Ionity charging network

unkel · 07-02-2018 12:32am #1

Some good news at last. 9 charging locations with 6 chargers per location. All of them 150kW and presumably upgradable to 350kW. Looks like locations near all the main cities, a bit thin in the midlands though where most economy EVs like Leaf 2018, eGolf and Ioniq require one charge to go from say Dublin to Cork. Hopefully the first ones will be installed sooner rather than later.

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Linky

07-02-2018 8:50am

Still not sure if they support CCS only.

ted1 · 07-02-2018 8:59am

Intresting to see the concentration in Paris compared to Berlin especially as there mostly German companies.

KCross · 07-02-2018 12:38pm

samih wrote: »

Still not sure if they support CCS only.

Previous reports from the manufacturers said it was CCS only
https://electrek.co/2017/11/03/ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-network-unveiled-by-bmw-mercedes-ford-volkswagen/

The manufacturers backing this are all CCS users so it would be a major surprise if they added Chademo (why would they?)... its almost certainly CCS only.

The long term battle for EV sales is as much likely to be won and lost on the supporting charge network as the cars themselves.

- Tesla have their network
- The Germans will have Ionity
- Chademo will suffer beyond 2020 if Nissan don't pump money into the charging network.... although the Government backed rapids should support Chademo so that will keep it alive here.

However, I don't believe that Ionity map until I see chargers on the ground. Do they even have planning applications in? Where exactly are those red dots located in Ireland, does anyone know?

Or is it just someone in Germany with a map on the board sticking pins in it?

KCross · 07-02-2018 12:43pm

One of Ionity's key partners for rolling out these chargers is a company called Circle K. They own Topaz!

So, its likely that the Ireland Ionity chargers will be in Topaz garages.

Some snippets from this press release..
http://www.ionity.eu/assets/20171127-ionity-en.pdf

"IONITY uses the European charging standard “Combined Charging System” (CCS)"

"By teaming up with Circle K in Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden, IONITY will be able to forge ahead with the construction of its fast charging network in Northern Europe."

slicedpanman · 07-02-2018 2:29pm

Presumably they will still need planning permission for the charging stations - but they should/could at least have the site part sorted with the right Topaz filling stations

Topaz Ireland sites If you expand the "more filters" and choose "Electric Vehicles" they've already got 4 (presumably SCPs) on the go; Cork, Galway, Dublin, Ashbourne
I'd guess that the plan would be to expand those sites and add 1 more in Limerick and Waterford
Update: maybe not - zoomed in on those existing locations they are not best positioned for access in/out of the cities in question

KCross · 07-02-2018 2:48pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

Topaz Ireland sites If you expand the "more filters" and choose "Electric Vehicles" they've already got 4 (presumably SCPs) on the go; Cork, Galway, Dublin, Ashbourne
I'd guess that the plan would be to expand those sites and add 1 more in Limerick and Waterford
Update: maybe not - zoomed in on those existing locations they are not best positioned for access in/out of the cities in question

The chargers in the Cork Topaz stations are rapids.

They could add more rapids to those stations but they are not in the best locations.

Shefwedfan · 07-02-2018 4:09pm

One of the reasons I would stay with VW etc. I would guess like Tesla other vendors outside the group will not be able to charge....

This is music to the governments ears, more of a reason they dont have to care about the current network....make it someone elses problem....

Shefwedfan · 07-02-2018 4:10pm

Must be noted this is just phase 1 of rollout....

cros13 · 07-02-2018 6:50pm

Shefwedfan wrote:

One of the reasons I would stay with VW etc. I would guess like Tesla other vendors outside the group will not be able to charge....

These will be open access and Tesla will have access as well.

liamog · 07-02-2018 6:59pm

cros13 wrote: »

These will be open access and Tesla will have access as well.

