Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

school closures

Options
1356

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I don't know of a precedent but then again maybe someone here does. It is in a circular.
    On a side note the public are easily wound up but teachers putting up on Facebook "yay day off"etc etc just gives certain sections ammunition against the profession.

    The eejits going "Yay day off" might not be so happy if they're made come in at Easter! :mad:

    I don't know of a precedent either and I come from a family of teachers.

    So to me it's a bit like possession being nine tenths of the law as in teachers are not technically on holidays during this time but have actually always been.

    So the breaking of that should raise blue murder rather than teachers going "fine boss" "whatever you want boss." I really can't understand how people can't see that if the future sees teachers being brought in at Easter /Feb, this will definitely mark the beginning of the end of our holidays as we know and value them with red weather alerts so common. We can't even really blame the employer as they have given us ways around it.

    And people should remember that the month of June is technically not holidays either!


  • Options
    #63
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Sky Wrong Fighter wrote: »
    I really don't think so tbh. And after a previous closure due to burst pipes it was the parents association and parent nominees on the BOM who argued most strongly against opening during midterm or cancelling tours to make up time.

    Okay, fair enough. I really shouldn't generalise based on the experience I have where I teach.


  • Options
    #64
    Aineoil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Whether we have to make days us or not I don't really care. After 31 years of teaching I don't care what parents say, I just nod sagely. I am a very patient person.

    I just want to get out when I can do something different for myself and others. I'm looking at doing a course in the counselling of children.


  • Options
    #65
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    acequion wrote: »

    Like myself, mirrorwall, you're a regular poster here and I normally have a lot of respect for your views. But the mind boggles how you and other teachers constantly accept the unacceptable from the employer. I take your point about the 30 days thing but you must be very well aware that holidays, call them school closures or whatever, are about all that has not been attacked in recent years.

    We differ substantially on this issue. I do not consider this to be an unreasonable request considering the amount of holidays we get and I feel the time is long past to fight it since the circular has been in place for some time now. I’ll bow out of this thread at this stage.


  • Options
    #66
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    This is absolutely absurd. We were emailedtoday an told that we need to keep setting hw online to avoid this problem. I have no issue at all doing this via moodle. I use it anyway. There is no WAY teachers should accept yo make up time over hols. Our conditions have deteriorated so significantly recently. Genuinely if this were to happen I'm out. Its becoming impossible to do the job in the current climate. I actually happen to love the job and give plenty of my free time voluntarily to various school activities.
    People it's time to wake up an accept no more.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Folks, don’t worry about the general public. They listen with the intent to respond, not understand our issues. When one of them says to me “ah 3 weeks off in the summer” I reply “shur isn’t it the best time of the year to get them off”.


  • Options
    #68
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    janes1234 wrote: »
    This is absolutely absurd. We were emailedtoday an told that we need to keep setting hw online to avoid this problem. I have no issue at all doing this via moodle. I use it anyway. There is no WAY teachers should accept yo make up time over hols. Our conditions have deteriorated so significantly recently. Genuinely if this were to happen I'm out. Its becoming impossible to do the job in the current climate. I actually happen to love the job and give plenty of my free time voluntarily to various school activities.
    People it's time to wake up an accept no more.

    Whew! Thank god there is somebody as outraged as I am.I'm really worried about how apathetic people have become. Are we so trodden upon at this stage that we actually accept being the only public servants who have to make up snow days!


  • Options
    #69
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    We differ substantially on this issue. I do not consider this to be an unreasonable request considering the amount of holidays we get and I feel the time is long past to fight it since the circular has been in place for some time now. I’ll bow out of this thread at this stage.

    Those holidays were always part of the job. They go with the job. It's not a bonus,it's not an extra so stop making it seem like we should be grateful or have something to pay back because we don't.


  • Options
    #70
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    The idea of having to make up these days is ridiculous in my opinion...my reasoning- many kids in the exam years will take plenty of time off so called study days between now and the end of the school year anyway. If they just came to school when the school was open they would have plenty of class contact. Its always the students who moan most about school closures/absent teachers that seem to leave us earliest in May !!


