Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

1…6162646667…316

Comments

  • #1892
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Hmmmm.

    With such a low conviction rate, I'm not so sure. Not even including the cases which don't make it to trial or go unreported.

    Wouldn't be too quick to be crowing about justice unless you believe that the vast, vast majority of women making these allegations are lying.

    Well a vast majority of women in here are lying by claiming all men are rapists so.......................


  • #1893
    meep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭meep


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Rape is a heinous crime and therefore it is right that the burden of proof is high. Why should we automatically assume someone is guilty just because it is rape? The presumption of innocence is such an integral part of our justice system. While I think there should be more sensitivity around reporting on cases like this (to protect the complainant and the accused) I would rather accept the flaws of a justice system than a mob culture where social media conviction and vigilante justice rule.

    Agree with this.

    We cannot assume guilt due to allegation.

    Several moons ago, I sat on a Jury in a rape trial. We acquited the accused for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that the accusers story simply didn't make logical sense.

    It was only afterwards that we found out that the rape accusation was made as part of a wider story and that it was likely a counter-accusation to another case in progress in which the roles of accuser and accused were reversed.

    How the case that I was part of made it to trial always puzzled me but thinking about it over the years, I realised that it was good that the mechanisms were there for the accuser to be listened to and to have their day in court.

    The entire experience positively imapacted my faith in the justce system. It also made me appreciate that only the Jury can be arbitrators of justice and questioning a jury decision based on court reports or less credible sources and/or world view shows a significant lack of respect.


  • #1894
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »
    Again you are wrong. Robbing the bank is a crime. A crime for which no one was convicted but a crime all the same.
    It's only a crime if the bank has been robbed. If I take €1m from the bank and court finds me not guilty, then the bank wasn't robbed. They have lost money, and I have gained €1m, but the bank has not been robbed.
    Boston's Gardner Museum - $500m worth of paintings were stolen. This is a crime. No one has been convicted. This is still a crime. You don not need a convicted person for a crime to have occurred.
    Missing the point spectacularly. Someone stole those paintings. In order for a crime to exist, you need a person to have committed the act.

    But if the person who committed the act is not guilty of a crime, then how can a crime exist?


  • #1895
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭C__MC


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Street protests planned today I heard on the news.

    It's quite obvious there are many out there who think this was a miscarriage of justice.

    On what basis? Any sane person who read the evidence, knew it was going 1 way.


  • #1896
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    irishrebe wrote: »
    And what's your point? Ireland has moved on hugely since the 70s, so we should just brush over the fact that a rape victim cannot get a legal abortion?
    Who's brushing over anything? You do realise that an upcoming referendum is before the Irish people to put this matter to a vote?
    We should just be happy everyone isn't still being raped by priests and sent to Magdalene laundries, so sure, what of it is you get raped and get pregnant, you should just get on with it and stop your old whingeing? Are you having a laugh?
    When someone is comparing Ireland to India and calling it a totalitarian patriarchal state I"m not the one having a laugh.  
    Did you actually read the posts directed at the women who says she was raped?
    I did. Most of them anyway. Someone claims something on Internet forum, assumes complete acceptance just because. Others ask questions about such automatic acceptance of her story and that's "victim blaming".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Advertisement
  • #1897
    thierry14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭thierry14


    Feel bad for the young woman

    Her gut of not reporting it was the right thing to do

    Waste of her time

    Having shared dressing rooms with privileged **** like those lads for years makes me feel even more sorry for her


  • #1898
    SAMTALK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭SAMTALK


    C__MC wrote: »
    I’m not buying the whole trauma/frozen thing myself. If the lads are continuously labelled liars and so on, the woman was no better.
    Here is a few reasons, She initially wasn’t sure how oldings penis got in her mouth then she states “I’m nearly sure it was forced.” She took olding to the point of ejaculation. She couldn’t account for DF popping her head in “claimed it slipped her mind”. She may have been frozen but yet still has no how to worry about a photo being taken and turned her head away. If she was really frozen and unable to look for help , how come she could shout “how many times does it take for a girl to say no”? She also went back to the house for her phone.

    Or maybe he managed it himself!! On this basis if a rapist ejacultes can we presume the "victim" was to blame for this :confused:


  • #1899
    mayolady14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭mayolady14


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Like any job or any people in life some are inept and some are arsh*les ,
    If you bring it to the Ombudsman they must look at the evidence and not dismiss it like the said Guard did,
    As I said Iv no idea what happened or what didn't , I'm not blaming the women here all I'm  saying is there is an avenue to go down if you feel like the Guard just brushed you off,
    Its a horrible crime, if someone commits it they should be brought to justice, 
    If a women first compliant is ignored by a guard they should 110% go to the Ombudsman


    If you’ve never been a survivor of sexual violence, I really think you should shut up telling me what I should have done in your eyes. You’ve no idea what is like to relive that, the anxiety you get from PTSD etc...


