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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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Comments

  • #7202
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    kylith wrote: »
    The pregnancy is terminated.

    So when your mother was pregnant with you, you were not alive in her womb?

    From Oxford dictionary:
    pregnant
    ADJECTIVE

    1(of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus.
    ‘she was heavily pregnant with her second child’
    ‘she was six months pregnant’

    I just think your statement of the unborn not being alive in the womb is complete anti-science.


  • #7203
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    The back and forth is only pointless because people like yourself refuse to look at the issue from the the point of view of the other side. Pro life people believe a life is being destroyed. Saying "If you don't want or support abortion, do not get one" to someone who believes this is no different then saying "If you don't support child abuse then don't touch children. No need to prevent others from doing it."

    Exactly.

    The pro-life extremists ignore the right to choose and the right to bodily integrity of a woman.
    The pro-choice extremists ignore the right to life of the unborn.

    It is only when you consider the balance of these rights, together with the practical realities of the UK next door and the ability to order pills over the internet as well as a more sympathetic attitude to women than prevailed in 1983, that you can then reach a conclusion about the issue.


  • #7204
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    kylith wrote: »
    She can be pressured, yes, but if she says to the doctor ‘I don’t want to do this’ they won’t perform the procedure, the same as any other elective procedure.

    It may be the case that she is threatened by family or partner, but the final yes or no is hers. And in this day and age developed countries have enough social supports that withdrawal of family support isn’t a ticket to a workhouse any more.

    Can you imagine the uproar if it was ever discovered that a doctor performed an abortion on a woman who had told him that she didn’t want it?

    I heard if a dreadful situation. A woman decided to have an abortion, scraped all the money together, went to the UK. Got to the clinic. Changed her mind. Decided she didnt want the abortion. Then felt pressured to have it because if she changed her mind again the cost would be unaffordable. Ironically the 8th pressured this woman to have an abortion.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #7205
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    pleas advice wrote: »
    Is there a need for that? Really?

    Yes. The language is jugemental.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #7206
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    pleas advice wrote: »
    Do you actually really think that?

    I do. Some so called pro lifers are definitely mysoginists.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #7207
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I heard if a dreadful situation. A woman decided to have an abortion, scraped all the money together, went to the UK. Got to the clinic. Changed her mind. Decided she didnt want the abortion. Then felt pressured to have it because if she changed her mind again the cost would be unaffordable. Ironically the 8th pressured this woman to have an abortion.

    No it didn't. That's not even logical.


  • #7208
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    No it didn't. That's not even logical.

    Its very logical. If she had been able to access abortion here in her home country then she would have had time to think and decide what she actually wanted. Instead she was forced into spending money on flights and accommodation and then when she got there and didn't want the abortion she felt pressured into having it because if she went back to Ireland and said oh wait I do want the abortion she wouldn't have been able to afford another flight back.


  • #7209
    gallifreya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭gallifreya


    Absolutely agree. Different scenario without the critical time limits but my husband at 29 had 3 children (2 due to total contraceptive failure) and decided that the snip was the best solution. He ran into brick walls trying to get a vasectomy here (due to his age) so we had to go to the UK. No pressure from me at all however, he got an attack of cold feet in the clinic. He could have used a bit more time to consider it but because it wasn't just a case of possibly rescheduling an appointment, he felt he had to go ahead then and there because of the effort involved getting to that point. The travel and logistics aspect along with the expense involved set it in stone for him. I can easily see how a woman seeking an abortion from Ireland under time constraints would feel even worse pressure.


  • #7210
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    January wrote: »
    Its very logical. If she had been able to access abortion here in her home country then she would have had time to think and decide what she actually wanted. Instead she was forced into spending money on flights and accommodation and then when she got there and didn't want the abortion she felt pressured into having it because if she went back to Ireland and said oh wait I do want the abortion she wouldn't have been able to afford another flight back.

    Are you just assuming abortions will be free or cheap in Ireland if the 8th were not in place? Has that been stated somewhere?


  • #7211
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I should be sterilised


    The best of it is, if you want to be sterilised, you can't unless you have a multiple children and near menopause... even then it can be a struggle to find a doctor who'd agree. If someone told me I should be sterilised for supporting pro-choice, I'd reply with "I agree! Find me a doctor who'll do it and it shall be done".


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  • #7212
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Are you just assuming abortions will be free or cheap in Ireland if the 8th were not in place? Has that been stated somewhere?

    Did I mention the cost of the abortion? I mentioned the cost of flights and accommodation which are extra to the cost of the abortion and have to be paid up front and cannot be refunded.

