Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Van.Bosch · 09-03-2018 09:42PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Go ahead wouldn't have to buy any bus though.

These are all paid for by us tax payer fools and letting a multi national in to make even more profit.

They were awarded the contract through an open tender, so not buying the buses isn’t really relevant. DB don’t buy their buses?

punisher5112 · 09-03-2018 09:48PM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

They were awarded the contract through an open tender, so not buying the buses isn’t really relevant. DB don’t buy their buses?

dB is semi state which it should stay as.

Luas is operated by a transdev/veolia.
A private operator which also is multi national.

We don't need to give away contracts to multi national companies.

dB use to purchase but it wasn't any different really as subsidisation was how it works and always will.

Go ahead will cost more to do the exact same service.
They aren't going to be any better but the nta will push the 35% increase in service as a big thing like oh look how much better they are.

Why does everything have to be sold of and letting things be taken over.

Van.Bosch · 09-03-2018 09:54PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

dB is semi state which it should stay as.

Luas is operated by a transdev/veolia.
A private operator which also is multi national.

We don't need to give away contracts to multi national companies.

dB use to purchase but it wasn't any different really as subsidisation was how it works and always will.

Go ahead will cost more to do the exact same service.
They aren't going to be any better but the nta will push the 35% increase in service as a big thing like oh look how much better they are.

Why does everything have to be sold of and letting things be taken over.

I’ll give you a couple of examples as to why:

1) DARTs stopping at Clontarf road and then 200m down thevtracks to change drivers. The driver change should be at Clontarf road station to minimise passenger disruption.

2) DART drivers refusing to train new drivers.

3) DB drivers refusing to operate rear doors at stops where it is safe to do so.

punisher5112 · 09-03-2018 10:02PM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I’ll give you a couple of examples as to why:

1) DARTs stopping at Clontarf road and then 200m down thevtracks to change drivers. The driver change should be at Clontarf road station to minimise passenger disruption.

2) DART drivers refusing to train new drivers.

3) DB drivers refusing to operate rear doors at stops where it is safe to do so.

No drivers are refusing to open rear doors but some may well be using their discretion.

If people stopped suing everyone for anything then this may help.

On the dart about change of driver that may well be an operation issue and safer or at points.

Stephen15 · 09-03-2018 10:15PM

To be fair most DB drivers are now are using the middle doors at most stops or at least on routes I have observed.

punisher5112 · 09-03-2018 10:23PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair most DB drivers are now are using the middle doors at most stops or at least on routes I have observed.

I will once safe to do so.

There are many stops not suitable and actually dangerous to do so.

I've had many where the CCTV monitor isn't working including brand new vehicle's.

The thing I never get is no matter how long they are left open someone nearly always walks into as closing.

end of the road · 09-03-2018 10:39PM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I’ll give you a couple of examples as to why:

1) DARTs stopping at Clontarf road and then 200m down thevtracks to change drivers. The driver change should be at Clontarf road station to minimise passenger disruption.

2) DART drivers refusing to train new drivers.

3) DB drivers refusing to operate rear doors at stops where it is safe to do so.

those are not valid reasons, as privatization/tendering would not solve those issues. the private company would still have to talk with the unions in relation to the first 2, and all stops would have to be checked to insure they are fully safe, + enforcement would have to take place, for the third to be solved. if the drivers aren't opening the doors, it's because it's not safe. you may disagree otherwise but the driver drives the bus and they will know when they are required to do certain things and when not to do so, so their word, and the word of the company/NTA is final until the instruction and rules are changed.

Yer Da sells Avon · 10-03-2018 02:10AM

punisher5112 wrote: »

The thing I never get is no matter how long they are left open someone nearly always walks into as closing.

I know there are already far too many annoying beeps and automated announcements on public transport, but is there anything at all to be said for a "stand clear, door closing" announcement on buses?

StreetLight · 10-03-2018 08:01AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I know there are already far too many annoying beeps and automated announcements on public transport, but is there anything at all to be said for a "stand clear, door closing" announcement on buses?

As long as it's not the annoying and nonsensical one Bus Eireann had on theirs for years:
"Stand Clear - Luggage Doors Operaaayyyshe".

dashcamdanny · 10-03-2018 12:00PM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I’ll give you a couple of examples as to why:

1) DARTs stopping at Clontarf road and then 200m down thevtracks to change drivers. The driver change should be at Clontarf road station to minimise passenger disruption.

2) DART drivers refusing to train new drivers.

3) DB drivers refusing to operate rear doors at stops where it is safe to do so.

more middle door BS.

