Ionity charging network

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It is an obsolete charging standard.

Explain your definition of obsolete?
Its clearly not obsolete if its being actively developed as a standard and being actively deployed.

If Nissan abandon it then it will be obsolete. There are no signs they are abandoning it. Of course they might, but thats just a complete guess on your part rather than specific insight into Nissan's plans or the market.

unkel wrote: »

Personally I have no confidence in the public sector keeping the public charging network up with the increase in EV use. If I had a CHAdeMO car and needed regular public charging, I'd be worried for what the next few years would bring.

The last budget gave money for new rapids. If they have ChaDeMo heads on them then there will be absolutely nothing to worry about in relation to ChaDeMo cars being left with no charge network. If they support CCS only then that is very short sighted of the government and will likely setback EV uptake in this country for years to come as existing EV owners will be up in arms that they bought EV's and then were abandoned. I cant see that happening.

I asked already... why would any operator install a CCS only rapid instead of a dual head ChaDemo/CCS rapid? There is no reason other than Ionity because they are effectively the CCS group. Thats a once off.

As I said already, lets see what happens first before declaring the Leaf a dodgy buy based on your crystal ball of the future. Its scaremongering.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Its scaremongering.

That's what the Ioniq mafia do best*!

* - To be fair, Unkel is far from the worst of them.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

That's what the Ioniq mafia do best*!

* - To be fair, Unkel is far from the worst of them.

I assume that is directed at me from your earlier comments but I'm actually neutral on the CCS/Chademo issue. I don't actually like the CCS idea as there's CCS1 and CCS2 whereas chademo is the same across the globe.


I think whatever it is there should be a global standard and lets just all use that. Don't care if it's CCS (either 1 or 2 not both) or chademo or feckin type 3c :P

unkel wrote: »

Agreed, Nissan mightn't change to CCS if they are not forced, but the Leaf already is the only EV you can buy in this country with CHAdeMO. It is an obsolete charging standard.

Personally I have no confidence in the public sector keeping the public charging network up with the increase in EV use. If I had a CHAdeMO car and needed regular public charging, I'd be worried for what the next few years would bring.

I don't think it's obsolete quite yet, it is the most ubiquitous charger plug in most of the world, and most cars on the road are capable of using the chademo connector (a point worth noting that the two most common companies for EV, Nissan and Tesla, in terms of volume no one else comes close).


CCS would not be anywhere near chademo if it wasnt for the interference of regulation.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm actually neutral on the CCS/Chademo issue. I don't actually like the CCS idea as there's CCS1 and CCS2 whereas chademo is the same across the globe.


I think whatever it is there should be a global standard and lets just all use that. Don't care if it's CCS (either 1 or 2 not both) or chademo or feckin type 3c :P

That won't happen anyway. There will always be the US-Asian-Europe differences like we have for our normal appliance plugs (3-pin, 2-pin, square, round). It will be the same for EV charge plugs.

It would be great if they could come together and agree a standard that allowed backward compatibility (i.e. an adaptor to fit "old" cars) that also supported backend billing with no need for cards... like Tesla do.

Too much rivalry I think for it to happen though.

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't think it's obsolete quite yet, it is the most ubiquitous charger plug in most of the world, and most cars on the road are capable of using the chademo connector (a point worth noting that the two most common companies for EV, Nissan and Tesla, in terms of volume no one else comes close).


CCS would not be anywhere near chademo if it wasnt for the interference of regulation.

German automakers have huge influence in Europe. They just didn't want to bow to Japan... understandable I guess.

I still think they can exist side by side no problem. It doesn't have to be a one or the other outcome.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

That won't happen anyway. There will always be the US-Asian-Europe differences like we have for our normal appliance plugs (3-pin, 2-pin, square, round). It will be the same for EV charge plugs.

It would be great if they could come together and agree a standard that allowed backward compatibility (i.e. an adaptor to fit "old" cars) that also supported backend billing with no need for cards... like Tesla do.

Too much rivalry I think for it to happen though.