Open access to all CCS vehicles, the CCS spec does not allow adapters, did anyone else notice the charging port on the Model 3 has alot of extra space ðŸ˜‰

Jeditraining1 · 09-02-2018 9:55am

This has been touted for a while. Lets just hope there are certain group of people who can keep their noses out of it and let them get on with it.

liamog · 09-02-2018 11:42am

I'm happy that CircleK are involved.

When they purchased Topaz they made the statement

It has an extensive and attractive convenience and fuel network, with good locations, quality forecourts and stores, an excellent food offering and very professional teams.

Their priority is retailing in convenience stores and food counters, they almost see fuel dispensation as a loss leader.

jhegarty · 09-02-2018 1:23pm

Any information on the pricing using these ?

unkel · 09-02-2018 2:48pm

I haven't seen any, but tbh, I don't really care. If I had to pay triple the normal full day time retail rates on the few occasions that I need a quick and reliable charge on my travels across the country with the full family on board, I'd be happy to pay it. And from what liamog states, the CirkleK business model is based on high margin shop offerings. Knowing my family, they'd all want a €3 hot chocolat or cappucino every time we charge, so I'll gladly contribute there too

A triple domestic rate of €13c/kWh would be €40c/kWh. A charge to bring Ioniq from 15% to 85% would cost less than €8. And if the car really can take 100kW, then it would take just 12 minutes. Happy days.

Conba · 09-02-2018 3:07pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

If you expand the "more filters" and choose "Electric Vehicles" they've already got 4

Just wondering why Obama Plaza disappears when you turn on the EV filter. It's got a charger hasn't it?

KCross · 09-02-2018 3:56pm

Conba wrote: »

Just wondering why Obama Plaza disappears when you turn on the EV filter. It's got a charger hasn't it?

Only a slow Tye-2 AC charger, I think.
No rapid.

09-02-2018 9:40pm

Still no one to put a charger on the M9 leaving still 0 CCS from Naas to Waterford.

unkel · 09-02-2018 9:45pm

But when you get there, you can have a lovely picnic with great views of the countryside and the sea. Not.

ei9go · 10-02-2018 9:52am

unkel wrote: »

But when you get there, you can have a lovely picnic with great views of the countryside and the sea. Not.

Picnic bench is gone

Stealthirl · 11-02-2018 1:39am

My bet for the Dublin one would be the one on the Naas Rd where the
McDonalds/Honda garage is outbound

thierry14 · 11-02-2018 11:15am

20c a kWh would be reasonable

I would be happy to pay that for a reliable service

Hope it's not free

Would be a disaster

If Topaz had even one 350kw charger @ 20c, at every service station in the country it would go along way to a great network

Take out one set of pumps

Should be law

Dglflyer · 11-02-2018 1:01pm

Speaking of Charging networks , I lost the plot with ESB last night, Enroute Dublin Clare , stopped at the M3 Midway complex late at night. Charger was out. ( Map showed nothing )

Every time I call ESB I like to be professional with the support staff as they are just doing a job ,

But this time I was told , that I should not complain because it was free, and that the was not to be relied upon.

So I am guessing we have a Potemkin Nationwide Charging network, something we turn on when the relatives are visiting from abroad

I am sure this has been well debated in the past, but is this impasse going to change anytime soon ?

KellyXX · 11-02-2018 1:06pm

There should be at least two FCP chargers at each location, and no garage given planning permission unless installing FCP. The problem now seems to be queuing.

thierry14 · 11-02-2018 1:52pm

KellyXX wrote: »

There should be at least two FCP chargers at each location, and no garage given planning permission unless installing FCP. The problem now seems to be queuing.

Any new build should be regulation alright

That would take a government with balls and brains, which we don't have.

Was shocked to see brand new Maxols in D15 recently and no charges

Wtf like

2018

DrPhilG · 11-02-2018 2:55pm

Dglflyer wrote: »

But this time I was told , that I should not complain because it was free, and that the was not to be relied upon.

LOL, they actually said that???