So when we open the door and some kid or elderly person gets their front teeth knocked out because they walked out into a drain or a ditch, im guessing you will be back shouting that the driver should not have opened the door. :rolleyes:

Do you think Go Ahead will open the door every time?

Stephen15 · 10-03-2018 01:30PM

Hopefully after bus connects all stop issues regarding middle doors are sorted out meaning that they can be used at all stops.

10-03-2018 02:44PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Go ahead wouldn't have to buy any bus though.

These are all paid for by us tax payer fools and letting a multi national in to make even more profit.

What's wrong with a business making profit?

The businesses that provides you with food, medicines, cars, fuel, clothing, etc make profits also.

bebeman · 16-03-2018 11:22PM

salonfire wrote: »

What's wrong with a business making profit?

The businesses that provides you with food, medicines, cars, fuel, clothing, etc make profits also.

Private operator- Profits go to share holders.
Public operator- Profits go to Government, means less money from TAX PAYERS is required to operate the routes that loose money.

amcalester · 16-03-2018 11:28PM

bebeman wrote: »

Private operator- Profits go to share holders.
Public operator- Profits go to Government, means less money from TAX PAYERS is required to operate the routes that loose money.

Problem with that is that the public operators, hamstrung by unions and other vested interests, don’t turn a profit and require further investment paid for by the tax payer whereas private operators don’t get any extra funding.

bebeman · 16-03-2018 11:29PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I know there are already far too many annoying beeps and automated announcements on public transport, but is there anything at all to be said for a "stand clear, door closing" announcement on buses?

Many people in own world with headphones on listing to music.
Fact is many dont scan Leap card correctly on validator and keep on walking as they are wearing headphones, can't hear the validator beeping , no point in calling them back won't hear you, I'm not getting out of cab to go upstair to get them.
Serious money being lost.

punisher5112 · 16-03-2018 11:29PM

amcalester wrote: »

Problem with that is that the public operators, hamstrung by unions and other vested interests, don’t turn a profit and require further investment paid for by the tax payer whereas private operators don’t get any extra funding.

It's going to cost exactly the same but actually will be more.

It's a shambles.

bebeman · 16-03-2018 11:32PM

amcalester wrote: »

Problem with that is that the public operators, hamstrung by unions and other vested interests, don’t turn a profit and require further investment paid for by the tax payer whereas private operators don’t get any extra funding.

You would be wrong there kiddo!
DB turn profit.
Government have cut money given to DB by the same amount as the profit made.
Wont be cutting the money Go Ahead receive no matter how much profit, but watch them cut DB money, savings for Tax Payer

amcalester · 16-03-2018 11:35PM

bebeman wrote: »

You would be wrong there kiddo!
DB turn profit.
Government have cut money given to DB by the same amount as the profit made.
Wont be cutting the money Go Ahead receive no matter how much profit, but watch them cut DB money, savings for Tax Payer

Turn a profit or spend less than the subvention?

devnull · 16-03-2018 11:38PM

bebeman wrote: »

Private operator- Profits go to share holders.
Public operator- Profits go to Government, means less money from TAX PAYERS is required to operate the routes that loose money.

The way I see it is neither model is ideal.

Private operators only make a profit if they are efficient which then does go to the shareholders as you rightly say, but they have to compete with other firms which generally makes them more lean.

Public operators normally have an issue in that if there is any profit to be had the funds normally end up going to the staff or there will be a strike and normally are not facing such levels of competition as the private sector does.

The unions have been telling us for years though that Dublin Bus should not be expected to make a profit.

devnull · 16-03-2018 11:41PM

bebeman wrote: »

Wont be cutting the money Go Ahead receive no matter how much profit, but watch them cut DB money.

There's a massive difference.

The DB Contract was let under a completely different type of contract that was a direct award when the Go-Ahead was awarded following competitive tendering and as such different rules apply.

The Bus Eireann Waterford contract is an identical style contract to the Go-Ahead Dublin one, and if DB had retained the Dublin routes they'd have been on exactly the same contract as Go-Ahead will be on rather than the contract DB are on now.

Stephen15 · 16-03-2018 11:46PM

devnull wrote: »

The Bus Eireann Waterford contract is an identical style contract to the Go-Ahead Dublin one, and if DB had retained the Dublin routes they'd have been on exactly the same contract as Go-Ahead will be on rather than the contract DB are on now.