    But yes I am assuming abortion will be free or very cheap when it becomes available here. Maternity care is free for all pregnant people in this country. Abortion falls under maternity care. I envision that the pill will be covered under the GMS and DPS schemes and that surgical abortions will be covered under public care as a day procedure which even if its not free under maternity care will only cost 80 euro bed charge.


  • #7213
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    January wrote: »
    Its very logical. If she had been able to access abortion here in her home country then she would have had time to think and decide what she actually wanted. Instead she was forced into spending money on flights and accommodation and then when she got there and didn't want the abortion she felt pressured into having it because if she went back to Ireland and said oh wait I do want the abortion she wouldn't have been able to afford another flight back.

    Wouldn't this be a perfect example of why a pre-procedure councilling session followed by a few days reflective period should be legislated for.

    Would you oppose such legislation? If so why?

    Like it seems like a reasonable compromise


  • #7214
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Wouldn't this be a perfect example of why a pre-procedure councilling session followed by a few days reflective period should be legislated for.

    Would you oppose such legislation? If so why?


    The woman in that situation didn't even have the counselling and support of her GP. That may be all that is needed.


  • #7215
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Wouldn't this be a perfect example of why a pre-procedure councilling session followed by a few days reflective period should be legislated for.

    Would you oppose such legislation? If so why?

    Like it seems like a reasonable compromise

    Why? Are you saying women are idiots who rush into a decision the minute they pee on the stick? Do you not think we are capable of deciding for ourselves what we need without having to be treated like dopes? Are we going to offer counselling to every pregnant woman who decides to go ahead with the pregnancy or is it just the ones who want abortion who are incapable of making a decision?

    Counselling already exists for crisis pregnancies. It's a good idea to expand it nationwide but make it compulsory?

    I'm all for talking to women privately to make sure they aren't being coerced but making every woman wait is just unnecessary. You can be sure if she's choosing abortion it's because she wants an abortion.


  • #7216
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I would encourage you to look at some of the comments on the pro life pages and you will find there are people who are exactly like that. I've been told one of those pages that I'm a slut, I should be sterilised, be jailed, that I'm a terrible mother, that I'm trying to encourage women to lose the run of themselves, I've seen others called similar things or worse. Just for supporting repeal. It's all about control, about shaming normal sexual behaviour and trying to make women feel bad for wanting choice.

    Is it though? Like repeal simply means repeal of the 8th, for example some islamic countries which have genuine day to day restrictions enforced restrictions on women's lives but still have slightly more liberal law in relation to abortion than Ireland as they consider the soul to only become present after a certain stage of fetal development.


  • #7217
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Why? Are you saying women are idiots who rush into a decision the minute they pee on the stick? Do you not think we are capable of deciding for ourselves what we need without having to be treated like dopes? Are we going to offer counselling to every pregnant woman who decides to go ahead with the pregnancy or is it just the ones who want abortion who are incapable of making a decision?

    Counselling already exists for crisis pregnancies. It's a good idea to expand it nationwide but make it compulsory?

    I'm all for talking to women privately to make sure they aren't being coerced but making every woman wait is just unnecessary. You can be sure if she's choosing abortion it's because she wants an abortion.


    A woman does need to consult her GP. An abortion is a medical procedure and the safety or otherwise of an abortion depends on her individual medical circumstances.


  • #7218
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Is it though? Like repeal simply means repeal of the 8th, for example some islamic countries which have genuine day to day restrictions enforced restrictions on women's lives but still have slightly more liberal law in relation to abortion than Ireland as they consider the soul to only become present after a certain stage of fetal development.

    In my experience it is. Granted those pages tend to attract a certain mindset and I wouldn't say all those in favour of the 8th share those views but these are the groups setting the tone of the Save campaign. There is an overwhelming sense that it's a certain type of woman who looks for an abortion and that if they have access to abortion they will be shagging away and it's that freedom they seem to resent, not the loss of what they consider a life.


  • #7219
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Why? Are you saying women are idiots who rush into a decision the minute they pee on the stick? Do you not think we are capable of deciding for ourselves what we need without having to be treated like dopes? Are we going to offer counselling to every pregnant woman who decides to go ahead with the pregnancy or is it just the ones who want abortion who are incapable of making a decision?

    Counselling already exists for crisis pregnancies. It's a good idea to expand it nationwide but make it compulsory?

    I'm all for talking to women privately to make sure they aren't being coerced but making every woman wait is just unnecessary. You can be sure if she's choosing abortion it's because she wants an abortion.

