Great rifle and will serve you well.

If memory serves the 45gr JHP UMC are flat shooting. I don't subscribe to the 1" high at 100 rule as frankly it doesn't work like people think it will for most guns. Depending on the caliber, bullet and rifle 1" high at hundred will have one of three results:

1. Will still be low at 200 yards
2. Will be almost spot on at 200 yards
3. Will be high at 200 yards

That means you won't actually have a proper zero and i prefer to find the actual drops of the rifle and either set the scope for each distance or hold over, depending on the shot.

With the Howa, 1:12 twist, the 45gr UMCs shoot flat and group well. In stronger winds they can be effected, but not so much to miss a shot out to 200 yards.

Other rounds that work well include the 55gr and the 53gr Hornady v-max. A little more expensive than the UMC at about €30 per box of 20. The Fiocchi 50gr V-max also work well but steer clear of the Fiocchi 50gr hollow point. A disaster of a round.

A laser of a round, if you can find them, are the Hornady 40gr (Fiocchi also do a 40gr but i've never seen them for sale here). The Hornady are seriously flat with little adjustment from 100 to 200 yards. I'm talking a click or two, if that. Problem is i haven't seen any for sale here in some time and when they do come into a dealer they sell out quick.

Best part of all this is you get loads of trigger time to test each round. One bit of advice, don't go over 55gr because, and i assume the Ruger is 1:12 too, anything over 55 won't work too well if at all. I tried 64gr and 75 gr in the Howa and both groups were dreadful with one round that i was sure looked slightly keyhole.

fiestaman wrote: »

I havnt mine long, a Tikka T3x 1:8 twist. Using 50gr vmax fiocchi a 50yrd zero ...............

You'd think it wouldn't work, the 50gr in a fast 1:8 twist, but other than real world results you're getting it works on paper too.

Weight of a bullet is misleading. We all talk about twist rate and suitable weight of bullet, when if fact it's bearing surface length of the bullet that is key. Every calibre is fixed. Meaning a 40 gr bullet and 75 gr bullet in 223 have the same diameter. To make it heavier they make it longer. This is when twist rate comes into play. The longer a bullet the more bearing surface that engages the lands and grooves.




However if i were to talk to someone about suitable bullet for twist rate in terms of bearing surface i'd be talking in thousandths of an inch. For example (and excuse the numbers they are completely made up because i don't have the actual numbers) a 40 gr would not be a 40 gr but a 0.4721 bullet compared to the 0.5512 bullet (75 gr).

It's easier to talk in weights.


The reason i say weight is not ideal is because sometimes this weight to bearing surface is not always as predictable as you'd think. I'll discuss this in 308 as i know them. My rifle is 1:10 twist. It's suitable for bullets of 168 - 185 gr. They have longer bearing surfaces than 123 - 155 gr bullets so work better in the faster twist rate.

However the Lapua Scenar 155 gr is a long bullet. So long in fact that it's bearing surface length is the same as the 175 gr Sierra, and close to the 180 gr bullet. Because of this the bearing surface is longer, and the "lighter" bullet acts more like a "heavy" bullet. This means that although it's a 155 gr bullet it works, quite well, in a 1:10 twist.

It's for this reason that some rifles will shoot heavy or light bullets that seem to contradict the twist rate:bullet weight ratio.

ninja7848 wrote: »

How long should I leave the rifle to cool down after shooting a group.lets say I’m shooting groups of 3.

Depends on the barrel. A heavier barrel will stand up to more shots better than a thin barrel and a stainless barrel is better than a blued barrel (nothing to do with the finish but about the composition of the barrel).

TBH i wouldn't even concern yourself with how hot, but more importantly is it the same temp as the last group. You want consistency when testing ammo so if you fire the first group in a cold barrel you need to let the barrel cool down completely before testing the next group so the barrel conditions are exactly the same. It's why i always fire a few rounds to warm the barrel before testing. Saves me waiting ages for the barrel to cool completely before i can try the next batch.

Same goes for dirty or clean barrel. If i'm testing the first batch in a spotless clean barrel i'll clean between groups to make sure the other batches get the same. If the barrel is already fouled i'll keep track of the amount of shots fired and then clean, not thoroughly, and do the next batches in the same type of fouling. Its not as exact as i'd like but it works.

Also i shoot 5 shot groups. Three shots just doesn't give me the info i need and is too few shots to get a proper group.

My m77 is 1,12 twist and has 20” barrel if I’m measuring the right way. Should I expect good grouping out to 200 250 yards. Love all the info by the way.