But DB will on the same type of contract for the remaining 90% from 2019

end of the road · 17-03-2018 12:03AM

amcalester wrote: »

Problem with that is that the public operators, hamstrung by unions and other vested interests, don’t turn a profit and require further investment paid for by the tax payer whereas private operators don’t get any extra funding.

private operators have unions. in fact go ahead, and any of the other majors that may come in will have the exact same unions as dublin bus.
the private operators operating tendered routes, will also get the "extra funding" that the public operator supposibly gets, in the form of capital investment, in the form of busses to operate the PSO routes, just like the public operator. that isn't going to come from fares income, it will come from the tax payer, ergo the public operator gets no more extra funding then the private operator, unless either of them put in a higher cost bid and win more on the quality aspect. the profit the private operator will make does not go back into services but to the shareholders, the NTA getting the fares income only and paying a fixed fee out of that. so the public operator not making a profit isn't relevant, given both will be getting the exact same funding in the form of the money to operate services, and capital investment in the form of the vehicles to operate the routes. ergo this is a waste of everyone's time.

amcalester · 17-03-2018 12:07AM

end of the road wrote: »

private operators have unions. in fact go ahead, and any of the other majors that may come in will have the exact same unions as dublin bus.
the private operators operating tendered routes, will also get the "extra funding" that the public operator supposibly gets, in the form of capital investment, in the form of busses to operate the PSO routes, just like the public operator. that isn't going to come from fares income, it will come from the tax payer, ergo the public operator gets no more extra funding then the private operator, unless either of them put in a higher cost bid and win more on the quality aspect. the profit the private operator will make does not go back into services but to the shareholders, the NTA getting the fares income only and paying a fixed fee out of that. so the public operator not making a profit isn't relevant, given both will be getting the exact same funding in the form of the money to operate services, and capital investment in the form of the vehicles to operate the routes. ergo this is a waste of everyone's time.

You’re conflating lots of ideas here so it’s hard to follow your post, but one thing is clear is that you don’t understand tendering.

Infini · 17-03-2018 12:14AM

The only thing I have to ask is why are these contracts being awarded to an English company who will be out of the EU by next year? Wont Brexit have an effect on these if England increasingly looks like its gonna crash off the edge?

end of the road · 17-03-2018 12:21AM

amcalester wrote: »

You’re conflating lots of ideas here so it’s hard to follow your post, but one thing is clear is that you don’t understand tendering.

i very much understand tendering.
the reality is once contracts are signed, both operators get the funding to operate the routes, and they get vehicles to operate the routes. the NTA takes the fares income and pays the operators out of that along with the subsidies. whether the operator makes a profit or not isn't relevant given profit from the operator won't go back into the operation.

devnull · 17-03-2018 12:35AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

But DB will on the same type of contract for the remaining 90% from 2019

Not necessarily will they be the same - there are different requirements under EU Law for direct award contracts to those that are competitively tendered.

Infini wrote: »

The only thing I have to ask is why are these contracts being awarded to an English company who will be out of the EU by next year? Wont Brexit have an effect on these if England increasingly looks like its gonna crash off the edge?

Because quite frankly it's not really right to discriminate based on nationality if you ask me.

amcalester · 17-03-2018 12:40AM

end of the road wrote: »

i very much understand tendering.
the reality is once contracts are signed, both operators get the funding to operate the routes, and they get vehicles to operate the routes. the NTA takes the fares income and pays the operators out of that along with the subsidies. whether the operator makes a profit or not isn't relevant given profit from the operator won't go back into the operation.

This just further shows that you don’t understand tendering.

Kermit.de.frog · 17-03-2018 12:43AM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

1) DARTs stopping at Clontarf road and then 200m down thevtracks to change drivers. The driver change should be at Clontarf road station to minimise passenger disruption.

I could never understand this nonsense and it did use to rile me when I used to take the DART.

bebeman · 17-03-2018 12:53AM

devnull wrote: »

Public operators normally have an issue in that if there is any profit to be had the funds normally end up going to the staff or there will be a strike and normally are not facing such levels of competition as the private sector does.

The unions have been telling us for years though that Dublin Bus should not be expected to make a profit.

Pulling these numbers out of the air as i don't have the exact ones at hand.
Government gave DB 20 million in 2014
DB made zero profit
Government gave DB 20 million in 2015
As passengers numbers increased DB made 1 million profit
Government gave DB 19 million in 2016
DB made zero profit
Government gave DB 19 million in 2017
As passengers numbers increased DB made 1 million profit
Government gave DB 18 million in 2018

See what happens, when DB make profit, Government cut funding,Tax payer saves money, this won't happen with Go Ahead, the money stays the same each year and profits go to share holders.
Do you think the Unions are wrong to criticise this?

GM228 · 17-03-2018 12:55AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

But DB will on the same type of contract for the remaining 90% from 2019

No they will get direct award contracts again in 2019.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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