Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

storker · 29-03-2018 01:18PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Wouldn't be too quick to be crowing about justice unless you believe that the vast, vast majority of women making these allegations are lying.

I'd say it's more a question of the nature of the crime and how difficult it can be to satisfy the required burden of proof.

mayolady14 · 29-03-2018 01:20PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Violence is violence. Crime is crime. Adrenaline does crazy **** to people. Freezing is a honest reaction. I'm sorry that you suffered.

I'm not telling anyone how to be victims.

I'm saying that evidence is needed to convict people and that in a case of word vs word reasonable doubt comes into play, the easiest way to produce additional evidence is that sexual consent was not present is defensive wounds form a struggle.

What did one witness say, that they just saw a consenual threesome. It's very hard to get evidence to convict someone for rape out of that. I don't know what happened that night in Belfast. I do know there was not enough evidence to convict anyone of rape.

If a rape did occur I am disappointed that there is not enough evidence to convict rapists.

If a rape did not occur I am glad that no one has to falsely face prison.

Fortunately or unfortunately a jury has unanimously decided to declare that the four men involved are not guilty.

In my mind if a jury says not guilty then we can't consider a rape to have occurred. In my mind therefore Paddy Jacson .Stuart Olding and the other individuals involved are only guilty of being little ****s and that is not a crime,

I take your point on board but you can understand the advice is too little to late for victims? We know we should’ve struggled we know we should’ve screamed but we couldn’t so what now? I think you’re coming from a good place but I don’t think the comments are nessecarily helpful.

I also agree that the jury had no choice but to come to the verdict they did, because yes, there was reasonable doubt. But I firmly believe these men either intiated or continued with sexual acts without explicit consent and that is rape. Unfortunately, it could not be proven to the required burden of proof.

I don’t think men should be locked up on one testimony, but I think we do need to look at how we try rape cases, and how victims are spoken about. Any comment section is full of young men (not always, but generally) seemingly delighted that this “bitch” was caught out in a lie (which of course is not proven). That scares me. We seem to have lost the meaning of consent. And when you try to have this conversation, men jump up and down about written consent. No, but just have the decency to ask if someone is enjoying something if they look uncomfortable!! Not only is that ensuring consent, it makes you better at sex.

I also think we need to get over this thought process that every man (especially sportsmen) is a pillar of the community and above the law.

seamus · 29-03-2018 01:21PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Your logic is that you need a person to have "committed" the act.
....
But you are obviously wrong as someone has stolen the paintings.

You're so close, just have a re-read of your post and it might click.

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem with that list, is that it is a list made up by an observer, who extracted and summarised part, and only part of the evidence. It is the jury who sat through weeks of all the evidence and made up their mind.

It was clearly written by someone who really wanted to make a fair and impartial summary but got too worked up after 8 or 10 points and just started making notes about why they believe the guys are guilty.
Most of that list isn't evidence of guilt, some of it isn't even relevant to the trial.

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 01:21PM

Isshelying wrote:

You mean a situation where she hasnt been raped??

No, a situation where she felt the sex was non consensual and attempted to get justice but didn't get the desired result.

Mr.H · 29-03-2018 01:23PM

Sidebaro wrote: »

It just seems that a physical and psychological trauma would be worse than just a psychological one?

Let's just say that counselling can undo the psychological trauma, what is your opinion on the rape victims that never seek help in that fashion?

Are they better off than somebody falsely accused? If so, how?

Ah ok I was fully sure I responded to this ages ago. I cant believe you still care about a response from (oh my god it was only yesterday!!!! jesus we all need to get lives).

in fact I did answer this question on the next page, I just didnt quote you post in it but you seem determined.

excuse the fact I have broken your post up into three as it was very difficult to read. I want to be as respectful as possible answering this ok so please try to take it in as neutral a way as possible as I am not trying to offend anyone.

The question was in relation to which is worse.
1) being raped
2) being falsely accused of rape

1) Being Raped
The act
being a victim of rape is a horrible thing. Some person talking control of you and using your body for their own sick satisfaction is unthinkable. This is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable.

Fault
Being a victim you did not chose this. The person responsible is a criminal. They set out to hurt you. They set out to take your power from you and leave you damaged.

What can be done
Your friends and family may be more protective for a while and treat you with kid gloves. But eventually you will hopefully be able to stand up and be stronger than ever before. Because you survived what some monster tried to do to you. You can of course get counselling which will go some bit to helping you deal with the trauma. The counselling plus time will help you be able to live with this cloud and you can still go on to have a happy life.

Justice
Of course there is also the possibility of justice. It is not severe enough in my eyes but there is some satisfaction if this monster can be made pay for what they did.

