Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

pilly · 15-02-2018 7:53pm

jmayo wrote:

Actually it is not that small a village if you have a doctor, a butcher and still have a post office. Probably not in the west of Ireland anyway.

Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.

pilly · 15-02-2018 7:54pm

jmayo wrote:

BTW you chose to live in a village, some people choose not to. You think that only you should have a choice ?

Not when their choice costs others no.

jmayo · 15-02-2018 8:03pm

pilly wrote: »

Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.

How many pubs ?

BTW to support a doctor and butcher then you must have a sizable population in the village's hinterland.

15-02-2018 8:11pm

pilly wrote: »

Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.

Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.

BonnieSituation · 15-02-2018 8:14pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.

You are really failing to grasp what we are on about here in totality. I mean you're just not getting it.

jobbridge4life · 15-02-2018 8:16pm

pilly wrote: »

There's a huge difference. I live in a small village btw. I can walk to the shop, post office, pub, doctor, butcher's and indeed a primary school if I had kids. Granted there isn't a secondary school but there's a school bus.

The difference with one off houses is the provisions of the services they demand out to those same houses. Broadband, postal services, ambulance etc etc.

I'm not irresponsible enough to think in my old age that I can expect everything to come to me wherever I decide to live. That's why I choose to live in a village.

I've already said I've no argument with farmers living on a farm but we all know the vast majority of one off houses are not farms.

And yes I also do think the majority are eyesores

Thank you Pilly. As the son of a farmer I feel you have articulated close to perfectly my concerns about the development of rural Ireland.

I am fortunate enough to be from a village next to a very small town where one woman has basically made it her crusade to reinvigorate the town centre. She has had amazing success. Thankfully the residents of my village are now learning from it. Realising that you need to have a functioning core, and that this means investment in the centre, not spread out to the farthest reaches of where people choose to live.

AND NOT BECAUSE THOSE WHO LIVE CLOSE TO THE CENTRE ARE MORE DESERVING BUT BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE INVESTMENT CAN HAVE THE GREATEST PAYBACK FOR ALL.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:16pm

BonnieSituation wrote:

You are really failing to grasp what we are on about here in totality. I mean you're just not getting it.

People who live in a bubble very often don't get it.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:21pm

jmayo wrote:

BTW to support a doctor and butcher then you must have a sizable population in the village's hinterland.

350 includes hinterland, figure from the last census. Doctor sits on Tuesday and Friday. Don't really know what you're trying to prove here?

Post offices, shops, butcher's etc are supported by the people who live in the villages using them.

It always makes me laugh when the post office argument comes up most often by people who haven't been in one in a year.

People living in villages and towns are what keeps the local economy going, not the guys living in the one offs who just drive into a large town and never go into the local shop or post office.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:22pm

jobbridge4life wrote:

I am fortunate enough to be from a village next to a very small town where one woman has basically made it her crusade to reinvigorate the town centre. She has had amazing success. Thankfully the residents of my village are now learning from it. Realising that you need to have a functioning core, and that this means investment in the centre, not spread out to the farthest reaches of where people choose to live.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The more people living close to the village or town is what will SAVE rural Ireland. Create a vibrancy in your own village.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:27pm

People seem to think this is an urban vs rural argument when it's really not. There are plenty of rural people who agree with centering things.

jmayo · 15-02-2018 8:29pm

pilly wrote: »

Not when their choice costs others no.

But your choice is also costing others as you live in a small village.
Taking the economies of scale, if you moved to an even bigger town then you probably would save the state money.

If you take this to it's logical conclusion then everyone should live in a city and in the heart of that city.

Also if you start looking at the cost of everything and the value of nothing, you will soon come to a conclusion that no money should be spent in areas like Jobstown or Southill, that no money should be spent on promoting Irish language TV, no money should be spent on RTE's national symphony orchestra, etc, etc.

Where do you stop?
Do you stop aiding the old, the sick, the infirmed because after all they are economically unviable and a drain on the state, i.e the ones contributing ?

And make no mistake there are people with some of those views.
And I bet you have some of them right here posting.

I live in the country.
I don't expect the same services as someone living in the heart of a town or city.
I don't expect street lighting, footpaths, or indeed the same broadband service that those in a city can get.
I think it is ridiculous to expect fibre to the home.

I expect that if I was in an accident or got ill that it would take time to get an ambulance to me, but I don't think I should have to wait hours because the nearest big hospital have ambulances tied up because they haven't the beds for the population of the area they serve or because they haven't enough ambulances for the population be they in towns or rural.

