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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,348 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    bk wrote: »
    Huh?! People in rural Ireland travel significantly further everyday then those living in urban Ireland and I can pull up the CEO stats if you need proof.

    Lots of cars have auto shutoff systems or are hybrids, so don't pollute when stuck in traffic.

    They travel further at a quicker pace, not crawling along in traffic.

    And auto shutoff is only a new thing on newer cars and hybrids a fair few will argue are more a drain on the environment through their manufacturer.
    bk wrote: »
    I actually live outside the canals and don't own a car. I mostly walk, cycle, the odd bus and very odd taxi. Not unusual at all for people in my neighbourhood. Pretty much anywhere inside the M50 and you don't need a car at all.

    BTW interestingly rural Ireland has significantly worse air quality then urban Ireland, happy to pull up the stats for you if you need.

    So all those dirty old buses, all those cars crawling along in traffic are not contributing pollution to the environment in the cities ?

    BTW I find it a bit incongruous that you are a mod of the commuting and transport forum when you don't commute to work or don't it appears use public transport.
    Hell you are like that guy in charge of Dublin traffic system that just uses a bike. :rolleyes:

    Oh and just because you are relatively near work that you can walk or cycle try living in say Stillorgan and working in Santry, Parkwest or Citywest.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    99% of Nox’s posts are irrelevant on this thread, in fact most seem to be boastful posts about his imaginary ostentatious house, the rest of his posts seem to be sneering and looking down at people the dwell in more modest homes that actually exist.

    Either way, he's to inherit the family farm in Galway, so he’s a food producer with a connection to the land and therefore needs and should live rural.

    Ahh for fecks sake, why didn't you say he was from Galway. :p
    pilly wrote: »
    I don't see anyone suggesting that people shouldn't live rurally.

    They're suggesting that one off houses scattered all over the country doesn't work, which it doesn't. Simple.

    What is the difference between a one off house a km from a small village and a house in a small village ?
    There will not be a Garda station, a post office, a bank, a hospital, a supermarket, no secondary school, no real bus service most likely.

    Either way the people living in that small village are going to have to use cars to get anywhere like shopping, schools, work, etc.

    People here just play it that they are very anti one off house when really if they are look at their arguments about travel, not enough sustainable numbers for services then they are anti anything not a big town or city.

    Or else maybe they just don't like one off houses aesthetically ruining their visit to the countryside?
    pilly wrote: »
    It's a very good point, how many houses does it take to run a farm?

    You try living away from a dairy farm or a sheep farm when calving and lambing is on.
    Then come back to us and tell us how achievable it is.

    Or do you suggest that the ones inheriting the farm should just turf out the parents or just share with them ?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 34,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AlmightyCushion


    jmayo wrote: »
    What is the difference between a one off house a km from a small village and a house in a small village ?
    There will not be a Garda station, a post office, a bank, a hospital, a supermarket, no secondary school, no real bus service most likely.

    Either way the people living in that small village are going to have to use cars to get anywhere like shopping, schools, work, etc.

    People here just play it that they are very anti one off house when really if they are look at their arguments about travel, not enough sustainable numbers for services then they are anti anything not a big town or city.

    Or else maybe they just don't like one off houses aesthetically ruining their visit to the countryside?

    Lots of differences. They'll use the car less for one as they can just walk to the local shop, schools, work etc. Broadband is a lot easier and cheaper to provide to people living in a village or town than it is to people living along multiple different roads in one off houses leading into and out of said town or village. Electricity and water would probably be cheaper and easier to provide as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭ snotboogie


    DaCor wrote: »
    This from Dev Jr.

    http://connachttribune.ie/planning-framework-will-squeeze-life-rural-ireland-487/

    Makes me think there is going to be something along the lines of restrictions on how far one off builds can be done outside of towns/villages.

    What baffles me though, is this type of restriction would serve to grow rural towns and villages, not wipe them out

    The idea is that if developers and individuals cannot build one off housing there will be greater demand in towns, which will lead to more housing in towns. The Galway light rail debate this week kind of highlights this, Galway doesn't have the density for light rail but is blighted by traffic. If there was greater density in Galway City there could be a light rail solution. Instead you have thousands commuting from outside the city and no solution available other than more raods.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    jmayo wrote:
    People here just play it that they are very anti one off house when really if they are look at their arguments about travel, not enough sustainable numbers for services then they are anti anything not a big town or city.