2) Being falsely accused of rape
The act
imagine this. You have sex with someone. You think it went great. They leave the next morning and you think should I txt them now or give it a couple of days. Then you hear that they have accused you of raping them. Your friends family and everyone hear about this and start asking what happened. You r boss and co workers start treating you differently. You eventually have to leave your job which you cant afford to do because you now have to get a solicitor.

Fault
Again you are a victim because you did not commit the crime. Instead a false accusation was put against you for what ever reason. Maybe you didnt call quick enough and they thought you used them? Maybe you were not good looking enough and they were embarrassed about being seen with you? The accuser has made you a criminal in everyones eyes and made everyone think they are the victim.

What can be done
Your friends and family may stand by you but they will think differently. People will start having doubts about you. Trust that was 100% wont be quiet 100% anymore. Relationships will break down. Some friends will stop being there for you. You will almost always end up losing your job. No amount of counselling is going to convince other people that you are telling the truth. No amount of time is going to erase this accusation from records. Your great grand kids are still going to be talking about this in 100 years time. Thats if you can even get any other person to believe you are not a rapist.

Justice
you can prove yourself not guilty. People will say its not the same as innocent but then again there is no way to prove innocence without proving the other person was lying. Then again how do you do that unless they confess? Even if that did happen how often do people get punished for false allegations? There was one woman recently who received 10 years in the UK for false allegations. That was unprecedented. The reality is false accusations are written off as a misunderstanding. So no justice will prevail for the victim of a false accusation.

Rape victims need counselling. Anyone who is the victim of a sexual assault of any nature needs to talk about it. Its the only way to regain control. Comparing them to victims of false accusations is nonsense.

I am not downplaying rape. I am saying that victims of false accusations are also victims of a sexual assault and they are victims that have no options for help.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 29-03-2018 01:24PM

seamus wrote: »

You're so close, just have a re-read of your post and it might click.

I suggest you take a law course in any of the college's available to you.

Mr.H · 29-03-2018 01:25PM

Sidebaro wrote: »

Take your own advice, move on from that. Deal with the questions put to you that aren't about that. Stop cherry picking what you want to answer. Post #488. About the 10th time I've alerted you to it. Always ignore me and pick out the idiots posts for easy replies so you can appear clever and righteous

I've now answered your question twice. I am aware you may not agree but are you at least satisfied that I gave you an answer?

it was post 487 by the way. Also jesus it wasnt even that good a question

steddyeddy · 29-03-2018 01:26PM

This quote from Olding's barrister has been doing the round today:

"Why didn't she scream - the house was occupied. There were a lot of middle-class girls downstairs - they weren't going to tolerate a rape or anything like that."

Is every lawyer in Ireland drawn from the same bunch of snobby b%stards? Despicable comment in more ways than one.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 29-03-2018 01:27PM

What’s the story with them deleting texts? Why no obstruction of justice convictions?

ricero · 29-03-2018 01:27PM

Knew they would be found innocent as that girls story has serious flaws in it from beggining until end. Reckon she got embaressed and worried when that girl walked in the room and caught her in the act. Wouldnt surprise me if she was looking for a bit of cash off the defendents.

The lads have been proved innocent, time for people to move on and let them get on with their lives.

Ginger83 · 29-03-2018 01:27PM

Isshelying wrote: »

You mean a situation where she hasnt been raped??

Not guilty does not mean they are innocent, just look at what Harvey Weinstein got away with.

29-03-2018 01:29PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

There’s a protest at The Spire organised by Ruth Coppinger. I heard one girl being interviewed from there, f*ck me, these clichéd, purple haired, snarling feminists do actually exist here

Just ignore them :cool: These "people before profit" losers are nothing but failed politicians. Let them keep talking their absolute sh!te, not as if they are ever going to be anywhere near having actual power :pac:

Laneyh · 29-03-2018 01:29PM

jesus it would be worth having a pinned post at this stage stating what a not guilty verdict does and does not mean

xtal191 · 29-03-2018 01:29PM

That protest at the spire is embarrassing

seamus · 29-03-2018 01:29PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It actually is strange they're not reporting it. Maybe there's a concern about defamation of the four guys.

There are a few hundred people in Cork and Dublin combined having a protest, you can see it on Twitter. Not huge, but sizeable rallies to be fair.

Pac1Man · 29-03-2018 01:29PM

Ginger83 wrote: »

Not guilty does not mean they are innocent, just look at what Harvey Weinstein got away with.

In the eyes of the law they are innocent, not just 'not guilty'.

retro:electro · 29-03-2018 01:29PM

Ginger83 wrote: »

Not guilty does not mean they are innocent, just look at what Harvey Weinstein got away with.

I must have missed the part where Harvey Weinstein had a trial?

Will I Am Not · 29-03-2018 01:30PM

The women being interviewed at that march

I really hope they are just trying to pick out the mentalists for the craic.

Mr.H · 29-03-2018 01:30PM

Ginger83 wrote: »

Not guilty does not mean they are innocent, just look at what Harvey Weinstein got away with.