BTW a big problem with our hospitals isn't down to geographical hinterlands, but the fact that they have less beds now than they did when we had half the population.

I do expect some form of adequate policing and get this the criminal that breaks into my property or attacks me as sure as sh** will break into a property or attack a person in a town some day as well.
Criminals tend to be equal opportunities individuals when it suits.

I expect the local road to be in some form of decent repair and so probably do the townies and city types that use it of a weekend.

I pay for more fuel because I drive more, I probably pay for more car maintenance and thus help keep my mechanic in employment and add to his tax returns.

Yes I am connected to a disparate electricity network, but those lines would have to be left in place to service farms in the area.

I pay for my own water and sewage and it is in my own damn interest not to have shyte getting into local water sources, despite what some numpties may think of rural dwellers.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:30pm

Kye High Lacrosse wrote:

Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.

It's really not just as easy. We all know there are houses 30 minutes from anywhere up dangerous narrow roads that can be frequently inaccessible in bad weather.

BonnieSituation · 15-02-2018 8:33pm

pilly wrote: »

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The more people living close to the village or town is what will SAVE rural Ireland. Create a vibrancy in your own village.

This is the point most of us are trying to make but certain posters are ignoring sense.

pilly · 15-02-2018 8:37pm

jmayo wrote:

But your choice is also costing others as you live in a small village. Taking the economies of scale, if you moved to an even bigger town then you probably would save the state money.

jmayo wrote:

Also if you start looking at the cost of everything and the value of nothing, you will soon come to a conclusion that no money should be spent in areas like Jobstown or Southill, that no money should be spent on promoting Irish language TV, no money should be spent on RTE's national symphony orchestra, etc, etc.

You see you're also failing to grasp that there's a middle ground. It's not urban or rural, it's about grouping people together into communities.

Things like language and music benefit society as a whole. A one off house in the country doesn't. A farm does, I've already agreed that point. But farms should be the only ones. Not sure why jobstown comes into the argument?

15-02-2018 8:40pm

pilly wrote: »

350 includes hinterland, figure from the last census. Doctor sits on Tuesday and Friday. Don't really know what you're trying to prove here?

Post offices, shops, butcher's etc are supported by the people who live in the villages using them.

It always makes me laugh when the post office argument comes up most often by people who haven't been in one in a year.

People living in villages and towns are what keeps the local economy going, not the guys living in the one offs who just drive into a large town and never go into the local shop or post office.

You are kidding yourself if you think that people living in a village or smal town are any less likely to drive to the closest big shopping town to do their main shopping while on the other hand thinking a person living a few miles outside the town will not go to the local town for bits and pieces during the week.

We go to our local town for the hardware store (a lot spent there), milk and the paper etc, the bank amd credit union the pub and the church but we don't do much food shopping there as you would be robbed doing your weekly shop there.

NIMAN · 15-02-2018 8:42pm

Looking forward to this plan being released to see how the NW fares!

It appears you could draw a line across the country from Dublin, and everything above that is forgotten.

Mick ah · 15-02-2018 8:50pm

While we're talking about bang for buck. Got a newsletter in the door from a local councillor.
It cost €125k to resurface not even 1km of road that runs through the part of Dublin I'm from.

That is insane. No one thinks about the cost of road maintenance in this country. Especially our councils. I reckon it's because maintenance money comes from central government.

Honestly, and I say this as a citizen of this country, not a Dub, we should focus on promoting living closer together. It's possible to provide a nice living environment and good homes (not necessarily houses) while having people live densely enough for public transport too be viable.

If we can change mindsets and get more people out of their cars we can invest the money in other things.

At the moment instead we have massive amounts of public money being used on roads and massive amounts of private money on cars and fuel. Imagine if that €60 a week you spend on diesel was spent locally instead. How much more prosperous would we be!

And yes, Dublin planners have a lot to answer for. And we should be doing better! But one off housing is terrible financially and environmentally.

The answer isn't simple, and it's emotive for a lot of people, but we need to talk rationally about what sort of society we want and how it should be financed.

Personally, I feel that if councils had to raise (and could raise) their own taxes and had to pay for services out of them, then we'd already have seen an end to one off houses, because unless the occupiers pay for everything, they wouldn't be viable to service.
I'm not advocating a change to the funding model, I'm just using it to make a point.

John_Rambo · 15-02-2018 8:53pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Another one of your condesending nonsense filled posts directed at me, full of guess work and claimed "facts"

That's a bit pot/kettle from the master of condescend! You're calling peoples (real, and not imagined) homes pokey on this thread! And, regarding the facts...