As long as the round has used all the propellant within the length of the barrel then yes, you should get the "full effect" of each round.

Another aspect to consider is the amount of revolutions. You say the barrel is 20" and a 1:12. That means, excluding the chamber, the bullet has about 18" of barrel. So divide 12 into 18 and you get 1.5 That means the bullet will only do a maximum of one and half (1.5) rotations before it exits the barrel. You have to know or hope that is enough to stabilize the bullet.

If it were, say, 1:9 then over the 18" the bullet would do two full revolutions. So on and so forth for all the various twist rates.

Here is a comparison between a 55gr and a 75gr in a rifle with the same twist as yours. See how the 55gr is marked as stable, but the 75 gr is not. This is down to bullet length, speed, twist rate, etc.

yubabill1 wrote: »

Fiesta man, your 200yd group is fine IMHO.

As i said i was not trying to insult and i was not attacking fiestaman's shooting ability. I merely commented on his 200 yard group compared to the 100 yard. With a tight group at 100 and a wide one at 200 there is an issue so no point in saying everything is fine. Not being nasty, truly.

You were off a pod, in the field.

Yeah, i've heard this before and i still wonder why people think this is an excuse or a drawback.

0.5 MOA groups are really for the bench.

Again, no they're not. I have regularly shot 0.5 moa from a bipod with both the bolt action and the semi auto.

Also, and this is why i said to Fiestaman that there is no insult intended and went on to discuss ammo choice with him, if you look at his 100 yard group and give it a rough measurement based on bullet hole (as a guide) then the group measures sub 0.5moa. It opens up at 200 yards meaning the ammo choice is not right for the rifle.

I'm not knocking what Cass has been saying

Yes ye are, go wan outta dat.

, it's all true,

Emmmm, sure, why not.

but it's really hard to consistently shoot 0.5MOA in the field and not strictly necessary for hunting.

For hunting, not necessary at all as it's always a one shot scenario, but its nice to know your rifle is able.

Without a bench and rest or whatever you're having at the range, it will wreck your head.

Still have to disagree, it's more than capable. Just do what you do when on the range.

A very good shot (now he could shoot 0.5MOA in the field) told me a long time ago "Find a bullet your rifle likes and stick with it"

True.

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Target shooting, different kettle of fish I suppose.

From my own point of view i'm not saying fox shooting or hunting in general should be treated the same as target shooting because, as you said, they are two different disciplines.

What i'm saying is if your rifle is set up correctly and the ammo is not performing on targets (on a range of course) then what faith can you have it'll hit accurately and kill cleanly at the distances.

Fiestaman's grouping at 100 is perfect but the bullet is not suiting past 100 yards. This tells me his techique is perfectly fine so any deviation must be down to the rifle/bullet. So as long as he shoots mostly at 100 he is fine, but if he has to take a fox at 200 or if a target presents itself further out then with the spread at 200 yards being over three times that at 100 what will it be past 200?

As Tikkamark said there is nothing wrong with knowing if the bullet will do its job after the shooter has done his part, in fact i'd encourage lads to get to know their set up.

The shorter the distance the less the spread even with a poor bullet combo, but if they stablise or perform better at distance then you can be confident that'll you'll hit at 100 yards even if its only holding 1moa, but also at 200 and beyond if it can hold that 1 moa or less.

Not a case of comparing for comparison sake, but my bolt action will hold 1/2" to 3/4" at 100, 1" at 200 and 2.25" at 300 yards. With the same bullet. So while i may rarely take shots past 200 yards i know i can do safely and accurately meaning a hit for me and a quick/humane kill for the animal.

I'm probably not getting whats in my head out properly but i hope its making sense.

Its why i keep saying i'm not sh*ting on Fiestaman for the sake of doing so but to highlight a potential or actual problem and how i think he should act to address it.

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

I get what you're saying Cass my point is that for me the % of shots at each distance would be a major consideration. If say 85% + of the shots are at 100 or less then the cheaper ammo is grand.

Yup, and i agree. As above:

Cass wrote:

Fiestaman's grouping at 100 is perfect but the bullet is not suiting past 100 yards. This tells me his techique is perfectly fine so any deviation must be down to the rifle/bullet. So as long as he shoots mostly at 100 he is fine....................

If he shoots, like you said, mostly within this distance then his grouping and shooting is fine. If he goes past this then he might want to consider another round.

If 200 yards shots present themselves then educated decisions about the % probability of an ethical kill can be judged on a shot to shot basis.