Even for DC quick charging? Chademo works globally now. IMO CCS1/CCS2 is a backwards step.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The last budget gave money for new rapids. If they have ChaDeMo heads on them then there will be absolutely nothing to worry about in relation to ChaDeMo cars being left with no charge network.

Of course. I never said anybody would take out the existing public CHAdeMO chargers! All new public chargers will have CHAdeMO no doubt.

But how many new public fast chargers will there be? And will any of them have the capability of charging multiple cars at the same time? That is where my worry would be. If only one car can charge at the time and there is a queue of cars waiting. Maybe I am overly pessimistic here, maybe most fast chargers are nowhere near as busy as my local one in Lucan (which is the busiest fast charger in the country). But I see big issues ahead.

And no, none of us can foresee the future. But I very much doubt any private company will install a network of CHAdeMO chargers.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Explain your definition of obsolete?

Obsolete doesn't mean the network will disappear overnight. It means it is out of date, not the way forward. Not the chosen standard. In practical terms here in Ireland. That no private company will install a network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland and the current public system is already inadequate. I've no doubt there will still be working CHAdeMO chargers in this country in 10 years time though

n97 mini

I think the bigger issue is the Type-1 vs Type-2 AC connectors. I visit the US a lot and as Type-1 is virtually universal (even the BMW i3 comes with a Type-1 combo socket), a lot of SCPs have tethered Type-1 cables. Takes pressure off Rapids as people who don't have and AC cable in their boot, or don't have a cable at all (a lot of PHEVs) are more inclined to make use of SCPs.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

I think the bigger issue is the Type-1 vs Type-2 AC connectors. I visit the US a lot and as Type-1 is virtually universal (even the BMW i3 comes with a Type-1 combo socket), a lot of SCPs have tethered Type-1 cables. Takes pressure off Rapids as people who don't have and AC cable in their boot, or don't have a cable at all (a lot of PHEVs) are more inclined to make use of SCPs.

The US AC setup is actually better, because there are no other types except for type1, so there's no need for untethered units. More convenient.


But they are still having the same issues with CCS1 vs Chademo as we have with CCS2 vs chademo. AU/NZ are worse as they have CCS1 vs CCS2 vs Chademo :eek::eek:

n97 mini

Public SCP on Main St., Salt Lake City.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

The US AC setup is actually better, because there are no other types except for type1, so there's no need for untethered units. More convenient.


But they are still having the same issues with CCS1 vs Chademo as we have with CCS2 vs chademo. AU/NZ are worse as they have CCS1 vs CCS2 vs Chademo :eek::eek:

Type 1's lack of support for 3 phase charging is the only downside. If they hadn't gone for tethered chargers, then CCS with type 2 could of been a global standard, using type1 to type2 cables similar to the type 2 to type 1 that original leafs used in Europe.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Of course. I never said anybody would take out the existing public CHAdeMO chargers! All new public chargers will have CHAdeMO no doubt.

Well, you said the existing chargers would die and not be replaced and ChaDemo was obsolete! Whats the difference?!

unkel wrote: »

But how many new public fast chargers will there be?

No idea. They've been given millions extra this year but I don't know how much of it is for rapids.

Ionity is supposedly adding 9 sites with 6 per site so ~60 chargers.
We currently have ~70 rapids in the country under eCars just that they are all single point of failure and in bad locations.

Lets hope they don't make that mistake again. eCars and the government have been given the feedback that this is one of the biggest issues so hopefully the new eTender will be better utilised but only time will tell.

unkel wrote: »

... will any of them have the capability of charging multiple cars at the same time? That is where my worry would be. If only one car can charge at the time and there is a queue of cars waiting. Maybe I am overly pessimistic here, maybe most fast chargers are nowhere near as busy as my local one in Lucan (which is the busiest fast charger in the country). But I see big issues ahead.

I absolutely share those concerns but thats an entirely different argument to "ChaDeMo is obsolete".

Your paragraph above is describing infrastructure issues (queuing, slow charging Leaf's, bad locations etc). That has nothing to do with ChaDeMo as a standard.

unkel wrote: »

And no, none of us can foresee the future. But I very much doubt any private company will install a network of CHAdeMO chargers.