    There's a huge difference. I live in a small village btw. I can walk to the shop, post office, pub, doctor, butcher's and indeed a primary school if I had kids. Granted there isn't a secondary school but there's a school bus.

    The difference with one off houses is the provisions of the services they demand out to those same houses. Broadband, postal services, ambulance etc etc.

    I'm not irresponsible enough to think in my old age that I can expect everything to come to me wherever I decide to live. That's why I choose to live in a village.

    I've already said I've no argument with farmers living on a farm but we all know the vast majority of one off houses are not farms.

    And yes I also do think the majority are eyesores


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    That's right. Just read that which you agree with.

    I don't think you understand not every debate has binary positions.


    Have you any answer to the question I've asked you or are you simply going to make smart remarks?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    RTE news just now

    Oh dear! How unfortunate that the link died from the place up in arms about being left out of an aspect of the new plan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,348 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Lots of differences. They'll use the car less for one as they can just walk to the local shop, schools, work etc.

    I know a school based in a village and a lot of the villagers actually drive their kids to it.

    And the small villages will not have the numbers for a secondary school so transport.
    Most of the shopping will be done in the nearest Lidl, Aldi, Tesco or Dunnes in the nearest large town so still driving.

    Walk to work ????
    So is every village going to get a factory. :eek:
    Better tell that poster from earlier.

    Seriously I don't know where some of you guys live or are from, but about the only thing people will walk to is the local pub.
    And yes maybe the national school.
    Broadband is a lot easier and cheaper to provide to people living in a village or town than it is to people living along multiple different roads in one off houses leading into and out of said town or village. Electricity and water would probably be cheaper and easier to provide as well.

    Granted wired broadband would be easier to supply.
    And yes there would be less need for electricity lines, but then again lines will have to be maintained to give power to farms, etc.
    Or will they be told they shouldn't have power ?

    Also has anyone ever thought that by moving everyone into a village you are then pushing the cost of water and sewage provision onto the local council (the state, the taxpayers) and not the individual as is with one off housing ?

    No for true cost benefits that some people want the only solution is everyone moves to a city, preferably the mecca of Ireland Dublin's inner city.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,778 ✭✭✭✭ Juniper Black Pinprick


    bk wrote: »
    Any reason why all of that can't be done in a town or village setting?

    If people are orginally from the town it makes sense but if someone is from the country side and want to live beside family then they need to live in the country side, particulary if they are from a farm as it won't be moving anywhere and the fact they have land to build on means they can use this rather than have to buy a site.

    Also and above all a lot of people simply dont want to live in a city, town or village. They want to live in country side location.
    bk wrote: »
    Also you seem to have this idea that only young single people live in cities!!!

    Lots and lots of generations of families living in cities, looking after young kids and elderly people.

    Of course lots and lots of generations of families live in cities I never said they didn't and I have no problem with it at all, I know that lots of people want to live in cities and of course anyone who wants to can.

    My main issue and why I even started posting in this thread is the pretty crap attitude of a lot of ubran dwellers on this thread who have no respect whatsoever for people who want to live rurally and if they could they would pull them all out of their houses and heard them into towns and cities.
    bk wrote: »
    You also ignored my earlier points about elderly people becoming socially isolated and trapped in their homes once they can no longer drive.

    This is why its good when familes cluster togeather, you don't have this issue. Of my elderly realitives who lived very old all drive into their mid 80's and one drove until 90. They never had any issue with being isolated and when they couldn't drive they lived close to family so had no problems getting help or moved in with family if they need extra care.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    99% of Nox’s posts are irrelevant on this thread, in fact most seem to be boastful posts about his imaginary ostentatious house, the rest of his posts seem to be sneering and looking down at people the dwell in more modest homes that actually exist.

    Either way, he's to inherit the family farm in Galway, so he’s a food producer with a connection to the land and therefore needs and should live rural.

    Another one of your condesending nonsense filled posts directed at me, full of guess work and claimed "facts".
    pilly wrote: »
    It is simple. What's complicated about it?

    Yes farmers need to live away from the local village or town. No-one else needs to, they just want to. And in the future they won't be allowed to.

    Lots of other people do, families of farmers not involved in farming, people who provide services in rural areas, people who want to live rurally, yes these should be fully entitled to despite what some city dictators think.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    Lots of other people do, families of farmers not involved in farming, people who provide services in rural areas, people who want to live rurally, yes these should be fully entitled to despite what some city dictators think.