Shefwedfan · 11-02-2018 3:11pm

Dglflyer wrote: »

Speaking of Charging networks , I lost the plot with ESB last night, Enroute Dublin Clare , stopped at the M3 Midway complex late at night. Charger was out. ( Map showed nothing )

Every time I call ESB I like to be professional with the support staff as they are just doing a job ,

But this time I was told , that I should not complain because it was free, and that the was not to be relied upon.

So I am guessing we have a Potemkin Nationwide Charging network, something we turn on when the relatives are visiting from abroad

I am sure this has been well debated in the past, but is this impasse going to change anytime soon ?

Kind of sounds similar to my brother ringing AIB once about them messing up something, the girl on other end of phone informed him that he was n tracker mortgage that was costing the bank money so he shouldn't be complaining

Casati · 11-02-2018 4:47pm

thierry14 wrote: »

Any new build should be regulation alright

That would take a government with balls and brains, which we don't have.

Was shocked to see brand new Maxols in D15 recently and no charges

Wtf like

2018

EV sales for Jan 2018 are down on 2017. Any sane garage operator will only install ev stations if they make money out of them, so if the demand isn’t there why will they install them?? Your taking about private business operators here

Honestly I can’t see any of these stations charging as little as 20 cent per unit ether , my guess it will be a min charge of 10 or 20 euro required in order for them to cover their costs never mind make the gross profit equal to what they make at each petrol/ diesel pump

Water John · 11-02-2018 5:05pm

Well if you go to 350kw X 6, we are talking about a 2/3Mw connection.
This is a 20Kv line with a transformer etc. That is before you install the local hardware.
Suggest sending that application to the ESB and see the quote. Serious investment.

liamog · 11-02-2018 6:09pm

Casati wrote: »

EV sales for Jan 2018 are down on 2017. Any sane garage operator will only install ev stations if they make money out of them, so if the demand isn’t there why will they install them?? Your taking about private business operators here

Honestly I can’t see any of these stations charging as little as 20 cent per unit ether , my guess it will be a min charge of 10 or 20 euro required in order for them to cover their costs never mind make the gross profit equal to what they make at each petrol/ diesel pump

You basically just want to cover the operating costs on the fuel dispenser. Petrol and Diesel are said to have around 1c or 2c profit per litre. The money is in the convenience store.

Newspapers have a similar model, there is almost zero profit in retailing newspapers. The concept is called a loss leader. EV charging is actually better than fossil fuels. What you lose on the electricity is likely to be made up on the coffee and muffin you eat whilst waiting for the charge.

Casati · 11-02-2018 10:59pm

liamog wrote: »

You basically just want to cover the operating costs on the fuel dispenser. Petrol and Diesel are said to have around 1c or 2c profit per litre. The money is in the convenience store.

Newspapers have a similar model, there is almost zero profit in retailing newspapers. The concept is called a loss leader. EV charging is actually better than fossil fuels. What you lose on the electricity is likely to be made up on the coffee and muffin you eat whilst waiting for the charge.

I don’t agree they make the money in the shop, but they can’t afford to lose whatever profit they make on the forecourt.

Eg A petrol station operator will need to cover their costs. Motorway stations always seem to be 2/3 cent dearer than the cheapest stations in a locality so this might mean their profit is 4 cent per litre rather than the 1 or 2 cent. 50 litres per fill-up means 2 euro in profit.

A petrol or diesel fill will likely take 10% if the time of any fast ev charger so the station would need 10 times the profit per vehicle or 20 euro in profit per Ev to match the profit?

Water John · 11-02-2018 11:02pm

Its the coffee machine that makes the money.

liamog · 11-02-2018 11:07pm

Casati wrote: »

I don’t agree they make the money in the shop, but they can’t afford to lose whatever profit they make on the forecourt.

