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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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Comments

  • #9062
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Will I Am Not wrote: »
    It seems to me that it’s totally dependent on whether someone plans on seeing it through or not.

    My wife miscarried at 9 weeks. She has a tattoo with the date on her leg, she releases a balloon on that date every year. Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

    Someone who unwillingly falls pregnant may obviously think it to be just a clump of cells but then would they say the same when they get their first scan pic on a baby they planned for?
    The ‘it’s just a clump of cells’ argument is arbitrary.

    then leave it to your wife or the woman who became 'arbitrarily pregnant' to decide


  • #9063
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Will I Am Not wrote: »
    Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

    A few pages back I was explaining to a rather irate and emotional poster that that is in fact what we DO do quite often when treating women who have miscarried.

    With that user I was discussing "Swanson's Caring Theory" and the "Meaning of Miscarriage Model", and the many randomized control studies evaluating the differences between people who evaluate the miscarriage as "losing a baby" and those that evaluate it is "losing a pregnancy".

    A lot of people build up a narrative of "baby" during a pregnancy. After all, as even Leo one of our countries leaders pointed out "We tend to ask what the name of the baby might be not the name of the fetus". We are a narrative driven species and people can get invested in that narrative as your wife clearly did/has/is.

    But when a woman's grief at miscarriage is debilitating or high, we very much do work to remove those narratives and essentially tell her "it was just a clump of cells". We do not do it so crassly or directly, but iteratively and with more empathy. But that is basically what we are doing.

    But when it comes to the debate on whether we should allow abortion, we are not longer talking about the narrative each individual might hold. We are talking about the fetus as a general concept, and asking if there is any reason at the level of social morality and law, that we should hold moral and ethical concern for such a fetus. And thus far the answer seems to be a clear and consistent "no".


  • #9064
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Edward M wrote: »
    No guarantee the 12 week legislation will pass a dail vote according to the indo, the numbers aren't stacking up, so its down to SF it looks like.
    Who'd ever have thought that?
    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/uncertainty-over-whether-12week-abortion-legislation-will-pass-dil-vote-as-top-tds-refuse-to-disclose-their-views-36694547.html

    S03E05-Yq91c675-subtitled.jpg

    You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?


  • #9065
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    HandsomeBob wrote: »
    My concern would be such factors wouldn't be considered.

    Brexit is an absolutely huge decision for millions of people. The fact that the vote was so tight hasn't forced another vote.

    They dont have a referendum culture in uk like we do so not comparable.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #9066
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    S03E05-Yq91c675-subtitled.jpg

    You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?

    I thought it was a repeal referendum?


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  • #9067
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Edward M wrote: »
    I thought it was a repeal referendum?

    Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.


  • #9068
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.

    That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?


  • #9069
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Edward M wrote: »
    if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

    You know how people say "That's a big if." Well the one in your sentence is like the smallest 'if' in the world...


  • #9070
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Edward M wrote: »
    That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

    but the 8th will still be repealed.


  • #9071
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    but the 8th will still be repealed.

    Well, let's see.


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  • #9072
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Edward M wrote: »
    Well, let's see.

    If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.


  • #9073
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Is that a proposition from Wittgenstein?

    And no, he didn't play for Bayern Munich. oh, the never ending fun provided by leftist imbeciles. Worth the entry fee.
    Mod note: Bonniedog, don't post in this thread again.

    Buford T. Justice


  • #9074
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Edward M wrote: »
    That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?
    That's right. And they'll go back and propose something else.

    The POLDPA will continue to apply even after the 8th is repealed. So immediately there will be functionally no change to Ireland's abortion laws or position.

    But that's not really the primary focus here. Even if the Dail were to (say) approve abortion for fatal abnormalities, but shoot down a 12-week limit, that would only be possible because the 8th amendment has been repealed.

    The goal is repealing the 8th because changing the law is child's play compared to changing the constitution.


  • #9075
    Oldtree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,109 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    applehunter wrote: »
    I believe life starts at conception..

    Is conception to you a fertilised egg or an implanted fertilised egg? The reason I was asking is that the morning after pill is already freely available here in Ireland and can be taken up to 5 days after sex. From what I understand it prevents pregnancy of a fertilised egg. Is this an abortion to you?

    I am unsure though of the specific end point of the prevention, ie if the map can halt a fertilised egg that is implanted in the womb or halt a fertilised egg before implantation.


  • #9076
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.

    Where did I disagree or say otherwise?


  • #9077
    goulders
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭goulders


    After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
    After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

    I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

    Would like to see what others think ??

    (hope this ok with MODS)


  • #9078
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Edward M wrote: »
    if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

    If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

    And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

    We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.


  • #9079
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    goulders wrote: »
    After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
    After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

    I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

    Would like to see what others think ??

    (hope this ok with MODS)

    I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?


  • #9080
    goulders
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭goulders


    January wrote: »
    I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?

    Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.


  • #9081
    Oldtree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,109 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    goulders wrote: »
    Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.

    I don't think it is appropriate as they are under the age for voting for good reasons imo. How far would you take it, to a ten year old as the same rationale could apply.

    It's all well and good for the family to discuss and debate and in that context for gran and grandad to arrive at a voting conclusion that way, but no one should give away their vote that was so hard fought to gain.

    The very notion is anti democratic as I see it or just gran and grandad afraid to vote as they see fit.


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  • #9082
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    January wrote: »
    It's possible they have, their version of the alternatives view though, not the actual alternative view.

    But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
    Horses for courses


  • #9083
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
    Horses for courses

    That's true but I've also tried to explain to her that some people don't want to change the way things are because they believe a baby is a baby from the very start. I also don't take them on marches (she has asked to come) and only talk about it when asked a question on it.


  • #9084
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

    And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

    We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.

    It will depend on the constituency breakdown perhaps, the largest population centres might we pass it but the rural ones not maybe, you could end up with a situation where there are more TDs afraid for their seats because of their location and the way the vote went there who might be afraid to back the 12 week proposal.
    The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do.
    A quandry could arise then, perhaps.


  • #9085
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #9086
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign


  • #9087
    retro:electro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    applehunter wrote: »
    I believe life starts at conception.

    That’s fine. If those are your beliefs that’s your prerogative and you are entitled to live your life by your principles.

    I don’t think that though. And so why should I live my life arrested by a complete strangers principles?
    Repealing will ensure we all have a choice. You don’t have to do what you don’t want to but the ideology you support restricts many women whose principles don’t align with yours.

    I doubt you actually give those women and their bodies much thought though apart from pontificating on a forum.


  • #9088
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Edward M wrote: »
    The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do..

    But again - what exactly are these TDs to do? If they vote down the 12 week legislation, what will they put in its place?

    If nothing, if they just say let's keep the PLDPA, defying a national referendum for change, i think their seats will be in worse jeopardy.


  • #9089
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    applehunter wrote: »
    I believe life starts at conception.

    When do you think the right to life should begin? Because it's not presently at conception.


  • #9090
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    david75 wrote: »
    My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

    That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.


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  • #9091
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.

    That’s weird. It’s posted on a plc page. I didn’t catch that
    Thanks


This discussion has been closed.
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