  • #1900
    UnknownSpecies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭UnknownSpecies


    optogirl wrote: »
    This sums up my frustration with this trial

    You can't even make your own points. Instead relying on a screenshot of one sided theories and details. Lots of which were dismissed as inconsistent or likely false.

    Posting that picture and saying it sums up your frustration sums up the twitter brigade to be honest. Instead of taking an objective view of the evidence or even just trusting the jury to, you would rather believe a conveniently compact screenshot with 'facts' that confirm the narrative you already want to believe.


  • #1901
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I pity rape victims who are intimidated about coming forward because of small minded people like you. Yours is the most useless retort to any comment I've ever said, why am I blind? Use your words.

    I pity actual rape victims whos claims are tarnished by mindless idiots who decide to make stuff up.

    Then there are the faux outraged feminazis who exaggerate claims and make sure that even claims that are proven wrong, are still believed.


  • Advertisement
  • #1902
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    yourdeadwright wrote:
    Like any job or any people in life some are inept and some are arsh*les , If you bring it to the Ombudsman they must look at the evidence and not dismiss it like the said Guard did, As I said Iv no idea what happened or what didn't , I'm not blaming the women here all I'm saying is there is an avenue to go down if you feel like the Guard just brushed you off, Its a horrible crime, if someone commits it they should be brought to justice, If a women first compliant is ignored by a guard they should 110% go to the Ombudsman

    My point is, a vulnerable woman builds up enough courage to go to the guards and is disbelieved, so it's harder to gather yourself and go the Ombudsman after that. Can you empathise with that? (That last sentence sounded bitchy but it's not meant to be, genuinely asking if you can understand why it would be even harder the second time round.)


  • #1903
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1904
    Maxpfizer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    irishrebe wrote: »
    But why is it, that it's just 'too bad' if a women gets raped and can't prove it (as in my example), but people are up in arms if a man is accused with no proof? You're essentially telling me justice wouldn't be done in my case, because I'd have no proof, so I'd have to suck it up, so essentially automatically believing the man who says he's innocent. Yet you're saying we shouldn't automatically believe the woman. It's not that I disagree with you - I don't believe the accused should be referred to as rapists when a court ruled otherwise - but do you see the issue here when it's one party's word against the other's? There's always going to be one loser.

    Well what would you want?

    Imagine there was a different way. You don't have to just get over it. You make and accusation and that's that. The guy does the prison time.

    It's good for you, right? You get justice and it seems fair from your perspective.

    What is the cost of your justice? How much should we be willing to pay for that kind of justice?

    Would you be willing to let an innocent man go to jail alongside the man in your case is it meant you got justice in your case?

    What would be the acceptability levels here? Anyone on the thread could answer this, I suppose.

    Is it worth sending 1 innocent man to jail to catch 10 rapists? 100? 1,000? More than that? Where do we draw the line?

    Would you sacrifice a male friend or relative or partner if it meant that a thousand actual rapists could be caught?

    The "I believe her" people have a blindspot, in my opinion. They do not consider for a moment that one day they, or someone close to them, could be the ones on the other side of the argument.

    It could be their brother or father begging to be believed, begging for a fair trial only to be told "no, I believe Her".



    Would you be outraged if a male relative being put in the situation outlined above? Or would you believe her?


  • #1905
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    thierry14 wrote: »
    Feel bad for the young woman

    Her gut of not reporting it was the right thing to do

    Waste of her time

    Having shared dressing rooms with privileged **** like those lads for years makes me feel even more sorry for her

    Having shared this thread with some of the witch hunters I know the feeling


  • #1906
    optogirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,040 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Well a vast majority of women in here are lying by claiming all men are rapists so.......................

    who is claiming all men are rapists? This nonsense argument - we are your mothers, your sisters, your daughters, your nieces, your cousins, your friends. We love you. Do you honestly think that the majority of women on here think that? Grow up & get the 'feminazi' chip off your shoulder.


  • #1907
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Mr.H wrote: »
    While that is fair to say. I have already posted about that. But that was about 100 pages ago (so about 10 mins ago) so you probably didnt see it.