That is what all this started from. my comment on the bullet's performance at 200. Given the 100 yard performance i think the rifle is not liking the ammo, but only showing it at distance. In which case why not try another round tha will do well at 100 and just as well at 200+ instead of excellent at 100 and average to poor at 200+.

yubabill1 wrote: »

In the field, I'm resting on a fencepost or something similar and I have learned to live with that, it's what I like and it's a skill of its own to master.

You're going on like the Midlands offer a massage with a happy ending while you shoot. It's a concrete floor and a target board at the other end. I haven't always been a member of the range and was shooting for years before i joined so i had to do the field zero to make sure i was safe, and hitting my mark.

I didn't use fence posts, and neither did fiestaman if you look at his pictures. I, and he, used a bipod and in a prone position. Identical to how its done at the Midlands. BTW if you shoot from a bench at all you'll soon realise that the shooting position form a bench and from the prone position are not the same and can lead to an imperfect zero if you zero at one, but shoot from the other.

If you're saying the guy's bullet choice is behind the 200 yd group, then I agree with you.

That is all i've said from the first post after his.

What I'm saying is that it's very hard to translate from the bench to the field, even with a pod and go a bit easy on the guy.

Again its not the bench. Yes there are tables at a range, but more and more lads, myself included, prefer to shoot from the prone position to replicate field conditions for the reason i gave above. Shoot as you would in the field and practice as such. It is the same when i practice for a Bullseye comp. I don't use back bags, bipods, etc. because i cannot use them in the comp so why become dependent on them to find i don't have that when shooting.

For me - and only for me, in this instance - I'm sure I could spend a lot of time and money and get a setup and the skill to achieve 0.5 MOA in the field, but I'm not going to, as I don't need that kind of precision, which would require more than a casual investment (that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to be able to achieve it).

Fiestaman shot 0.5moa at 100 yards. It's in his picture, the first one. So he is capable and the rifle is capable. However if he shot just over 0.5 or shot 0.5 with a single stray round i'd say nothing except well done. He didn't. The shots are widely spread, in excess of 1moa (closer to 1.5) and taking into account his performance at 100 the first thing i'd consider, from personal experience, is the ammo.

Whether you think I could shoot 0.5 MOA it is a matter for yourself.

There is the thing, it's not. How you shoot and what you think of it is completely your thing. If however you put it on an internet forum for discussion you seek input, opinions, praise or criticism.

These are guys out in the field and a 2-3" group at 200 is good enough to kill a fox shot in the boiler house at that range with that ammo. Go any further, though and things start to get dodgy.

There is the difference. I rarely accept "good enough". If i know the rifle, and by default myself, i'm using can do much better as fiestaman has done at 100 then how you know you're kit is on the ball and any misses or poor placement is the shooters fault. Fiestaman has highlighted a potential issue with his ammo past 100 yards and can now address that. If he brings that group down to below 1moa at 200 yards (2 inch group) then he can be more confident in his shooting. However if the shooter is using poor ammo, getting poor groupings, but continuing to use the ammo responsible then how confident would he be each time he goes to pull the trigger knowing it may injure or miss the animal?

Personally, I don't shoot much beyond 150yds and I'm zeroed for 55gr at 100 because I have found the vast majority of opportunities present on the 75-100 yd range. That's probably just as well, because if everything was presenting at 175-200 yds+, I would have to change my setup and start practicing a lot more.

My shots can go from 40 yards to over 350 so i don't have the luxury of not bothering with anything past 100.

I recognise my own limitations and I'm comfortable to pass the 300 yd shots, for me, it's just a matter of stalking a bit closer and there's a satisfaction in that part of the thing, too.

Fox shooting for me is not like deer stalking. I don't stalk the fox for sport, i eliminate a pest that is costing the land owner money. Its more job like for me, and my method of payment for getting the land permission in the first place.

We've kinda, and i'm at fault for this, gone off the original topic so apologies to the OP, but all i said was the group at 200, for me, would need work. If you or anyone else if happy at a near 3" group at 200 yards then more power to you and enjoy your shooting. I'm not here and have no interest in trying to convince you to change. For me it's not acceptable in the sense that i would want to know why my rifle is so good at 100 and then falls down at 200. If the trend continues at 300 it could be over 3moa or 9 inches which is the difference between a clean kill and a miss.

I would hope fiestaman is reading this and thinking maybe i [me] might have a point and consider trying different ammo, but if not and he says that prick [me] can feck off and stick his testing up his arse than that is fine too. Again i'm not the fox shooting police and no interest in becoming so.