You openly admit you're going to inherit the farm on boards.ie because you're the oldest son and your sisters may get a bit of land.

You tell us on boards.ie that your "home house" is in Galway.

Your house with multiple garages, server rooms, walk in wardrobes etc.. doesn't actually exist outside of your mind. You told us that in this thread on boards.ie, you don't even have planning permission for it. (see on this thread you're huge post describing exactly how you're going to build your house, how bit it will be, how many rooms it will have etc...)

So, unless the facts you furnished are another figment of your active imagination you'll find I'm pretty much correct.

Mick ah wrote: »

Full disclosure. I'm against one of houses (most of the time). I'm pro town/village/city. Whatever helps create communities and car dependency.

However you are right. If the man is actually going to farm then he should be allowed build on the land to facilitate doing business.

However, why not make it so that one has to build right beside your parents house, or else attach to it.
The object here is to facilitate individuals running a farm etc. Not to allow them to abuse local needs planning.

Yeah, but sure it's the most abused planning law in the country and there is issues with elderly farmers avoiding succession plans and working in to their seventies and eighties which leaves a lot of forty and fifty year old bachelors "minding the folks"... basically living with and working for their dad and having little or no say in the running of the farm.

It's a tough one, open to abuse along with a very very strong sense of entitlement to "do what you want on your land" without a thought for the environment or the future.

fionnsci · 15-02-2018 8:53pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Looking forward to this plan being released to see how the NW fares!

It appears you could draw a line across the country from Dublin, and everything above that is forgotten.

Makes sense given that the 26 counties' main urban centres are all below that line. The "northwest" argument is over-done, it's strikes me as a little arbitrary. If Galway was 100km further north, it'd get the same funding. If Sligo was 100km further south, it'd get the same funding.

Consonata · 15-02-2018 8:57pm

Kye High Lacrosse wrote:

We go to our local town for the hardware store (a lot spent there), milk and the paper etc, the bank amd credit union the pub and the church but we don't do much food shopping there as you would be robbed doing your weekly shop there.

You'd be robbed because not many people shop there due to so many people driving to large urban centres when they have the option, rather than walking within communities, because so many people are living in one off accomodation.

I'm surprised the issue of small schools has not been brought up here yet actually, because from my view that seems to be one of the most costly things that has arisen from one off housing.

There are 379 primary schools with 2 teachers or less in the country. 379 schools which need:
- separate boards of management,
- funding for building repair,
- heating,
- electricity
- separate bus routes etc.

It is one of the biggest wastes in our education budget and it is directly connected to people living in sparse communities and demanding that a school should be behind every cut stone wall in the west of Ireland

15-02-2018 9:00pm

I get that building in or near existing villages or towns would probably be good for the household, the village and society in general but blanket bans isn't going to suddenly create opportunities to build in or next to those villages.

15-02-2018 9:04pm

Consonata wrote: »

There are 379 primary schools with 2 teachers or less in the country. 379 schools which need seperate boards of management, funding for building repair, heating, electricity etc. It is one of the biggest wastes in our education budget and it is directly connected to people living in sparse communities and demanding that a school should be behind every cut stone wall in the west of ireland

How many of these have opened in the past 40 years? I imagine most date (like my primary school) from the days when there was a large population living and working within walking distance.

greenfield21 · 15-02-2018 9:09pm

PhoenixParker · 15-02-2018 9:11pm

What is the difference between a one off house a km from a small village and a house in a small village ?
There will not be a Garda station, a post office, a bank, a hospital, a supermarket, no secondary school, no real bus service most likely.

Either way the people living in that small village are going to have to use cars to get anywhere like shopping, schools, work, etc.

For a start there'll be a primary school and kids who can safely walk there which is a massive health and wellbeing benefit for kids and allows independence. Socially it makes after school activities and contact much easier to arrange for that age group. From a government point of view that saves on school buses too.

There might not be a secondary school but there can be one or two bus stops and a direct journey to the local school instead of a meandering long route through the countryside.

A centre of population also means there's the possibility of an actual bus service to large local towns which can serve workers, the elderly, those who don't drive or those who can't afford a second car.

There won't be a hospital but there might be a GP or pharmacy, both very handy to have nearby especially if you find it difficult to drive/can't drive. If a GP needs to make a home visit, vanishingly rare I know, it takes 20 minutes instead of an hour. If the HSE is providing home care travel costs and time are massively reduced. The same budget can provide more hours per person. Not so little things like that can be the difference between an elderly person living independently or having to move to a nursing home.