  • Options
    #71
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,423 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    It's the same parents who give out about things on liveline or Facebook with rants yet their kids hate school, don't engage and doss


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,152 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    The same ones who will have them back late from Madge-orka or wherever after Easter/Summer/Halloween.
    Put on your 'listening to class 206/attending an inservice' face and agree with everything they say.


  • Options
    #73
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    acequion wrote: »
    Those holidays were always part of the job. They go with the job. It's not a bonus,it's not an extra so stop making it seem like we should be grateful or have something to pay back because we don't.

    This type of post is exactly why I unfollowed this forum for a significant amount of time and will now do so again. I have enough anger to be dealing with in my own personal life

    Whether you and I disagree or not, whether you like it or not, the fact is that my contract as a teacher in an ETB states 30 days holiday a year. I knew that signing it 8 years ago and I signed it. So yes the additional holidays are a bonus. Yes it is an extra. You may not like it, I may not like it, but that is what my employment contract says.

    I’m a TUI rep. I’ve been active on this board for a long long time under multiple user names. I have fought and continue to fight inequality and multiple different problems that I acknowledge we have in teaching and which like many above will shorten my teaching career. I’m already planning for that eventuality

    But alienating and fighting and getting angry with each other because we disagree is not helpful. And my God have we seen that in the last few years within and between unions, never mind at a school level. In my opinion (and this is not a fact) If this issue was to be fought it should have been fought a long time ago. But we had, and still have bigger battles to have than a couple of snow days that may arise once in 30 years at Easter or midterm.

    The circular already protects us in that all other reasonable procedures are to be done before closure at Easter. I do expect in my school that summer exams will be shortened.

    And there I leave it. Enjoy the snow days. And enjoy the holiday at Easter. Goodnight


  • Options
    #74
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,153 ✭✭✭✭km79


    All counties now covered by red weather advisory .......


  • Options
    #75
    John0000
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭John0000


    I had a Student who went on holidays just before the Mocks and misses at least one day a week nearly go into meltdown when the Geography Teachers in my School pointed out we would probably be closed for three days with the weather charts they were looking at. Wanted to know when the teachers were making up this lost time, it wasn't fair on him been a 6th Year! At the end of class, I called him back and I looked at my Teachers Journal and calmly pointed out he had missed 11 days since Christmas and obviously he wasn't trying to catch up since he hadn't passed any tests since Christmas or his Mock exam and when was he going make up the 11 days he missed. He started stammering Oh Oh Oh am well Ok am am Ok Sir I was just saying! I have no problem helping Students and if a student who tries in my class regardless of ability wants my help I will give it and will make sure they are prepared for June. I think my students know I am there to help.


  • Options
    #76
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,153 ✭✭✭✭km79


    All schools closed .......


  • Options
    #77
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/snow-shutdown-closed-schools-may-have-to-make-up-the-days-at-easter-or-another-time-36653023.html
    SCHOOLS forced to close by the severe weather conditions may have to make up the days later in the school year.

    It could affect the Easter holidays, or any mini-breaks that a school had planned to take in coming months.

    Why is the Department hell-bent on punishing teachers and pupils for something that is beyond their control?

    If teachers are disgruntled about missing out on vacations they had booked for the Easter break because of having to make-up for lost days then why don't the teachers' unions try calling the Department's bluff on the risk of money being docked from salaries if days are not made up for?

    Surely, all that matters is that the curriculum is completed by the end of the school year.


  • Options
    #78
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    This type of post is exactly why I unfollowed this forum for a significant amount of time and will now do so again. I have enough anger to be dealing with in my own personal life

    Whether you and I disagree or not, whether you like it or not, the fact is that my contract as a teacher in an ETB states 30 days holiday a year. I knew that signing it 8 years ago and I signed it. So yes the additional holidays are a bonus. Yes it is an extra. You may not like it, I may not like it, but that is what my employment contract says.

    I’m a TUI rep. I’ve been active on this board for a long long time under multiple user names. I have fought and continue to fight inequality and multiple different problems that I acknowledge we have in teaching and which like many above will shorten my teaching career. I’m already planning for that eventuality

    But alienating and fighting and getting angry with each other because we disagree is not helpful. And my God have we seen that in the last few years within and between unions, never mind at a school level. In my opinion (and this is not a fact) If this issue was to be fought it should have been fought a long time ago. But we had, and still have bigger battles to have than a couple of snow days that may arise once in 30 years at Easter or midterm.