Weinstein got away with a lot of things he was innocent for.

Offering someone a role in a movie for a BJ is not a crime. She did it and regretted it and now its sexual assault?? Please.

He hasnt had to deal with the actual sexual assault stuff he did yet.

These guys did and the evidence proved they did not commit a crime

29-03-2018 01:30PM

Also people who are not respecting the courts judgement absolutely disgust me, these lads are found innocent and all the feminists are still talking about them as if they are guilty........ I hope these lads sue the pants off any feminist on twitter who wrongly accuse them of something that they have been found innocent of.

garbo speaks · 29-03-2018 01:31PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

I really hope they are just trying to pick out the mentalists for the craic.

Feminist=Mentalist.

wexie · 29-03-2018 01:31PM

seamus wrote: »

There are a few hundred people in Cork and Dublin combined having a protest, you can see it on Twitter. Not huge, but sizeable rallies to be fair.

What is it they are actually protesting against though?

The outcome of the trial?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 29-03-2018 01:31PM

seamus wrote: »

It actually is strange they're not reporting it. Maybe there's a concern about defamation of the four guys.

There are a few hundred people in Cork and Dublin combined having a protest, you can see it on Twitter. Not huge, but sizeable rallies to be fair.

There were some comments on twitter that were defamatory - some from people with verified ticks.

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 01:32PM

Mr.H wrote:

I've now answered your question twice. I am aware you may not agree but are you at least satisfied that I gave you an answer?

I couldn't see a reply to it on the next 3 pages but I'll deal with your above reply anyway - I'm not satisfied because you didn't reply to the question. What about the cases of rape victims who DON'T report, why is being falsely accused a worse thing to happen you in this instance? You say that being falsely accused is worse than being raped but maybe you mean it's worse than being raped and getting proper help. I'd still disagree with that by the way.

Max Prophet · 29-03-2018 01:33PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The women being interviewed at that march
I really hope they are just trying to pick out the mentalists for the craic.

Always funny to see a few soy boy virtue signalling virginal lads hanging around looking for a ride at this protests.

Strazdas · 29-03-2018 01:33PM

Isshelying wrote: »

The scary thing is any man here could find themselves in the same position as the 4 men here. Even when they are found innocent, they're still guilty. It's little wonder men are so bothered about this.

Would the #ibelieveher crowd be as dismissive of due process if it was their son, brother or father being persecuted even after acquittal?

As regards the way they treated the woman that night, it has to be noted that many women enjoy being spitroasted and used in a submissive manner. You only need to look at sites like FetLife to see how widespread it is. There's nothing degrading in it when its safe, sane and consensual but try telling that to the ardent feminists who believe no woman could enjoy it.

Im not saying that was the case that night but on the surface it appears to be. She regretted her actions afterwards and tried to put on a show of being forced into it rather than admitting the slightly embarassing truth that she was an active and willing participant. When she realised in the cold sober light of day that other people knew what she had done, she initiated reptutation damage control.

No evidence though that the woman started out with the intention of having group sex or that this was a regular occurence. She was on her own with Paddy Jackson when other individuals started arriving in the bedroom completely uninvited. Even if it wasn't rape, she may have felt somewhat pressurised or perhaps even very pressurised - at no point did she tell three men "I want to have sex with all of you".

Franz Von Peppercorn · 29-03-2018 01:34PM

wexie wrote: »

What is it they are actually protesting against though?

The outcome of the trial?

Rape culture in Ireland although this was the U.K.

That’s stupid for sure. There was a lot of that kinda nonsense on twitter last night. The shamed to be Irish crew.

My own point of view is that this woman certainly believed she was raped, that consent wasn’t granted for all the activities. I don’t think it was just remorse.

That’s hard to prove though.

Sidebaro · 29-03-2018 01:36PM

wexie wrote:

What is it they are actually protesting against though?

I assume it's the treatment of rape victims in general and I assume they're striking when the iron is hot, i.e. while everyone is still discussing rape and consent.

wexie wrote:

The outcome of the trial?

If it's this then I disagree with the protest.

languagenerd · 29-03-2018 01:37PM

wexie wrote: »

What is it they are actually protesting against though?

The outcome of the trial?

Some of the posts I've seen say they're showing solidarity with rape victims and/or protesting how the complainant was treated throughout this trial (the prolonged questioning, underwear shown to the court, no legal representation, some of the barristers' comments like "classic rape victim", "middle class girls wouldn't tolerate a rape", etc.)

Others probably are protesting the verdict, which is entirely pointless.

Ginger83 · 29-03-2018 01:37PM

Pac1Man wrote: »

In the eyes of the law they are innocent, not just 'not guilty'.

Its 1 jury's opinion, sure look at the Amanda Knox case.

Those 4 were always going to be found not guilty.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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