The local pub will have people who can get there and back safely which means it's far more likely to stay open generating employment but also giving a space for community connections to form and a social outlet.

The little things like being able to walk to a local shop and stop to say hello to a few people on the way are huge if you're in any way lonely or isolated.

Villages are very different to isolated one off houses.

AlmightyCushion · 15-02-2018 9:16pm

jmayo wrote: »

I know a school based in a village and a lot of the villagers actually drive their kids to it.

And the small villages will not have the numbers for a secondary school so transport.
Most of the shopping will be done in the nearest Lidl, Aldi, Tesco or Dunnes in the nearest large town so still driving.

Walk to work ????
So is every village going to get a factory. :eek:
Better tell that poster from earlier.

Seriously I don't know where some of you guys live or are from, but about the only thing people will walk to is the local pub.
And yes maybe the national school.

Granted wired broadband would be easier to supply.
And yes there would be less need for electricity lines, but then again lines will have to be maintained to give power to farms, etc.
Or will they be told they shouldn't have power ?

Also has anyone ever thought that by moving everyone into a village you are then pushing the cost of water and sewage provision onto the local council (the state, the taxpayers) and not the individual as is with one off housing ?

No for true cost benefits that some people want the only solution is everyone moves to a city, preferably the mecca of Ireland Dublin's inner city.

When talking about shops, work and schools I used the word local before them. Sure if they work in another town or city they'll drive. That is fairly obvious. If they work in the local town, then they can walk to work.

No one is saying farmers shouldn't have power. Arguments like this are just stupid.

Some small towns will have supermarkets, they won't have everything you need like a big supermarket will but they would carry a lot of it. Even if you live in a small village with only a small shop, people living in the village can walk to the local shop when they run out of milk or bread or whatever instead of driving to the same shop (they're not going to drive to the lidl in the next big town to get some milk). Seriously, I don't see what is so hard to comprehend here. If people have services close to them, they are more likely to walk to them or cycle instead of hopping in the car. If people lived in villages and towns instead of a few KM down the road from them in a one off house, then they would be more likely to walk to those services instead of driving.

John_Rambo · 15-02-2018 9:46pm

jmayo wrote: »

No for true cost benefits that some people want the only solution is everyone moves to a city, preferably the mecca of Ireland Dublin's inner city.

Except nobody said this. Just you.

markodaly · 15-02-2018 9:59pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Honestly what are you talking about? Vain?

No it's very not vain it's having the house I want, you might be happy spending a few 100k on a small house or poky apartment and making do with that so you can live in other things people's laps but for me that just doesn't cut it. Having the house I want with the space, layout and facilities I want is far more important than being able to walk to a cafe.

15-02-2018 10:09pm

Here's one for ye, why do farmers have to live on the farm?

Everyone else has a commute to work, I don't see them being any different. It's done this way all over the world. They live in the village and drive to their land.

No (logical) reason Irish farmers couldn't do the same

John_Rambo · 15-02-2018 10:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's one for ye, why do farmers have to live on the farm?

Everyone else has a commute to work, I don't see them being any different. It's done this way all over the world. They live in the village and drive to their land.

No (logical) reason Irish farmers couldn't do the same

I've worked on farms, when it comes to livestock there's a 100% need for someone on site. Particularly lambing, dairy and beef. Mind you the percentage of these among current rural one off house dwellers is tiny. The one off housing scourge is a further reason for farmers to be on site with dogs straying, theft and other problems because of increased rural population.

markodaly · 15-02-2018 10:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's one for ye, why do farmers have to live on the farm?

Everyone else has a commute to work, I don't see them being any different. It's done this way all over the world. They live in the village and drive to their land.

No (logical) reason Irish farmers couldn't do the same

I understand completely why farmers need to live out on the land, being close to livesstock is one. However, not everyone out in the sticks is a farmer.

15-02-2018 10:44pm

markodaly wrote: »

I understand completely why farmers need to live out on the land, being close to livesstock is one. However, not everyone out in the sticks is a farmer.

A neighbour of mine when they first moved to their urban generated rural one off house many years ago supposedly complained that they didn't realise there would be so many farmers around.

15-02-2018 10:46pm

markodaly wrote: »

You could make the same statement about anyone on the thread. Plenty of "I want to be close to cafes, "I want to be able to walk to work", I want to be close to aminities", "I want to live in big city" etc etc.

markodaly · 15-02-2018 10:50pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

You could make the same statement about anyone on the thread. Plenty of "I want to be close to cafes, "I want to be able to walk to work", I want to be close to aminities", "I want to live in big city" etc etc.