    The circular already protects us in that all other reasonable procedures are to be done before closure at Easter. I do expect in my school that summer exams will be shortened.

    And there I leave it. Enjoy the snow days. And enjoy the holiday at Easter. Goodnight

    No need for the tone. In fact I am the one who feels that I'm being shouted at
    because you disagree with my views. I'm not angry with you,personally, but I am very angry at the constant worsening of working conditions and I'll challenge anybody who states that getting teachers to work during a period they've never before had to work, is not further deterioration. Especially now when things have got so bad that we have an unprecedented recruitment problem.

    Yes of course I'll agree to disagree but I totally do not accept your contention that our holidays are an extra and a bonus! In fact I've been teaching in Ireland for the past 25 years and the first I've heard about this 30 days is tonight on this thread! I have no recollection of seeing anything like that in my contract. I am voluntary secondary, but I imagine the conditions are the same.

    Howsoever, our holidays and yes, I consider school closures holidays,are sacrosanct and basically the only good condition we have left and as an ASTI rep I will fight for that.

    You,too enjoy your holidays and the snow days!


  • Options
    #79
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/snow-shutdown-closed-schools-may-have-to-make-up-the-days-at-easter-or-another-time-36653023.html



    Why is the Department hell-bent on punishing teachers and pupils for something that is beyond their control?

    If teachers are disgruntled about missing out on vacations they had booked for the Easter break because of having to make-up for lost days then why don't the teachers' unions try calling the Department's bluff on the risk of money being docked from salaries if days are not made up for?

    Surely, all that matters is that the curriculum is completed by the end of the school year.

    I totally agree. And while the closure only heaps more pressure on teachers to get the stuff done,teachers have always done a very good job of doing just that. It is indeed punitive.

    And unions may indeed need to step up on this one. So we'll just have to watch how this pans out. I do know for a fact that quite of number of teachers and families in my area have booked holidays for that first week and I doubt anyone will cancel when payments have been made. So interesting times ahead.


  • Options
    #80
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    Anyone know if the Minister of Education himself and all his staff (and in fact all Departments and all staff) are working today and tomorrow?

    If the Minister is in fact working, I wonder how he got to work? (not by Dublin Bus at any rate)

    I wonder the same about his staff?

    If any of his staff are absent today (you never know some may have to travel long distances) is there a circular outlining how they are required to make up those days during their holiday time?

    Will he?


  • Options
    #81
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Why is everyone getting so exercised about a circular that has been in existance for years? Is any school opening over Easter? As far as I'm aware they aren't so why get so annoyed about something that is unlikely to be enforced in the first place? And if there is an atttempt to enforce it the loudest dissenting voices are likely to be parents and students.

    Get exercised about it if it is an issue, God knows we have plenty to complain about in the teaching profession these days without adding to our own stress and mental load by stressing about what is, at the moment, a non-issue.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/snow-shutdown-closed-schools-may-have-to-make-up-the-days-at-easter-or-another-time-36653023.html



    Why is the Department hell-bent on punishing teachers and pupils for something that is beyond their control?

    If teachers are disgruntled about missing out on vacations they had booked for the Easter break because of having to make-up for lost days then why don't the teachers' unions try calling the Department's bluff on the risk of money being docked from salaries if days are not made up for?

    Surely, all that matters is that the curriculum is completed by the end of the school year.


    I think it is important to read the article and check what the sources are. When you do that you realise that all it is is the journalist in question whipping out the relevant circular and using it to apparently give weight to absolute speculation. The article has, in actual fact. zero credibility. When the Minister, rather than a random journalist, says it you may begin to take it seriously.

    I would say in reality that there is zero chance of the Dept of Ed calling on extra days to be done over Easter especially at such short notice when dates for projects, orals etc. as well as personal arrangements during the holidays already decided. And especially when the call was made because of a red alert and schools were not left with the choice for two of the days.

