Letting a woman die in a hospital bed, poisoned because of the fetus inside her, because removing it would have been an evil abortion.Yeah, this is exactly how a European country should operate in the 21st century.

    Well it's a funny kind of totalitarian state that has...
    • Democratic elections
    • Parliamentary opposition
    • Freedom to criticise the government
    • Freedom of assiciation
    • A free press
    • Separation of church and state
    • Religious freedom
    • Non-political armed forces
    • Independent judiciary

    This is why scattergun-style exaggeration isn't really working for you here...tell me that women pregnant by rape shouldn't have to carry the baby to term and I'll nod my head and agree with you...tell me that prosecuting women for seeking an abortion is unjust and I'll nod my head and agree with you...tell me allowing a woman to die even though an abortion might save her life and I'll agree with you.

    Put a petition in front of me to fix any of these things and I'll sign it, set up a referendum on them and I'll vote to change it. But...stamp your foot and keep repeating the claim that the existence of these things makes Ireland a totalitarian state and I'll shake my head, mentally dismiss you as a crank, and wonder if you have any real idea of what a totalitarian state really looks like.


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  • #1987
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭C__MC


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    What’s the story with them deleting texts? Why no obstruction of justice convictions?

    Most texts were retrieved but didn’t really make any different to the case. Harrison had his phone wiped, he alleged it broke but prosecutors didn’t follow it up in the case for whatever reason. There was no cover up.


  • #1988
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Nermal wrote: »
    If you don't indicate you don't consent to something, how do you think anyone is going to know? Do you think men will stop to ask?

    I think if somebody else jumps in you can’t assume consent.


  • #1989
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Rape culture in Ireland although this was the U.K.

    That’s stupid for sure. There was a lot of that kinda nonsense on twitter last night. The shamed to be Irish crew.

    My own point of view is that this woman certainly believed she was raped, that consent wasn’t granted for all the activities. I don’t think it was just remorse.

    That’s hard to prove though.

    Had a check during my coffee on instagram. A few friends of mine have gone to the march, with captions saying the Irish government have let them down.

    Maybe I'm an ignorant asshole but despite having valid opinions and arguments I can't take them seriously while they continue to blame the Irish government for a trial outside our jurisdiction.

    Especially considering if it was to occur in Ireland, while still issues, there would be more attempts at keeping the information anonymous. There are many differences in how our legal system deals with these situations.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/how-rape-trials-in-republic-differ-from-those-in-north-1.3443644


  • #1990
    garbo speaks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 300 ✭✭garbo speaks


    wexie wrote: »
    What is it they are actually protesting against though?

    They want a society whereby anyone accused of rape is automatically jailed without trial and due process. And when do they want it? NOW! :D


  • #1991
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Strazdas wrote:
    Well it's interesting to see how angry many women (and especially young women) are with the verdict. Perhaps some good will come out of this and it will open up a major debate about the whole issue of consent, rather than the purely legalistic terms it is being talked about now.

    That's what I would hope and I assume any rational thinking person would hope so too.


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  • #1992
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The biggest issue is having to clear a "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle. Almost impossible where it's one person's word against another's ( or 4 others).

    If there was a third option of allowing a jury to convict on the balance of probabilities, with a lesser sentence associated with this conviction.

    Just spitballing here, not sure if such an approach would be fair, but something's very wrong with our current system.

    There is - it's called a civil trial. And there is no way in hell that the crime of rape which is so heinous and carries with it so many repercussions should be in this category.


  • #1993
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    wexie wrote: »
    What is it they are actually protesting against though?

    The outcome of the trial?
    I'm really torn about these protests.

    It's reactionary stuff from people who are angry about what other people say on Twitter. In effect those behind the protests believe that the woman in the case has been raped and the guys have "gotten off". And that this is just another example of rape culture and toxic masculinity.

    But we can't have trial by mob. The woman wasn't raped. We have to respect the justice system, whether we agree with the outcome or not.

    The reason I'm torn about the protests is that there are valid aspects to their anger - such all of the people hurling abuse at the woman and calling her a slut or a liar or a money-grabber or whatever. These are examples of misogyny and toxic masculinity.

    And there still needs to be proper conversations around the conduct of rape trials - both in the courtroom and the public reaction to them afterwards.

    But they're basing the protests on the false belief that they know better than the justice system and the woman in this case has been wronged.


  • #1994
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I couldn't see a reply to it on the next 3 pages but I'll deal with your above reply anyway - I'm not satisfied because you didn't reply to the question. What about the cases of rape victims who DON'T report, why is being falsely accused a worse thing to happen you in this instance? You say that being falsely accused is worse than being raped but maybe you mean it's worse than being raped and getting proper help. I'd still disagree with that by the way.