    That's some serious putting words into my mouth there, I don't think every man is the same and I don't think every woman is either we are all a spectrum.

    Apart from costs why not?if everybody is so sure it's the right decision one session with a counselor and a five (or similar) day wait won't make any difference. Similar laws exist in liberal western European democracies (Germany). It's a decent compromise to a antagonistic issue.

    I personally agree with the idea of a compulsory counseling session for every pregnancy continued or not, it may not make a difference to many people but it could help some who aren't aware of post-pregnancy depression and so on.

    Ps in terms of cost it's all debatable anyway due to future tax impacts etc


  • #7220
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    eviltwin wrote: »
    In my experience it is. Granted those pages tend to attract a certain mindset and I wouldn't say all those in favour of the 8th share those views but these are the groups setting the tone of the Save campaign. There is an overwhelming sense that it's a certain type of woman who looks for an abortion and that if they have access to abortion they will be shagging away and it's that freedom they seem to resent, not the loss of what they consider a life.

    And I could share that video of the angry afro-Irish militant feminist speaking at one of the repeal marches and the fact the audience isn't standing around booing her despite her saying awful stuff. That wouldn't be an honest representation of most Repeal though and in the same way some Facebook pages don't necessarily set the tone of the Pro-life side


  • #7221
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

    Unfortunately for your leaning the stories of women who were forced to carry pregnancies outweigh the ones who were forced to abort.


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  • #7222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    And I could share that video of the angry afro-Irish militant feminist speaking at one of the repeal marches and the fact the audience isn't standing around booing her despite her saying awful stuff. That wouldn't be an honest representation of most Repeal though and in the same way some Facebook pages don't necessarily set the tone of the Pro-life side

    Dont be silly. I wouldn't want to say you're stupid, but if you think all "Repeal" people are that woman then you need to wake up.

    I'm sure as a pro lifer you are ashamed at some of the things "your" side do. Likewise. We're not all the same.


  • #7223
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Dont be silly. I wouldn't want to say you're stupid, but if you think all "Repeal" people are that woman then you need to wake up.

    I'm sure as a pro lifer you are ashamed at some of the things "your" side do. Likewise. We're not all the same.

    That's my whole point, that woman doesn't represents one side and some Facebook page doesn't represent the other.

    I want a German legislation type system which I think most preserve the 8th disagree with completely but which IMO would be a good fit for Ireland.


  • #7224
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    January wrote: »
    Did I mention the cost of the abortion? I mentioned the cost of flights and accommodation which are extra to the cost of the abortion and have to be paid up front and cannot be refunded.

    But yes I am assuming abortion will be free or very cheap when it becomes available here. Maternity care is free for all pregnant people in this country. Abortion falls under maternity care. I envision that the pill will be covered under the GMS and DPS schemes and that surgical abortions will be covered under public care as a day procedure which even if its not free under maternity care will only cost 80 euro bed charge.

    If you're talking about financial disinsentives then the cost of abortion is very relevant. If the cost of an abortion in Ireland is more than the cost of travelling to the UK and having one then changing the 8th won't really affect your example. And the assumption that an abortion will only be an €80 bed charge is a pretty big one. It's an elective procedure in most cases. I can't see why it would be covered by the state unless medically necessary and it remains to be seen how insurance companies will cover it.

    Aside form that, as you can see from the example given after you a man looking for a procedure that was completely legal and available in Ireland faced the exact same dilemma when he went over. So it's nothing really to do with the 8th.


  • #7225
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I do. Some so called pro lifers are definitely mysoginists.

    Probably, some pro choice people probably are too.
    The debate doesn't centre on that though.


  • #7226
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Edward M wrote: »
    Probably, some pro choice people probably are too.
    The debate doesn't centre on that though.

    No reason it should either.


  • #7227
    Andrew Beef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Andrew Beef


    I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

    I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.


  • #7228
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

    I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

    In that case, you support repeal. Because whatever discussion may be had about the circumstances you think women should be able to access abortion, nothing can change without repealing the 8th first.


  • #7229
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

    I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

    And what has the unborn child in a rape case done, in your opinion, not to have a right to life?


  • #7230
    Andrew Beef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Andrew Beef


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

    I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

    And what has the unborn child in a rape case done, in your opinion, not to have a right to life?

    Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.


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  • #7231
    chalkitdown1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭chalkitdown1


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.

    And if a couple's contraception fails? She hasnt chosen to be impregnated there either, right?


This discussion has been closed.
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