The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Andrew Beef · 17-02-2018 01:41PM

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.

And if a couple's contraception fails? She hasnt chosen to be impregnated there either, right?

Tough; no abortion.

amdublin · 17-02-2018 01:43PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Yes abortion. Just in England. At the moment.

Zubeneschamali · 17-02-2018 01:46PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Your going to have to repeal the 13th amendment to make that law.

kylith · 17-02-2018 01:52PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Because she enjoyed the sex and therefore deserves the ‘punishment’ of a baby?

Regardless, Savita died because the 8th was in place. If you think women in her position should have the option of termination then you must vote to repeal the 8th.

If it leads to abortion in Ireland, well, those abortions would have happened anyway, just in England.

January · 17-02-2018 02:48PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

Captain Obvious · 17-02-2018 10:28PM

January wrote: »

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Andrew Beef · 17-02-2018 10:32PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

January wrote: »

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Agreed. If the UK was jumping off a cliff (which it is!), does that mean we should too?

_Dara_ · 17-02-2018 10:34PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Mature.

The calibre of people allowed to vote in this referendum, folks.

AnneFrank · 17-02-2018 11:10PM

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

SusieBlue · 17-02-2018 11:12PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

You’ve posted this twice but still haven’t stated your reasons for voting no?

NuMarvel · 17-02-2018 11:14PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

It is if the people who object to the illegal act being made legal have no interest in actually enforcing the current law. I've lost count of the number of times anti-repealers have said they don't want to criminalise women who have abortions, and yet that's exactly what our abortion law does and has always done.

If the self appointed defenders of the unborn can't find it in themselves to support the current laws, why should anyone else?

NuMarvel · 17-02-2018 11:16PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

There are over 7200 posts across 485 pages... no one is being silenced.

Captain Obvious · 17-02-2018 11:18PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

It is if the people who object to the illegal act being made legal have no interest in actually enforcing the current law. I've lost count of the number of times anti-repealers have said they don't want to criminalise women who have abortions, and yet that's exactly what our abortion law does and has always done.

If the self appointed defenders of the unborn can't find it in themselves to support the current laws, why should anyone else?

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. You think people against abortion aren't really serious unless they want to make the person who has one a criminal?

Achasanai · 17-02-2018 11:19PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Not just on the one side, though, really?

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

AnneFrank wrote: »

Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Going by the first part of your post, I'm guessing there wasn't a huge amount of soul-searching, but a hell of a lot of pretense.

pitifulgod · 17-02-2018 11:22PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Nobody was silenced during same sex marriage referendum. The people who say they were silenced, invariably have columns in newspapers on a weekly basis... People getting banned in threads was because of outrageous and offensive statements..

NuMarvel · 17-02-2018 11:28PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. You think people against abortion aren't really serious unless they want to make the person who has one a criminal?

I'm saying what's the point in having a law that nobody, be they repeal or anti-repeal, pro life or pro choice, wants to enforce.

Captain Obvious · 17-02-2018 11:37PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm saying what's the point in having a law that nobody, be they repeal or anti-repeal, pro life or pro choice, wants to enforce.

There is none. But making a woman a criminal simply for obtaining an abortion is not the only way to enforce the general rule. You can instead punish those who provide them.

_Dara_ · 17-02-2018 11:42PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

I heard all sides of the debate in the lead up to the marriage equality referendum, both here and on current affairs shows and in newspapers. Where was this silencing occurring?

AnneFrank · 17-02-2018 11:47PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

I heard all sides of the debate in the lead up to the marriage equality referendum, both here and on current affairs shows and in newspapers. Where was this silencing occurring?

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

2wsxcde3 · 17-02-2018 11:53PM

A baby that is aborted as a result of an abortion pill has hands, legs, a head and a beating heart. Where does the woman put this little baby after the abortion has taken place in her home?

NuMarvel · 17-02-2018 11:59PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There is none. But making a woman a criminal simply for obtaining an abortion is not the only way to enforce the general rule. You can instead punish those who provide them.

But at the moment, the law doesn't distinguish between the provider and the woman. It can't distinguish between them without at least changing if not outright removing the 8th.

And even if it did, in reality it just means an increasing number of women will continue to import pills. And while decriminalising the woman means she'd be more likely to seek medical attention if something goes wrong, I'd prefer if she were able to have medical guidance from the start of the process.

volchitsa · 18-02-2018 12:02AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

A baby that is aborted as a result of an abortion pill has hands, legs, a head and a beating heart. Where does the woman put this little baby after the abortion has taken place in her home?

What do you think happens most miscarriages at the same stage? Most of them go down the toilet. Is it okay when it's a miscarriage but not when it's an abortion?

NuMarvel · 18-02-2018 12:04AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

As someone who did canvassing for the marriage equality referendum, I know firsthand that people who opposed it weren't silent or silenced. The first No voter I met told me "Two men together was wrong and a danger to children".

And as an aside, most of the older people I met were in favour of it. Some of them enthusiastically so. One of them tried to set me up with his grandson!!

2wsxcde3 · 18-02-2018 12:08AM

volchitsa wrote: »

What do you think happens most miscarriages at the same stage? Most of them go down the toilet. Is it okay when it's a miscarriage but not when it's an abortion?