    I certainly know that I'd hardly have half my own classes coming in over Easter if this happened. I have several times over the years brought LC students in over Easter and never had I more than half of them.


  • Options
    #83
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    I think it is important to read the article and check what the sources are. When you do that you realise that all it is is the journalist in question whipping out the relevant circular and using it to apparently give weight to absolute speculation. The article has, in actual fact. zero credibility. When the Minister, rather than a random journalist, says it you may begin to take it seriously.

    I would say in reality that there is zero chance of the Dept of Ed calling on extra days to be done over Easter especially at such short notice when dates for projects, orals etc. as well as personal arrangements during the holidays already decided. And especially when the call was made because of a red alert and schools were not left with the choice for two of the days.

    I certainly know that I'd hardly have half my own classes coming in over Easter if this happened. I have several times over the years brought LC students in over Easter and never had I more than half of them.

    How many days did they come in for and for how long each day? Were there other personnel in the school then? Were the BOM aware of it?

    If any accident happened a student during that time (a fall in yard as a result of horseplaying around, something going wrong in a Lab etc etc) would your position be the same as if it happened during school term time?

    Some parents might be quick to pick up on that.

    I don't know the answer to this and that is why I am asking as your work ethic is to be admired as is your commitment to your students.


  • Options
    #84
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    I don't think any teacher should ever dream of bringing students into school and giving them extra free tuition during holidays. It sets a precedent,there's absolutely no thanks for it and it often makes fellow teachers in that subject department look bad if they're not offering something similar.


  • Options
    #85
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    icebergiceberg wrote: »

    1) How many days did they come in for and for how long each day?

    2) Were there other personnel in the school then?

    3) Were the BOM aware of it?

    4) If any accident happened a student during that time (a fall in yard as a result of horseplaying around, something going wrong in a Lab etc etc) would your position be the same as if it happened during school term time?

    Some parents might be quick to pick up on that.

    5) I don't know the answer to this and that is why I am asking as your work ethic is to be admired as is your commitment to your students.

    1) From recollection I'd say the most I ever did was two days. I did two last year anyway. I can't imagine I'd ever want to do more than that.

    2) The DP was definitely there last year but whenever I enquired about getting access to the school in the past it was never recommended that it was necessary for other personnel to be there.

    Come to think of it I never recall having to deal with alarms etc. in the school so there must always have been someone there for some reason or other.

    3) The Principal was aware of it (otherwise I could not get access to the school or find out if it was open) and to me the Principal is the BOM. (For example I cannot imagine the Principal took a BOM vote at 7 o'clock Wednesday morning when school closure was decided)

    But did I address a BOM meeting or write to them in advance? No.

    4) Given that there was no objection from school management I presume it would be the same. Our school is used every day/evening and throughout the summer by outsiders too so we must have fairly solid insurance.

    Anyway, parents always had the option of keeping their child at home if they were concerned about their safety. It was never compulsory.

    5) Genuinely it was never about my work-ethic (which I'd consider no better than any other teacher) or my commitment to my students (likewise!). It was about catching up on work I'd like to have covered better prior to that. And also the knowledge that Easter usually came directly ahead of Oral exams and the students were always likely to benefit significantly from an extra class at that stage. Needless to say a large number would not show and I'd get students from other classes who'd get wind of it showing up too (which I never minded).

    But bringing students in over Easter is one of those things that in terms of optics might be considered impressive but often it's the teacher that doesn't need to bring them in for extra work is more effective. I'm not altogether sure it was ever reflected in superior results in my classes though maybe it made them better than they might otherwise have been.


  • Options
    #86
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    acequion wrote: »
    I don't think any teacher should ever dream of bringing students into school and giving them extra free tuition during holidays. It sets a precedent,there's absolutely no thanks for it and it often makes fellow teachers in that subject department look bad if they're not offering something similar.

    Even though I have done this several times in the past I don't disagree with you in principle at all. Certainly there is no thanks and there is the unfair optics of the person in there doing it looking as if they are more hard-working than everyone else. It reminds me of a DP who was leaving our school and gave a valedictory speech which included recognising the "number of cars that would still be there a few hours after school" which of course included people who were playing sport in the school or chatting with their friends rather than going home to rented accommodation, while those with family commitments had to do this "extra work" at home with no optical recognition for that, instead looking as if they were just early darters.