No one would install ChaDeMo only chargers, of course. Would you agree they would be mad not install dual head units though?

DrPhilG

McGiver wrote: »

Also next year's Leaf...

As things stand there is no "next year's Leaf".

We have no idea when Nissan will bring out their 60kWh car.

Nor what fault it will have...

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

As things stand there is no "next year's Leaf".

We have no idea when Nissan will bring out their 60kWh car.

Nor what fault it will have...

Nissan Ireland told us it would be out in Q3 2019 for test drives. Confirmed 60kWh and 3 phase AC support, and active thermal management.


Only time will tell if they are being truthful.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Type 1's lack of support for 3 phase charging is the only downside. If they hadn't gone for tethered chargers, then CCS with type 2 could of been a global standard, using type1 to type2 cables similar to the type 2 to type 1 that original leafs used in Europe.

True. This is why you see 40a or even 80a domestic charging stations, they need to raise the amperage as there is no 3phase supply or even if there was it is not supported in type1.


Tethered type2 for the win, let the type 1 cars buy an adapter. in 5 years there will be very few type 1 cars in Europe. Is it possible to buy a type 1 car new now, was the leaf the last bastion of type 1?

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Well, you said the existing chargers would die and not be replaced and ChaDemo was obsolete! Whats the difference?!

No you are misquoting me there. I said the existing Nissan dealer chargers won't be replaced. There is already signs of this, I believe some Nissan CHAdeMO chargers are no longer working

This is what I posted:

unkel wrote: »

I expect Nissan Ireland to do nothing. I'd go one step further: I expect many / most / all of the local Nissan dealer FCP to die out over time, not to be repaired and not to be replaced with new faster ones.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

No you are misquoting me there. I said the existing Nissan dealer chargers won't be replaced. There is already signs of this, I believe some Nissan CHAdeMO chargers are no longer working

This is what I posted:

I know what you posted. You're giving the general impression that ChaDeMo chargers are going to wither away and leave folks with unusable cars. Thats what I would think you are saying if I was a lurker on the forum.

You have however subsequently said "All new public chargers will have CHAdeMO no doubt."..... so I think we are on the same page now.

If you throw in a one liner to a noob on the forum that says "ChaDeMo is obsolete" what impression do you think you are leaving them with? I'm just responding to that element of your language because I think its inaccurate to say obsolete and turning people away from a car that is perfectly fit for purpose.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

If you throw in a one liner to a noob on the forum that says "ChaDeMo is obsolete" what impression do you think you are leaving them with?

What do you think that obsolete means? It doesn't mean it is no longer here, it just means the EU has chosen another charging standard (CCS) going forward. the moment that decision was made meant CHAdeMO was by definition obsolete

KCross wrote: »

I know what you posted. You're giving the general impression that ChaDeMo chargers are going to wither away and leave folks with unusable cars.

That's not what I said at all. If it gave you that impression, you mustn't have read properly what I said.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

What do you think that obsolete means? It doesn't mean it is no longer here, it just means the EU has chosen another charging standard (CCS) going forward. the moment that decision was made meant CHAdeMO was by definition obsolete

Obsolete to me means its no longer being developed, deployed/sold, supported. None of those are true, yet, at least.

The EU has adopted CCS as its preferred standard but to my knowledge that doesn't mean that every new car has to support CCS.

Correct me if Im wrong but I think whats in EU Law is that all new rapids have to support CCS. Nothing wrong with them having two cables (ChaDeMo and CCS) like they do today.

The whole thing will hinge on what Nissan decide to do. If the next gen Leaf is CCS then ChaDeMo is dead in Europe. That's far from certain though just because CCS is the EU's preferred standard.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. If it gave you that impression, you mustn't have read properly what I said.

Here are some snipetts of what you said taken from a few posts....

I expect many / most / all of the local Nissan dealer FCP to die out over time, not to be repaired and not to be replaced with new faster ones. Nissan EVs in Ireland will all have CCS only charging from the next generation.


It is an obsolete charging standard.