    So they don't need to live there, they want to. That's the point I was making. Not sure what your argument is except everyone in the country should be allowed to do what they want?

    You understand the concept of limited resources I presume?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,348 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    pilly wrote: »
    There's a huge difference. I live in a small village btw. I can walk to the shop, post office, pub, doctor, butcher's and indeed a primary school if I had kids. Granted there isn't a secondary school but there's a school bus.

    Actually it is not that small a village if you have a doctor, a butcher and still have a post office.
    Probably not in the west of Ireland anyway.

    How many pubs, that is the true measure ?
    pilly wrote: »
    The difference with one off houses is the provisions of the services they demand out to those same houses. Broadband, postal services, ambulance etc etc.

    Ehh how is the ambulance going to get to you in the small village?
    Why don't you just move to the nearest big town with the hospital and be done with it ?

    And taking this to the nth degree shouldn't old people just move somewhere near a church and a graveyard ?
    pilly wrote: »
    I'm not irresponsible enough to think in my old age that I can expect everything to come to me wherever I decide to live. That's why I choose to live in a village.

    I've already said I've no argument with farmers living on a farm but we all know the vast majority of one off houses are not farms.

    And yes I also do think the majority are eyesores

    It's really that last point isn't it ?

    BTW you chose to live in a village, some people choose not to.
    You think that only you should have a choice ?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    jmayo wrote:
    Actually it is not that small a village if you have a doctor, a butcher and still have a post office. Probably not in the west of Ireland anyway.


    Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    jmayo wrote:
    BTW you chose to live in a village, some people choose not to. You think that only you should have a choice ?


    Not when their choice costs others no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,348 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    pilly wrote: »
    Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.

    How many pubs ?

    BTW to support a doctor and butcher then you must have a sizable population in the village's hinterland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,778 ✭✭✭✭ Juniper Black Pinprick


    pilly wrote: »
    Population 350, if that's not small I don't know what is.

    Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.

    You are really failing to grasp what we are on about here in totality. I mean you're just not getting it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭ jobbridge4life


    pilly wrote: »
    There's a huge difference. I live in a small village btw. I can walk to the shop, post office, pub, doctor, butcher's and indeed a primary school if I had kids. Granted there isn't a secondary school but there's a school bus.

    The difference with one off houses is the provisions of the services they demand out to those same houses. Broadband, postal services, ambulance etc etc.

    I'm not irresponsible enough to think in my old age that I can expect everything to come to me wherever I decide to live. That's why I choose to live in a village.

    I've already said I've no argument with farmers living on a farm but we all know the vast majority of one off houses are not farms.

    And yes I also do think the majority are eyesores

    Thank you Pilly. As the son of a farmer I feel you have articulated close to perfectly my concerns about the development of rural Ireland.

    I am fortunate enough to be from a village next to a very small town where one woman has basically made it her crusade to reinvigorate the town centre. She has had amazing success. Thankfully the residents of my village are now learning from it. Realising that you need to have a functioning core, and that this means investment in the centre, not spread out to the farthest reaches of where people choose to live.

    AND NOT BECAUSE THOSE WHO LIVE CLOSE TO THE CENTRE ARE MORE DESERVING BUT BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE INVESTMENT CAN HAVE THE GREATEST PAYBACK FOR ALL.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    You are really failing to grasp what we are on about here in totality. I mean you're just not getting it.


    People who live in a bubble very often don't get it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    jmayo wrote:
    BTW to support a doctor and butcher then you must have a sizable population in the village's hinterland.


    350 includes hinterland, figure from the last census. Doctor sits on Tuesday and Friday. Don't really know what you're trying to prove here?

    Post offices, shops, butcher's etc are supported by the people who live in the villages using them.

    It always makes me laugh when the post office argument comes up most often by people who haven't been in one in a year.

    People living in villages and towns are what keeps the local economy going, not the guys living in the one offs who just drive into a large town and never go into the local shop or post office.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    I am fortunate enough to be from a village next to a very small town where one woman has basically made it her crusade to reinvigorate the town centre. She has had amazing success. Thankfully the residents of my village are now learning from it. Realising that you need to have a functioning core, and that this means investment in the centre, not spread out to the farthest reaches of where people choose to live.