Eg A petrol station operator will need to cover their costs. Motorway stations always seem to be 2/3 cent dearer than the cheapest stations in a locality so this might mean their profit is 4 cent per litre rather than the 1 or 2 cent. 50 litres per fill-up means 2 euro in profit.

A petrol or diesel fill will likely take 10% if the time of any fast ev charger so the station would need 10 times the profit per vehicle or 20 euro in profit per Ev to match the profit?

The extra price at a service station covers the licensing cost for operating the station. They're not really making extra money on the fuel. They will however make much more money in the store. There is more profit in the black coffee they sell you than the 50l of fuel you pumped.

KCross · 19-04-2018 11:19pm

https://electrek.co/2018/04/19/ionity-first-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-station/

I wonder are they battery packs in the background or are they just the inverters?

ELM327 · 20-04-2018 7:44am

KCross wrote: »

https://electrek.co/2018/04/19/ionity-first-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-station/

I wonder are they battery packs in the background or are they just the inverters?

Those look like the chargers.
The same way that the tesla "superchargers" have a collection of white boxes, these are the actual "chargers".

20-04-2018 9:26am

We won't be getting 6 chargers though , not according to topaz anyway, we'll get 4 per site.

It will be pretty crap if the's load balancing, it would be pretty bad if a 100 Kw capable car was charging at 40-50 kw. No problem for current gen cars but still.

ELM327 · 20-04-2018 9:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

We won't be getting 6 chargers though , not according to topaz anyway, we'll get 4 per site.

It will be pretty crap if the's load balancing, it would be pretty bad if a 100 Kw capable car was charging at 40-50 kw. No problem for current gen cars but still.

The Tesla chargers are capable of 140kW, but the chargers share 2 plugs. So at an 8 stall supercharger there's only 4 actual chargers.

Has anyone any info from Ionity that confirms/denies the existence of a similar load balancing?

Even 4 per site at 350kW each that's 1400kW peak and that's going to be a super draw on the network and have massive MIC charges.

KCross · 20-04-2018 10:04am

ELM327 wrote: »

The Tesla chargers are capable of 140kW, but the chargers share 2 plugs. So at an 8 stall supercharger there's only 4 actual chargers.

Has anyone any info from Ionity that confirms/denies the existence of a similar load balancing?

Even 4 per site at 350kW each that's 1400kW peak and that's going to be a super draw on the network and have massive MIC charges.

Thats why I asked about batteries in the background. I dont think any grid will be able to deliver 350kW per charger and then have a bank of 8 of those. Its not going to happen without load sharing and battery backup..... its how Tesla are doing it.

In any case the initial Ionity rollout is all 175kW. There is no 350kW there. It just has the capability to be upgraded to 350kW.

grogi · 20-04-2018 10:06am

ELM327 wrote: »

The Tesla chargers are capable of 140kW, but the chargers share 2 plugs. So at an 8 stall supercharger there's only 4 actual chargers.

Has anyone any info from Ionity that confirms/denies the existence of a similar load balancing?

Even 4 per site at 350kW each that's 1400kW peak and that's going to be a super draw on the network and have massive MIC charges.

Wasn't tesla the company that also supplies batteries? If that ever becomes an issue, they can have a stationary 200 kWh pack at the site and use it to balance the load from the grid.

KCross · 20-04-2018 11:03am

I see some interesting commentary on the 350kW headline that Ionity keep using....

I am not sure why we call these 350 kW EVSE’s. Using the same kind of unobtainable ratings, the Tesla Superchargers could be called 500 volts * 370 amps = 185 kW. We don’t do that because the pack voltages are actually 400 volts. And the cars can actually pull 120 kW.

On the 350 kW EVSE’s, the standard calls for 350 amps. The top end rate a Mission E with 800 volt charging, assuming typical voltage peak is 250 kW. The issue is then cell chemistry with degradation and pack heat management. Porsche has talked about 220 kW in the past when connected to 800 volt charging.

Great progress if achievable without undue stress to the cells.