  • Options
    #87
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    acequion wrote: »
    I don't think any teacher should ever dream of bringing students into school and giving them extra free tuition during holidays. It sets a precedent,there's absolutely no thanks for it and it often makes fellow teachers in that subject department look bad if they're not offering something similar.

    I worked with a teacher, a gifted teacher indeed he was, who held extra classes in his home for extra tuition for students from the school he worked in.

    This was about thirty plus years go. I am pretty sure it was voluntary. He was a good natured and caring man. The students were thankful I know because they gave him a gift at the end. Strange how not a eye lid was batted. Not a question raised. It just happened. And it was a regular, annual thing towards the exams.

    Now? In 2018? Well!

    Regarding giving extra help to students at holiday time in school, well this could be problematic however well intentioned. There are issues, some of which which you have mentioned above but there are also boring, mundane things like insurance.

    I work in a tough school. If some of my students agreed to come in during Easter for extra classes and a fight broke out resulting in serious injury, I am not sure about liability. I don't need the worry that may bring.

    There may be other problematic situations but I am not aware of them as it is not something I experience.


  • Options
    #88
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    RealJohn wrote: »
    It’s yet another area in which teachers get it worse than the average. If any other place of business closes due to the snow, the staff aren’t expected to give up holidays to make the time up.

    That's exactly what has happened in my workplace. Many businesses have allocated the time for staff as holidays, it's not just teachers.


  • Options
    #89
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    Even though I have done this several times in the past I don't disagree with you in principle at all. Certainly there is no thanks and there is the unfair optics of the person in there doing it looking as if they are more hard-working than everyone else. It reminds me of a DP who was leaving our school and gave a valedictory speech which included recognising the "number of cars that would still be there a few hours after school" which of course included people who were playing sport in the school or chatting with their friends rather than going home to rented accommodation, while those with family commitments had to do this "extra work" at home with no optical recognition for that, instead looking as if they were just early darters.

    I completely see you point Powerhouse as I have also had to give some extra classes mainly to make life easier for myself re the very long and detailed course in LC higher English. But my school is very big and it can be managed discreetly at lunchtimes or after school. I would also give the kids a big lecture that under no circumstances are they to go around blabbing about it because the day a collegue feels under pressure to do likewise is the day I stop. I will have to do it again to make up for these days which is partly why I'm so cross. In my part of the country it's a beautiful spring day,just a bit colder than normal.:rolleyes:

    But I'm gobsmacked re that speech from your departing DP. Did he /she actually make that comment about the cars in all seriousness??:eek: Jeez talk about school turning into production centres!


  • Options
    #90
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    acequion wrote: »
    I don't think any teacher should ever dream of bringing students into school and giving them extra free tuition during holidays. It sets a precedent,there's absolutely no thanks for it and it often makes fellow teachers in that subject department look bad if they're not offering something similar.

    ...Says the guy offering extra unofficial lunch time classes :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭acequion


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    ...Says the guy offering extra unofficial lunch time classes :pac:

    Why don't you read my other posts before commenting evolving_doors! In fact as mod are you not supposed to read all the posts??

    So here's a summary. The ONLY reason I would give lunchtime classes is to make life easier for MYSELF by getting the course done. English is one hell of a broad subject and disruption to class time can really set you back. But I hate giving up my lunchtimes and have always been opposed to the practice of offering freebies,even extra curricular. But if it's a toss up between doing a few lunch times or being under huge pressure to cover stuff in every class then I'll take the lunchtimes.

    And again if you read my posts you'd see that I said my school is so big you can do such things discreetly without everybody or even anybody knowing. But if ever any other teacher felt pressures as a result I would stop it on the spot!!

    I'm very fond of and very committed to my students but this is not the developing world. They can go out and pay for extra tuition if they want it and if they can't afford it that's not my problem. They should also pay a small fee towards extra curriculars and voluntary teachers should receive a modest stipend for doing them imo.


Advertisement