    I mentioned that while its true to say there was insufficient evidence, we shouldnt say that because it leaves doubt. At the end of the day these guys stood on front of a jury of their peers. They were judged by the western world who had them plastered all over their papers with headlines calling the rapists. They have suffered career wise, finance wise and respect wise from their friends and family. They had to stand back and watch the world call them horrible things. They were not allowed to stand up and talk for themselves. They couldnt tell the world that they are being wrongfully accused. They after 9 weeks of stress have finally been told that they are not guilty. They have been told that despite their claims of innocence, there has been insufficient evidence to prove their guilt.

    They have no actual way of proving innocence in this case and people will always label them now. Their lives are effectively over.

    We need to stop acting like they got away with it due to evidence and actually say they are not guilty because the evidence suggests they didnt commit the crime.

    They are innocent and we should let them be.

    The same with this woman. I do believe that she looked back at the night and for some reason said she was raped. Now I hope and want to believe it wasnt done for any other reason than she genuinely believed it. But thats because I dont want to think of her as a liar.

    I am not saying they got away with anything but I am also not saying the woman in this cases is a liar.

    But you seem to want to reaffirm their their innocents but that is not how the legal systems works, it does not prove innocents, innocents is always assumed guilt needs to be proven.

    Yes their careers might be over their lives in tatters but equally if this is a case where she was raped but simply not enough evidence to convict then we also have a woman whose life is ruined and a life in tatters.

    I think ultimately this comes down to being responsible, these guys and this woman acted irresponsibly, you want to get drunk and essentially have a sex party then you are playing with fire!


  • #1908
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Uncharted wrote:
    You're blind to the fact that this case is closed. They are innocent. Deal with it. You're blind to other peoples opinions. You're blind to the reality that women have never had so much equality. You're blinded by hate. You're also boring.

    My post wasn't about the case. The case is closed and the correct verdict was reached, no reasonable grounds to believe they were guilty.

    The rest of your claims are unfounded. Except the boring one. That's your opinion, which you're entitled to and I wholly respect it.

    Want to deal with my original post about the guard and ombudsman thing? I understand if you don't, it always seemed like you misunderstood my point or weren't really interested in it, you just wanted to insult me. Almost as if you were blinded by hate?


  • #1909
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    The biggest issue is having to clear a "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle. Almost impossible where it's one person's word against another's ( or 4 others).

    If there was a third option of allowing a jury to convict on the balance of probabilities, with a lesser sentence associated with this conviction.

    Just spitballing here, not sure if such an approach would be fair, but something's very wrong with our current system.


  • #1910
    The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman


    seamus wrote: »
    It's only a crime if the bank has been robbed. If I take €1m from the bank and court finds me not guilty, then the bank wasn't robbed. They have lost money, and I have gained €1m, but the bank has not been robbed.
    Missing the point spectacularly. Someone stole those paintings. In order for a crime to exist, you need a person to have committed the act.

    But if the person who committed the act is not guilty of a crime, then how can a crime exist?

    No robbing the bank is a crime. Regardless of whether you are convicted or not.

    Not missing any point. Your logic is that you need a person to have "committed" the act. The paintings in boston were stolen. You can't tell me who stole them, so by your logic no crime exists.

    But you are obviously wrong as someone has stolen the paintings. A crime has occurred. You do not need a convicted individual for a crime to occur.


  • #1911
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    optogirl wrote: »
    who is claiming all men are rapists? This nonsense argument - we are your mothers, your sisters, your daughters, your nieces, your cousins, your friends. We love you. Do you honestly think that the majority of women on here think that? Grow up & get the 'feminazi' chip off your shoulder.

    Really so you didnt see the links from your wan on twitter saying
    "stop teaching your daughters to not be out at night. Start teaching your sons not to rape us"

    Thats probably not word for word but it is what was posted here

    You dont think there is a feminazi issue?

    4 men were found not guilty of rape yet a lot in here seem to think they are still rapists. In fact protests around the country (in a different country to the incident) have been set up to bring light to the fact they disagree with the outcome.

    So tell me again how I am the one with the chip. Please do tell me what I am allowed to say and not allowed to say


  • Advertisement
  • #1912
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Mr.H wrote:
    Well a vast majority of women in here are lying by claiming all men are rapists so.......................