Alot of people bury the miscarried baby in their family plot and give them a name which is placed on the headstone.

il_340x270.972663144_j25t.jpg

SusieBlue · 18-02-2018 12:15AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Alot of people bury the miscarried baby in their family plot and give them a name which is placed on the headstone.

You asked this the other day and were given an answer.
What you are showing in your picture is a memorial bauble, probably for a Christmas tree. It isn’t a headstone.

Pre 12 weeks the same would happen as what would happen if a woman miscarried at home, it would go down the toilet unless she wanted to save the clots (not sure how she’d be able to do that, but let’s say she wanted to) which of course she could bury if she so wished.
I have certainly never heard of a funeral or a burial plot for a pregnancy lost pre 12 weeks.

Pre 12 weeks most women haven’t even announced their pregnancy due to the fact that at that gestation 1 in 3 of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Most don’t announce until after the12 week scan.

RobertKK · 18-02-2018 12:22AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Doing something illegal, doesn't this come under as being a choice?

2wsxcde3 · 18-02-2018 12:26AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Pre 12 weeks the same would happen as what would happen if a woman miscarried at home, it would go down the toilet unless she wanted to save the clots (not sure how she’d be able to do that, but let’s say she wanted to) which of course she could bury if she so wished.
I have certainly never heard of a funeral or a burial plot for a pregnancy lost pre 12 weeks.

The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

Although the clinic was wonderful, they didn't warn me about the next part. As the tissue had landed on a towel, I thought the best thing to do would be to tip it down the loo. However, as I lifted the towel up, the 'clot' rolled slightly and there was a perfectly formed yet tiny baby lying there. It was almost as long as my thumb, and was perfect. I was told that up until nine weeks, I would not see anything except maybe a 'grey gestational sac'. This was a complete baby. I could see eyes, feet, arms, and the worst - or most vivid part - was that I could clearly count its fingers. It has perfect little hands. I wrapped it in tissue, cleaned myself up and called my partner, crying lots by now. I told him what I'd seen, and I don't think he believed me, because he looked for himself. Then he broke down with me. The bleeding has slowed down now, the clots I'm passing are a lot smaller but I feel drained. I'm weak and dizzy when I try to stand and the cramps are still pretty painful. We cried ourselves to sleep last night. I'm still numb. While we made our decision for the right reasons, I wish I'd been told what to expect by someone who has been through it. I could never go through something like this again. We both feel guilty. He's scared that this will come between us. I'm scared that he will hate me. And after all this, I have a tiny baby wrapped in tissue and I don't know what to do with it. After all this, there's no way I can flush it down the loo. Keeping it feels strange. So what am I supposed to do with it?
(Source: https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/591/well-its-done-yesterday-i-had-a-medical-abortion- )

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

pitifulgod · 18-02-2018 12:28AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Doing something illegal, doesn't this come under as being a choice?

It does(although somewhat cold, want to convict them?) but it also highlights that those who don't have the means to travel are the most affected. Which is a pretty poor reflection on Irish society.

_Dara_ · 18-02-2018 12:29AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

The issue is, there was very few reasonings for voting ‘no’ that I heard personally that weren’t in some way homophobic. If it quacks like a duck etc. Factually saying that something homophobic is homophobic =/= silencing. People should have the courage of their convictions. And if others don’t agree, well sin é.

SusieBlue · 18-02-2018 12:33AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

Although the clinic was wonderful, they didn't warn me about the next part. As the tissue had landed on a towel, I thought the best thing to do would be to tip it down the loo. However, as I lifted the towel up, the 'clot' rolled slightly and there was a perfectly formed yet tiny baby lying there. It was almost as long as my thumb, and was perfect. I was told that up until nine weeks, I would not see anything except maybe a 'grey gestational sac'. This was a complete baby. I could see eyes, feet, arms, and the worst - or most vivid part - was that I could clearly count its fingers. It has perfect little hands. I wrapped it in tissue, cleaned myself up and called my partner, crying lots by now. I told him what I'd seen, and I don't think he believed me, because he looked for himself. Then he broke down with me. The bleeding has slowed down now, the clots I'm passing are a lot smaller but I feel drained. I'm weak and dizzy when I try to stand and the cramps are still pretty painful. We cried ourselves to sleep last night. I'm still numb. While we made our decision for the right reasons, I wish I'd been told what to expect by someone who has been through it. I could never go through something like this again. We both feel guilty. He's scared that this will come between us. I'm scared that he will hate me. And after all this, I have a tiny baby wrapped in tissue and I don't know what to do with it. After all this, there's no way I can flush it down the loo. Keeping it feels strange. So what am I supposed to do with it?
(Source: https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/591/well-its-done-yesterday-i-had-a-medical-abortion- )

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

Oh please, spare me. I’m giving you facts. This is what happens. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

When women present at hospital with miscarriage symptoms in the early stages of her pregnancy (aka pre 12 weeks), she is scanned to confirm same and sent home to let nature take its course.

There is no labor and delivery.
She has an extremely heavy period and passes clots. Usually down the toilet. I don’t say this to demean what happened - this is just the truth.

I have never ever in my life heard of someone having a funeral for a pre 12 week pregnancy and burying the remains.

Please provide a link to prove same - ‘a woman I know etc’ doesnt cut it.

This also has absolutely no relevance to the thread so I’m baffled as to why you keep asking the same question over and over again.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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