    That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The more people living close to the village or town is what will SAVE rural Ireland. Create a vibrancy in your own village.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    People seem to think this is an urban vs rural argument when it's really not. There are plenty of rural people who agree with centering things.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,348 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    pilly wrote: »
    Not when their choice costs others no.

    But your choice is also costing others as you live in a small village.
    Taking the economies of scale, if you moved to an even bigger town then you probably would save the state money.

    If you take this to it's logical conclusion then everyone should live in a city and in the heart of that city.

    Also if you start looking at the cost of everything and the value of nothing, you will soon come to a conclusion that no money should be spent in areas like Jobstown or Southill, that no money should be spent on promoting Irish language TV, no money should be spent on RTE's national symphony orchestra, etc, etc.

    Where do you stop?
    Do you stop aiding the old, the sick, the infirmed because after all they are economically unviable and a drain on the state, i.e the ones contributing ?

    And make no mistake there are people with some of those views.
    And I bet you have some of them right here posting.

    I live in the country.
    I don't expect the same services as someone living in the heart of a town or city.
    I don't expect street lighting, footpaths, or indeed the same broadband service that those in a city can get.
    I think it is ridiculous to expect fibre to the home.

    I expect that if I was in an accident or got ill that it would take time to get an ambulance to me, but I don't think I should have to wait hours because the nearest big hospital have ambulances tied up because they haven't the beds for the population of the area they serve or because they haven't enough ambulances for the population be they in towns or rural.

    BTW a big problem with our hospitals isn't down to geographical hinterlands, but the fact that they have less beds now than they did when we had half the population.

    I do expect some form of adequate policing and get this the criminal that breaks into my property or attacks me as sure as sh** will break into a property or attack a person in a town some day as well.
    Criminals tend to be equal opportunities individuals when it suits.

    I expect the local road to be in some form of decent repair and so probably do the townies and city types that use it of a weekend.

    I pay for more fuel because I drive more, I probably pay for more car maintenance and thus help keep my mechanic in employment and add to his tax returns.

    Yes I am connected to a disparate electricity network, but those lines would have to be left in place to service farms in the area.

    I pay for my own water and sewage and it is in my own damn interest not to have shyte getting into local water sources, despite what some numpties may think of rural dwellers.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    Some of the arguments make no sense though, for example it just as easy for an ambulance to drive out from a city hospital to a one of house as it is to a town. Espeically now with eircodes it makes everyhouse very easy to find.


    It's really not just as easy. We all know there are houses 30 minutes from anywhere up dangerous narrow roads that can be frequently inaccessible in bad weather.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    pilly wrote: »
    That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The more people living close to the village or town is what will SAVE rural Ireland. Create a vibrancy in your own village.

    This is the point most of us are trying to make but certain posters are ignoring sense.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ pilly


    jmayo wrote:
    But your choice is also costing others as you live in a small village. Taking the economies of scale, if you moved to an even bigger town then you probably would save the state money.

    jmayo wrote:
    But your choice is also costing others as you live in a small village. Taking the economies of scale, if you moved to an even bigger town then you probably would save the state money.

    jmayo wrote:
    Also if you start looking at the cost of everything and the value of nothing, you will soon come to a conclusion that no money should be spent in areas like Jobstown or Southill, that no money should be spent on promoting Irish language TV, no money should be spent on RTE's national symphony orchestra, etc, etc.


    You see you're also failing to grasp that there's a middle ground. It's not urban or rural, it's about grouping people together into communities.

    Things like language and music benefit society as a whole. A one off house in the country doesn't. A farm does, I've already agreed that point. But farms should be the only ones. Not sure why jobstown comes into the argument?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,778 ✭✭✭✭ Juniper Black Pinprick


    pilly wrote: »
    350 includes hinterland, figure from the last census. Doctor sits on Tuesday and Friday. Don't really know what you're trying to prove here?

    Post offices, shops, butcher's etc are supported by the people who live in the villages using them.

    It always makes me laugh when the post office argument comes up most often by people who haven't been in one in a year.

    People living in villages and towns are what keeps the local economy going, not the guys living in the one offs who just drive into a large town and never go into the local shop or post office.

    You are kidding yourself if you think that people living in a village or smal town are any less likely to drive to the closest big shopping town to do their main shopping while on the other hand thinking a person living a few miles outside the town will not go to the local town for bits and pieces during the week.