You want your cake and to eat it as well.

You want your MTV cribs McMansion with road frontage but want others to subsidise the cost of that, namely connections for the ESB and BB.

Tell me how · 15-02-2018 11:42pm

Deleted User wrote:

Here's one for ye, why do farmers have to live on the farm?

Added security. Unless you want them bring their tools home everyday. That wouldn't be difficult, I mean, that's what other people have to do.

Also, lambing/calving season would mean driving all night which we wouldn't want would we.

marno21 · 15-02-2018 11:55pm

Going back to the topic at hand, has anyone seen a time for when this will be published?

pilly · 16-02-2018 12:15am

Deleted User wrote:

Here's one for ye, why do farmers have to live on the farm?

Deleted User wrote:

Everyone else has a commute to work, I don't see them being any different. It's done this way all over the world. They live in the village and drive to their land.

Deleted User wrote:

No (logical) reason Irish farmers couldn't do the same

Disagree with this one completely. Farming is not a 9-5 job.

Anyway, farmers are not the problem.

marno21 · 16-02-2018 12:52am

From the Morning Papers

* Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg
* DART Expansion to Maynooth and Drogheda (??)
* 1bn for rural towns
* Metro including Luas Green Line
* Cork-Limerick motorway

BonnieSituation · 16-02-2018 12:56am

marno21 wrote: »

From the Morning Papers

* Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg
* DART Expansion to Maynooth and Drogheda (??)
* 1bn for rural towns
* Metro including Luas Green Line
* Cork-Limerick motorway

We're upgrading the green line to metro standard... And then putting more trams further out beyond the M50. What about metro outside the M50. You couldn't make it up.

The Lucan alignment will be interesting. And not good interesting. If it dog legs at Ballyfermot to head down the Kylemore Road to join the red line either at the Naas Road or down the canal to join the red line at black horse you can keep it.

It needs to get directly into town and hit Heuston via Con Colbert and John's Road.

Tell me how · 16-02-2018 1:16am

marno21 wrote:

* Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg * DART Expansion to Maynooth and Drogheda (??) * 1bn for rural towns * Metro including Luas Green Line * Cork-Limerick motorway

Does it suggest how the â‚¬1B will be spent in towns and who gets what?

markodaly · 16-02-2018 1:17am

* Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg - Finglas would be the only one I support there, Luas is grand when moving small distances but to Bray? **** off!

* DART Expansion to Maynooth and Drogheda (??) - Good, but what about Dart Underground

* 1bn for rural towns - Not sure, its this the one for everyone in the audience? What about the cities?

* Metro including Luas Green Line - Good, if this means upgrading this line to Metro

* Cork-Limerick motorway - Good

marno21 · 16-02-2018 1:19am

Irish Examiner also indicates the N86 Tralee-Dingle (24km remaining) will be included, cost will be approx €60m

marno21 · 16-02-2018 1:19am

Tell me how wrote: »

Does it suggest how the €1B will be spent in towns and who gets what?

We'll likely find out in full tomorrow.

Shn99 · 16-02-2018 1:42am

Will the NPF conference be streamed on social media tomorrow does anyone know?

Peter Flynt · 16-02-2018 1:48am

This shower of muppets in FG have been in power for the best part of a decade.

Public services are a mess due to underinvestment, there's no housing policy (because most of them are landlords) and the transport system is beyong a joke.

They can't sort out day to day basic issues and they're planning for 2040?

Gimme a break.

Just PR nonsense.

Zebra3 · 16-02-2018 7:37am

Seems to be nothing to indicate DU will be planned.

salmocab · 16-02-2018 9:12am

NIMAN wrote: »

Looking forward to this plan being released to see how the NW fares!

It appears you could draw a line across the country from Dublin, and everything above that is forgotten.

So it appears you could draw a line across the country and it would mean nothing

salmocab · 16-02-2018 9:14am

Without details obviously but apart from DU everything else seems reasonable.

pilly · 16-02-2018 9:23am

salmocab wrote:

Without details obviously but apart from DU everything else seems reasonable.

Can I ask what DU is?

L1011 · 16-02-2018 9:25am

The Luas to Bray would hopefully remove some N11 traffic to rail for Cherrywood etc. It's not for people going all the way in. This is what having a transport *network* allows

Zebra3 · 16-02-2018 9:25am

DART Underground.

Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

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