It is about time we sort out a consistent way to rate these EVSE’s.

I presume he is right with those figures. Is Ionity using a bit of marketing bluff here? Seems like it if a Mission E will max out at 250kW and thats from a super car with 800V packs (which us plebs wont see for many many years to come). Leaf's, Kona's etc will be on 400V for a while yet.

Anything upto 100kW will be considered good at the lower end of the market.

unkel · 20-04-2018 11:27am

The chargers might deliver 350kW after a firmware upgrade, but as you say no car can take that for the foreseeable

KCross wrote: »

Anything upto 100kW will be considered good at the lower end of the market.

2016 Ioniq can take 70kW. If any 2019 budget EV can take the full 150kW of the Ionity chargers, that would be wonderful, but I'd say that will be another year away.

KCross · 20-04-2018 12:01pm

unkel wrote: »

The chargers might deliver 350kW after a firmware upgrade, but as you say no car can take that for the foreseeable

Maybe. Doubling the power might require hardware too though. Adding battery packs, higher rated inverters etc. Maybe they have thought of all that up front and its just flip a switch to go from 175 to 350 but I doubt it somehow.

unkel wrote: »

2016 Ioniq can take 70kW. If any 2019 budget EV can take the full 150kW of the Ionity chargers, that would be wonderful, but I'd say that will be another year away.

What budget EV do you think will take 150kW in another year?

VW are quoting 30min charge times on their ID range for 2022 so they dont look like they are at 150kW and thats 2022 anyway. iPace, Kona and Niro are similar. I'd say 100kW will be the max they can manage (just an educated guess).

150kW would be sweet though. Plenty for this island tbh. 37kWh's in 15mins.... that will take you almost anywhere in the country.

Shefwedfan · 20-04-2018 12:24pm

Im not sure what the difference is, I know it will charge a little quicker but lets say you have a 64kW Kona....you should be able to do 300km+

So how many times in Ireland are you really going to need a fast charge from empty to full? So a 1 hour stop would not make a huge difference

liamog · 20-04-2018 12:58pm

If you recharge when you're at 20km left of range on a Kona (5%) to 80% you'd need 48kWh.
On a 50kW charger you'd need 1 hour, on a 80kW or more charge you'd need 36 mins, and would get you to 300km of range.
One rapid charge gives you 670km of range (100% to 5% 385km, 80% to 5% 285km)

I'm more interested in the fact that, charging faster increases the availability of the rapid chargers. The faster you charge, the more like the charger will be free when I arrive.

lafors · 20-04-2018 1:38pm

Do we actually know any definite locations for Ireland rather than pin drops on a small map?

Shefwedfan · 20-04-2018 7:29pm

lafors wrote: »

Do we actually know any definite locations for Ireland rather than pin drops on a small map?

Pins on maps....

20-04-2018 8:13pm

Last time I checked they were still finalising location negotiations.

4 sites of 4 chargers planned by next Summer, first to be commissioned by end of Summer or Summer.

I'll see if I can pry any more details out of Them.

ELM327 · 24-04-2018 7:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

Last time I checked they were still finalising location negotiations.

4 sites of 4 chargers planned by next Summer, first to be commissioned by end of Summer or Summer.

I'll see if I can pry any more details out of Them.

Ask them about the fact that Tesla recently joined them!

24-04-2018 6:52pm

Be nice if Tesla went CCS too.

liamog · 24-04-2018 8:28pm

There was always the rumour for Model 3 and we've already seen a Model S with the GB/T flap.

ELM327 · 25-04-2018 7:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Be nice if Tesla went CCS too.

They are a member of the CCS group and have now joined Ionity
I fully expect model 3 to be sold in Europe at least with CCS compatibility.
I know there currently are no adapters allowed but I can see Tesla going that route.

Alternatively as above re GBT standard in China, but if a new chargeport needs to be fitted it couldnt be retrofitted to existing model S/X cars.

Ionity charging network

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