    We go to our local town for the hardware store (a lot spent there), milk and the paper etc, the bank amd credit union the pub and the church but we don't do much food shopping there as you would be robbed doing your weekly shop there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,623 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    Looking forward to this plan being released to see how the NW fares!

    It appears you could draw a line across the country from Dublin, and everything above that is forgotten.


  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭✭ Mick ah


    While we're talking about bang for buck. Got a newsletter in the door from a local councillor.
    It cost €125k to resurface not even 1km of road that runs through the part of Dublin I'm from.

    That is insane. No one thinks about the cost of road maintenance in this country. Especially our councils. I reckon it's because maintenance money comes from central government.

    Honestly, and I say this as a citizen of this country, not a Dub, we should focus on promoting living closer together. It's possible to provide a nice living environment and good homes (not necessarily houses) while having people live densely enough for public transport too be viable.

    If we can change mindsets and get more people out of their cars we can invest the money in other things.

    At the moment instead we have massive amounts of public money being used on roads and massive amounts of private money on cars and fuel. Imagine if that €60 a week you spend on diesel was spent locally instead. How much more prosperous would we be!

    And yes, Dublin planners have a lot to answer for. And we should be doing better! But one off housing is terrible financially and environmentally.

    The answer isn't simple, and it's emotive for a lot of people, but we need to talk rationally about what sort of society we want and how it should be financed.



    Personally, I feel that if councils had to raise (and could raise) their own taxes and had to pay for services out of them, then we'd already have seen an end to one off houses, because unless the occupiers pay for everything, they wouldn't be viable to service.
    I'm not advocating a change to the funding model, I'm just using it to make a point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,396 ✭✭✭ John_Rambo


    Another one of your condesending nonsense filled posts directed at me, full of guess work and claimed "facts"

    That's a bit pot/kettle from the master of condescend! You're calling peoples (real, and not imagined) homes pokey on this thread! And, regarding the facts...

    You openly admit you're going to inherit the farm on boards.ie because you're the oldest son and your sisters may get a bit of land.

    You tell us on boards.ie that your "home house" is in Galway.

    Your house with multiple garages, server rooms, walk in wardrobes etc.. doesn't actually exist outside of your mind. You told us that in this thread on boards.ie, you don't even have planning permission for it. (see on this thread you're huge post describing exactly how you're going to build your house, how bit it will be, how many rooms it will have etc...)

    So, unless the facts you furnished are another figment of your active imagination you'll find I'm pretty much correct.
    Mick ah wrote: »
    Full disclosure. I'm against one of houses (most of the time). I'm pro town/village/city. Whatever helps create communities and car dependency.

    However you are right. If the man is actually going to farm then he should be allowed build on the land to facilitate doing business.

    However, why not make it so that one has to build right beside your parents house, or else attach to it.
    The object here is to facilitate individuals running a farm etc. Not to allow them to abuse local needs planning.

    Yeah, but sure it's the most abused planning law in the country and there is issues with elderly farmers avoiding succession plans and working in to their seventies and eighties which leaves a lot of forty and fifty year old bachelors "minding the folks"... basically living with and working for their dad and having little or no say in the running of the farm.

    It's a tough one, open to abuse along with a very very strong sense of entitlement to "do what you want on your land" without a thought for the environment or the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭ fionnsci


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Looking forward to this plan being released to see how the NW fares!

    It appears you could draw a line across the country from Dublin, and everything above that is forgotten.

    Makes sense given that the 26 counties' main urban centres are all below that line. The "northwest" argument is over-done, it's strikes me as a little arbitrary. If Galway was 100km further north, it'd get the same funding. If Sligo was 100km further south, it'd get the same funding.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭ Consonata


    We go to our local town for the hardware store (a lot spent there), milk and the paper etc, the bank amd credit union the pub and the church but we don't do much food shopping there as you would be robbed doing your weekly shop there.


    You'd be robbed because not many people shop there due to so many people driving to large urban centres when they have the option, rather than walking within communities, because so many people are living in one off accomodation.

    I'm surprised the issue of small schools has not been brought up here yet actually, because from my view that seems to be one of the most costly things that has arisen from one off housing.

    There are 379 primary schools with 2 teachers or less in the country. 379 schools which need:
    - separate boards of management,
    - funding for building repair,
    - heating,
    - electricity
    - separate bus routes etc.

    It is one of the biggest wastes in our education budget and it is directly connected to people living in sparse communities and demanding that a school should be behind every cut stone wall in the west of Ireland


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