    OK first of all I was goaded into saying that false accusations were worse than rape because BlueWolf lied about my original post.

    BlueWolf wrote that I said "I hope she had genuinely been raped"

    I wrote "I hope she genuinely felt that she was raped, because making a false accusation is the worse thing you can do to anyone"

    This led to people claiming I meant its worse than rape. I said yes it is. I then said something like its apples and oranges. People like yourself said they would rather be accused of rape than have me rape them........................ I mean ffs now I am a rapist??

    Then I explained what I meant about how being wrongfully accused can be worse because being raped you have ways to deal with it. There is justice, counselling and time that will all help you to move on and have some sort of life. But when you are wrongfully accused there are no options. There is no justice. Counselling wont stop strangers from making threats and comments. Time wont erase it from your kids minds. Their kids minds and so on.

    So now you want to change the posts and make it about unreported victims?

    How can anyone compare that??? I feel like you are trying to get me to take back what I am saying but I wont. I cant. I believe it.

    Unreported rape victims will suffer because they have no access to counselling justice or time because they havent dealt with it. But they do have choice. They have the choice to come forward. If they feel like they cant well that is their choice. Victims of false accusations have no choice.


  • #1995
    Nermal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,836 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    I think if somebody else jumps in you can’t assume consent.

    What law would that be, exactly?

    It's ludicrous. If you don't like what's happening, you try to make it stop. You can claim afterwards that you were pressured or froze but that's never going to be provable, is it?


  • #1996
    mayolady14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭mayolady14


    Nermal wrote: »
    If you don't indicate you don't consent to something, how do you think anyone is going to know? Do you think men will stop to ask?


    Why the **** shouldn’t they? Fighting back isn’t the only way to say I don’t consent, especially if I’ve told you I didn’t want to have sec with you from outset


  • #1997
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,172 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Adamocovic wrote: »
    Had a check during my coffee on instagram. A few friends of mine have gone to the march, with captions saying the Irish government have let them down.

    Maybe I'm an ignorant asshole but despite having valid opinions and arguments I can't take them seriously while they continue to blame the Irish government for a trial outside our jurisdiction.

    Especially considering if it was to occur in Ireland, while still issues, there would be more attempts at keeping the information anonymous. There are many differences in how our legal system deals with these situations.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/how-rape-trials-in-republic-differ-from-those-in-north-1.3443644

    Sounds a bit like the "No to foregin games" guy in the Celtic top.


  • #1998
    hynesie08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,241 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Well it's interesting to see how angry many women (and especially young women) are with the verdict. Perhaps some good will come out of this and it will open up a major debate about the whole issue of consent, rather than the purely legalistic terms it is being talked about now.

    Unfortunately it probably won't, one thing I've noticed with this and repeal the eighth is that while their hearts are in the right place, most of the ones I've spoken to (admittedly a small number) don't have any clue what the next step is. They will come out today talking about this trial, but won't have an answer for how to fix it. They scream revolution but don't know how to spell it.


  • #1999
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    My own point of view is that this woman certainly believed she was raped, that consent wasn’t granted for all the activities. I don’t think it was just remorse.
    That’s hard to prove though.
    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I assume it's the treatment of rape victims in general and I assume they're striking when the iron is hot, i.e. while everyone is still discussing rape and consent.
    languagenerd wrote: »
    Some of the posts I've seen say they're showing solidarity with rape victims and/or protesting how the complainant was treated throughout this trial (the prolonged questioning, underwear shown to the court, no legal representation, some of the barristers' comments like "classic rape victim", "middle class girls wouldn't tolerate a rape", etc.)

    I'm really not too sure of what to make of all of it. One way or another that girls has been put through the wringer, as have the lads. It's an imperfect system but aside from having these things take place completely without any media coverage until such times things have been completed and there is a guilty verdict I'm not sure how things can be done much better.


  • #2000
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    garbo speaks wrote:
    They want a society whereby anyone accused of rape is automatically jailed without trial and due process. And when do they want it? NOW!

    Nobody sane wants that but sure, have that opinion if you think it makes you seem like the righteous one.


  • #2001
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    ricero wrote: »
    Wouldnt surprise me if she was looking for a bit of cash off the defendents.
    You clearly have absolutely no idea how a criminal justice system works then.


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  • #2002
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,285 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    That's what I would hope and I assume any rational thinking person would hope so too.

    Yes, it's probably a discussion that needs to be had. Society is changing apace and talking about things in purely legalistic terms is perhaps not helpful. Maybe a major debate about the issue of consent is called for.


  • #2003
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Strazdas wrote: »
    No evidence though that the woman started out with the intention of having group sex or that this was a regular occurence. She was on her own with Paddy Jackson when other individuals started arriving in the bedroom completely uninvited. Even if it wasn't rape, she may have felt somewhat pressurised or perhaps even very pressurised - at no point did she tell three men "I want to have sex with all of you".