    False


  • #1913
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    mayolady14 wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Like any job or any people in life some are inept and some are arsh*les ,
    If you bring it to the Ombudsman they must look at the evidence and not dismiss it like the said Guard did,
    As I said Iv no idea what happened or what didn't , I'm not blaming the women here all I'm  saying is there is an avenue to go down if you feel like the Guard just brushed you off,
    Its a horrible crime, if someone commits it they should be brought to justice, 
    If a women first compliant is ignored by a guard they should 110% go to the Ombudsman


    If you’ve never been a survivor of sexual violence, I really think you should shut up telling me what I should have done in your eyes. You’ve no idea what is like to relive that, the anxiety you get from PTSD etc...
    I'm not telling you what to do at all , that is your own choice,
    Iv literally said if you felt the guard didn't listen you can go to the Ombudsman ,iv clearly said its your choice weather you decide to or not  but the option is there for people who feel unfairly treated,


  • #1914
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    False

    The only thing false is the outrage here that these innocent men were set free.

    Move onto your next outrage millenial


  • #1915
    Uncharted
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Uncharted


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    My post wasn't about the case. The case is closed and the correct verdict was reached, no reasonable grounds to believe they were guilty.

    The rest of your claims are unfounded. Except the boring one. That's your opinion, which you're entitled to and I wholly respect it.

    Want to deal with my original post about the guard and ombudsman thing? I understand if you don't, it always seemed like you misunderstood my point or weren't really interested in it, you just wanted to insult me. Almost as if you were blinded by hate?

    Uurggh. All the best with your self loathing and faux outrage. I'm going for lunch.


  • #1916
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Wibbs wrote:
    I did. Most of them anyway. Someone claims something on Internet forum, assumes complete acceptance just because. Others ask questions about such automatic acceptance of her story and that's "victim blaming".

    Yeah, questions like 'a guard wouldn't do that', 'Why didn't you tell the Omvbudsman?' and 'Why would you tell a guard but not your parents, sounds suspicious?'

    I'm not saying something online has to be accepted as true but let's not kid ourselves that all the responses were helpful or smart.


  • #1917
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    L
    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The biggest issue is having to clear a "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle. Almost impossible where it's one person's word against another's ( or 4 others).

    If there was a third option of allowing a jury to convict on the balance of probabilities, with a lesser sentence associated with this conviction.

    Just spitballing here, not sure if such an approach would be fair, but something's very wrong with our current system.

    The complainant has the option of bringing a civil case to the courts for the stress and other suffering incurred from being raped. This case would be decided upon by a judge under the balance of probabilities and only monetary penalties could be exacted.

    When considering reaction to rape I hate the idea of a passive rape victim simply because you can't prove it. Fight and you will always have defensive wounds to show force. Not saying that it's only rape you fight but it's much easier to prove if you do.


  • #1918
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1919
    Maxpfizer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    optogirl wrote: »
    This sums up my frustration with this trial

    DZZEslJXkAECl5E.jpg

    I think you mean your frustration with the jury?

    If everything you've listed there is the entirety of the facts of the case then I would suggest that any and all frustration and anger should be directed at the 11 jurors who only took a few hours to decide the case.

    "theory on Twitter that..." REALLY?

    It's embarrassing at this point.

    From eejits protesting in Dublin about a court case taking place in the UK to dumbasses who don't seem to understand how and why the legal system works.

    I believe that the Jury took their responsibility seriously and reached a verdict based on what they heard in court.

    Are you saying that all 11 members of the Jury deliberately ignored evidence and let these men go free?


  • #1920
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    I am not saying they got away with anything but I am also not saying the woman in this cases is a liar.

    But you seem to want to reaffirm their their innocents but that is not how the legal systems works, it does not prove innocents, innocents is always assumed guilt needs to be proven.

    Yes their careers might be over their lives in tatters but equally if this is a case where she was raped but simply not enough evidence to convict then we also have a woman whose life is ruined and a life in tatters.

    I think ultimately this comes down to being responsible, these guys and this woman acted irresponsibly, you want to get drunk and essentially have a sex party then you are playing with fire!

    Again I agree with what you are saying except for the innocence part.

    You claim that innocence is presumed. Guilt needs to be proven.

    But then you say there was not enough evidence to prove guilt but stop short of saying they are innocent.

    If they are innocent until proven guilty, and have not been proven guilty. Then they are still innocent.

    That is a fact.

    Yes all 5 behaved irresponsibly. The woman for some reason called it rape. Yes they are playing with fire but right now its the 4 lads that are the victims of a lot of hate.


  • Advertisement
  • #1921
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Mr.H wrote:
    I pity actual rape victims whos claims are tarnished by mindless idiots who decide to make stuff up.

    We agree on something.

    Post #488, you never answered me? I feel you're not going to. No retort?


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement