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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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[Deleted User]

Will I Am Not wrote: »

It seems to me that it’s totally dependent on whether someone plans on seeing it through or not.

My wife miscarried at 9 weeks. She has a tattoo with the date on her leg, she releases a balloon on that date every year. Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

Someone who unwillingly falls pregnant may obviously think it to be just a clump of cells but then would they say the same when they get their first scan pic on a baby they planned for?
The ‘it’s just a clump of cells’ argument is arbitrary.

then leave it to your wife or the woman who became 'arbitrarily pregnant' to decide

nozzferrahhtoo

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

A few pages back I was explaining to a rather irate and emotional poster that that is in fact what we DO do quite often when treating women who have miscarried.

With that user I was discussing "Swanson's Caring Theory" and the "Meaning of Miscarriage Model", and the many randomized control studies evaluating the differences between people who evaluate the miscarriage as "losing a baby" and those that evaluate it is "losing a pregnancy".

A lot of people build up a narrative of "baby" during a pregnancy. After all, as even Leo one of our countries leaders pointed out "We tend to ask what the name of the baby might be not the name of the fetus". We are a narrative driven species and people can get invested in that narrative as your wife clearly did/has/is.

But when a woman's grief at miscarriage is debilitating or high, we very much do work to remove those narratives and essentially tell her "it was just a clump of cells". We do not do it so crassly or directly, but iteratively and with more empathy. But that is basically what we are doing.

But when it comes to the debate on whether we should allow abortion, we are not longer talking about the narrative each individual might hold. We are talking about the fetus as a general concept, and asking if there is any reason at the level of social morality and law, that we should hold moral and ethical concern for such a fetus. And thus far the answer seems to be a clear and consistent "no".

Loafing Oaf

Edward M wrote: »

No guarantee the 12 week legislation will pass a dail vote according to the indo, the numbers aren't stacking up, so its down to SF it looks like.
Who'd ever have thought that?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/uncertainty-over-whether-12week-abortion-legislation-will-pass-dil-vote-as-top-tds-refuse-to-disclose-their-views-36694547.html

You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?

Annasopra

HandsomeBob wrote: »

My concern would be such factors wouldn't be considered.

Brexit is an absolutely huge decision for millions of people. The fact that the vote was so tight hasn't forced another vote.

They dont have a referendum culture in uk like we do so not comparable.

Edward M

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?

I thought it was a repeal referendum?

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

I thought it was a repeal referendum?

Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

Loafing Oaf

Edward M wrote: »

if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

You know how people say "That's a big if." Well the one in your sentence is like the smallest 'if' in the world...

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

but the 8th will still be repealed.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but the 8th will still be repealed.

Well, let's see.

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

Well, let's see.

If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bonniedog wrote: »

Is that a proposition from Wittgenstein?

And no, he didn't play for Bayern Munich. oh, the never ending fun provided by leftist imbeciles. Worth the entry fee.

Mod note: Bonniedog, don't post in this thread again.

Buford T. Justice

seamus

Edward M wrote: »

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

That's right. And they'll go back and propose something else.

The POLDPA will continue to apply even after the 8th is repealed. So immediately there will be functionally no change to Ireland's abortion laws or position.

But that's not really the primary focus here. Even if the Dail were to (say) approve abortion for fatal abnormalities, but shoot down a 12-week limit, that would only be possible because the 8th amendment has been repealed.

The goal is repealing the 8th because changing the law is child's play compared to changing the constitution.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception..

Is conception to you a fertilised egg or an implanted fertilised egg? The reason I was asking is that the morning after pill is already freely available here in Ireland and can be taken up to 5 days after sex. From what I understand it prevents pregnancy of a fertilised egg. Is this an abortion to you?

I am unsure though of the specific end point of the prevention, ie if the map can halt a fertilised egg that is implanted in the womb or halt a fertilised egg before implantation.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.

Where did I disagree or say otherwise?

goulders

After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

Would like to see what others think ??

(hope this ok with MODS)

Zubeneschamali

Edward M wrote: »

if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.

January

goulders wrote: »

After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

Would like to see what others think ??

(hope this ok with MODS)

I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?

goulders

January wrote: »

I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?

Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.

Oldtree

goulders wrote: »

Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.

I don't think it is appropriate as they are under the age for voting for good reasons imo. How far would you take it, to a ten year old as the same rationale could apply.

It's all well and good for the family to discuss and debate and in that context for gran and grandad to arrive at a voting conclusion that way, but no one should give away their vote that was so hard fought to gain.

The very notion is anti democratic as I see it or just gran and grandad afraid to vote as they see fit.

splinter65

January wrote: »

It's possible they have, their version of the alternatives view though, not the actual alternative view.

But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
Horses for courses

January

splinter65 wrote: »

But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
Horses for courses

That's true but I've also tried to explain to her that some people don't want to change the way things are because they believe a baby is a baby from the very start. I also don't take them on marches (she has asked to come) and only talk about it when asked a question on it.

Edward M

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.

It will depend on the constituency breakdown perhaps, the largest population centres might we pass it but the rural ones not maybe, you could end up with a situation where there are more TDs afraid for their seats because of their location and the way the vote went there who might be afraid to back the 12 week proposal.
The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do.
A quandry could arise then, perhaps.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

david75

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

retro:electro

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception.

That’s fine. If those are your beliefs that’s your prerogative and you are entitled to live your life by your principles.

I don’t think that though. And so why should I live my life arrested by a complete strangers principles?
Repealing will ensure we all have a choice. You don’t have to do what you don’t want to but the ideology you support restricts many women whose principles don’t align with yours.

I doubt you actually give those women and their bodies much thought though apart from pontificating on a forum.

Zubeneschamali

Edward M wrote: »

The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do..

But again - what exactly are these TDs to do? If they vote down the 12 week legislation, what will they put in its place?

If nothing, if they just say let's keep the PLDPA, defying a national referendum for change, i think their seats will be in worse jeopardy.

NuMarvel

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception.

When do you think the right to life should begin? Because it's not presently at conception.

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.

david75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.

That’s weird. It’s posted on a plc page. I didn’t catch that
Thanks