If I had a CHAdeMO car and needed regular public charging, I'd be worried for what the next few years would bring.


But I very much doubt any private company will install a network of CHAdeMO chargers.

That no private company will install a network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland

What impression do you think those posts convey to a noob about buying a Leaf?

If I've misinterpreted your opinion then fine but "obsolete" has specific connotations that you are likely to avoid when you are spending €30k hence why I think its giving a bad impression of the Leaf!

Us "old timers" understand it but noob's lurking on the forum trying to decide what EV to buy aren't going to be encouraged by your "obsolete" comments on ChaDeMo to buy a Leaf, imo.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

What impression do you think those posts convey to a noob about buying a Leaf?

That CHAdeMO in Ireland is obsolete?

I get your point that someone who has just bought a brand new, newly released car doesn't like the sound of that word. Just to make it very clear for anyone who has or anyone who is considering buying a Leaf: All the public fast chargers in Ireland have CHAdeMO and when they are broken, they will be fixed. Also any new public fast chargers will have CHAdeMO fast charging. We can be almost certain about this. This is objective.

Still objective: For those people new to EVs: you can only fast charge 1 car at a time at all our public chargers even though many of them have 3 cables. If there is someone ahead of you (just one car) who decides they want to charge for 90 minutes, there is nothing you can do but wait or politely ask if he is kind enough to let you charge.

What is subjective (my personal opinion) is this. What I do fear is that the already congested public fast charging network will get worse over the next few years. A lot more EVs on the road, and I can't see any investments in multibay chargers coming.

KCross

Fair enough.
The only investment in rapids in Ireland in the foreseeable future, outside of Ionity, is the money that the govt have announced and eCars have sent tenders out for. Lets hope they spend it more wisely than heretofore.

Better locations, Multiple chargers in each location and dual headed units. I'm not overly optimistic they will spend wisely either.

Unfortunately we already know they will only be 50kW max which is a disappointment.

Orebro

These new Ionity locations will have a massive influence over the my next EV - and it's going to have to be a CCS car. Being able to take a long journey in confidence like the Cork Dublin trip with the family and utilise a well maintained, multple stall charging site that's is capable of feeding the car 70kw+, as opposed to the decrepit public charging infrastructure with long queues and faulty equipment makes it a no brainer.

unkel

Yeah that's pretty much my point Orebro. When I bought my car in January of last year I didn't even think about the public charging system. Sure it was grand there were so few EVs and they took only about 20 minutes to charge. Still the same last summer, but this summer I fear it already. And there are a lot of L40s being sold (a great thing in general, don't get me wrong) and they will cause public charging problems. Perhaps we can alleviate / delay these problems by bringing in charging for charging quickly. Not sure if the government has the appetite to do so though. It would look un-green (and not helping with our emissions problem)

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Nissan Ireland told us it would be out in Q3 2019 for test drives. Confirmed 60kWh and 3 phase AC support, and active thermal management.


Only time will tell if they are being truthful.

Even if it is out in Q3 for test drives, it will likely be 2020 before its on the road.

Maybe I'm being picky, but I've seen so many people here, Facebook and elsewhere talking about the 2019 60kWh Leaf as if it's a dead cert.

unkel

I agree with you Phil. Everyone promises the L60 and the Tesla Model 3 on the road in Ireland in 2019 but I'd say it will be 2020 for both.

Orebro

If L60 is chademo then I'd still debate whether I could take the thing on long journey like holidays with the family on board, again due to the public network. I'd prefer a lower capacity CCS car to take advantage of a proper Ionity network and have a stress free existence.

unkel

I'd say the L60 will be CCS

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

I'd say the L60 will be CCS

I certainly hope so, if for no other reason than not to be stuck queuing for the 50kw chargers in Ireland.

Edit: and it will surely have an impact on sales of L60 in Ireland when Ionity comes on stream, when potential purchasers discover they wouldn't be able to use the multiple commercial chargers on the motorways.

liamog

If Nissan were really smart they'd make the L60 CHAdeMO plus CCS, you'd have the best of both worlds.