    True, it had been Jackson she'd be chatting to and exchanging numbers with. The others arriving was just random.


  • #2004
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    Seems a lot of the current protesters would favour a system that convicts based on accusation.


  • #2005
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Again I agree with what you are saying except for the innocence part.

    You claim that innocence is presumed. Guilt needs to be proven.

    But then you say there was not enough evidence to prove guilt but stop short of saying they are innocent.

    If they are innocent until proven guilty, and have not been proven guilty. Then they are still innocent.

    That is a fact.

    Yes all 5 behaved irresponsibly. The woman for some reason called it rape. Yes they are playing with fire but right now its the 4 lads that are the victims of a lot of hate.

    No.
    The woman claims it was rape.. Not for some reason she claims it was rape...
    We did not prove she was not raped.
    The court could not prove that she was raped. There is a difference.

    They have not been proven innocent they are assumed innocent they simply have not been shown to be guilty.

    They might be victims of a lot of hate yes.

    Let's put it another way, if these four guys had evidence that this woman lied and conspired against them they could in turn take her to court....

    Then perhaps we could argue the "proved" their innocents.


  • #2006
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    That crowd on O Connell Street are an extremely dangerous bunch as is that Brid yoke speaking earlier.


    Mob mentality is extremely dangerous

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • #2007
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Sounds a bit like the "No to foregin games" guy in the Celtic top.

    I've lost the will to even debate with them.

    Like my only complaint seems to be the blame being sent towards Irish law. Maybe I'm being pedantic but come on. Why are people continuing to make this mistake. Our courts carry out these cases very differently, and even if people have problems with them, which there still is, this case has nothing to do with them.


  • #2008
    mayolady14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭mayolady14


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    In America there is a legal principle of reasonable resistance. I'm glad we dont have this here or in UK however we sort of do have it in that it becomes very difficult to prove rape unless there's reasonable resistance.

    Yes it's too late to change anything. I commented on the fact that it's unfortunate that any victim didn't resist because it's almost impossible to get a conviction otherwise.



    Agreed it was not proven that the woman in question was caught out in a lie. If it was she would be prosecuted for perjury.



    It's my understanding that consent for sex in Ireland and the UK operates under a standard of someone giving verbal or otherwise. Personally I think that's crap. Otherwise is too vague a word for defining something as serious as sexual consent.

    I also agree that we as a society have lost the meaning of the word consent.

    Some people act as if verbal or otherwise means she is in the same house as me so obviously she wants it.

    People act in a way that could be considered consent under a verbal or otherwise test feel ashamed and cry rape.

    It's crap it's vague and unfortunately that's the way it is. It needs to be looked at and defined in a way that the courts have a legal standard. Its a tragedy that people can feel they were raped and the perpetrator can feel she consented and that there's any sort of grey area. I believe that is what happened here. Jackson and Olding felt that they received otherwise consent and the woman involved felt she was being raped or decided after the fact that she didn't consent and it was rape.

    Personally I don't believe in otherwise consent for sexual activities except in a long term relationship where both parties know each other well enough to accurately judge an otherwise consent.


    I don’t quite agree that Jackson and olding were sure they weren’t raping her, but I appreciate your input, your ability to have a discussion and the respect shown. Have a great day


  • #2009
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Nermal wrote: »
    What law would that be, exactly?

    None apparently.
    It's ludicrous. If you don't like what's happening, you try to make it stop. You can claim afterwards that you were pressured or froze but that's never going to be provable, is it?

    I think it’s ludicrous that consent is assumed for anybody except the original partner.


  • #2010
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    No.
    The woman claims it was rape.. Not for some reason she claims it was rape...
    We did not prove she was not raped.
    The court could not prove that she was raped. There is a difference.

    They have not been proven innocent they are assumed innocent they simply have not been shown to be guilty.

    They might be victims of a lot of hate yes.

    Let's put it another way, if these four guys had evidence that this woman lied and conspired against them they could in turn take her to court....

    Then perhaps we could argue the "proved" their innocents.

    Why should they have to prove she lied (which would be very difficult)?

    They are not guilty therefore should be presumed innocent


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  • #2011
    SAMTALK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭SAMTALK


    ricero wrote: »
    Knew they would be found innocent as that girls story has serious flaws in it from beggining until end. Reckon she got embaressed and worried when that girl walked in the room and caught her in the act. Wouldnt surprise me if she was looking for a bit of cash off the defendents.

    The lads have been proved innocent, time for people to move on and let them get on with their lives.

    I'd imagine she could have found easier ways of trying to get money from them


This discussion has been closed.
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