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Trouble on Tory Island...

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12357…26

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    #122
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    JohnBoy26 wrote: »
    Well it's a public forum so im free to post if I wish, and I do know what im talking about. So if a passager vessel has to be of a much higher standard than a fishing vessel and this new ferry has completed a survey then what's the problem?

    Instead of having a go why don't you back up your baseless arguments?

    If you actually knew what you were talking about, and the seas involved, you would not have claimed that fishing and passenger vessels are equivalent.

    To put it in terms you might understand, it's bit like claiming if a old taxi qualifies as an SPSV what's the problem with it winning a lucrative public tender for long distance bus service.


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    #123
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Firstly it's size, capacity and ability the first day it was made isn't suitable those waters and that type of ferry service

    Hmmm....quick google search tells me that the 'old' boat,which is now the new ferry seems to be significantly larger than the one they had...

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3455969/mmsi:250000111/imo:0/vessel:QUEEN_OF_ARAN

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3403944/mmsi:250029000/vessel:TORMORE

    Which would lead me to believe that means it has a larger capacity as well.
    Least I think it's a reasonable assumption that size and capacity are somewhat related.

    Soo...

    Tell me again what FACTS you have to support this boat would be inferior to the other one?

    Of course if it's your OPINION that's okay too.

    Me I'm looking for actual FACTS....do you have any?


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    #124
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,419 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    wexie wrote: »
    Hmmm....quick google search tells me that the 'old' boat,which is now the new ferry seems to be significantly larger than the one they had...

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3455969/mmsi:250000111/imo:0/vessel:QUEEN_OF_ARAN

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3403944/mmsi:250029000/vessel:TORMORE

    Which would lead me to believe that means it has a larger capacity as well.
    Least I think it's a reasonable assumption that size and capacity are somewhat related.

    Soo...

    Tell me again what FACTS you have to support this boat would be inferior to the other one?

    Of course if it's your OPINION that's okay too.

    Me I'm looking for actual FACTS....do you have any?


    Its only 3m longer. The main page is incorrect in stating it's 40m. Click on the vessel details and the actual length is 20m.
    Actually on another site its 47m long. Christ these clowns documenting vehicles can't even get their facts straight.
    Regardless the Queen of Aran looks like a right ****box compared to the other one which is slightly less even to my completely untrained eyes.
    Of course Ireland isn't known for people pulling a fast one in tenders whatsoever.


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    #125
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    wexie wrote: »
    Hmmm....quick google search tells me that the 'old' boat,which is now the new ferry seems to be significantly larger than the one they had...

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3455969/mmsi:250000111/imo:0/vessel:QUEEN_OF_ARAN

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3403944/mmsi:250029000/vessel:TORMORE

    Which would lead me to believe that means it has a larger capacity as well.
    Least I think it's a reasonable assumption that size and capacity are somewhat related.

    Soo...

    Tell me again what FACTS you have to support this boat would be inferior to the other one?

    Of course if it's your OPINION that's okay too.

    Me I'm looking for actual FACTS....do you have any?

    The Tormór was a purpose designed and built vessel for the route capable of negotiating the poor weather conditions often experienced but is 26 years old and now past it's best both capacity and ability wise for one of the roughest sea areas in our coast. This so called replacement is 42 years old, and not suitable in any way for the service either in ability or capacity and should never have won the lucrative tender, - you might be happy to see the taxpayer getting fleeced in this contract, but I'm not.

    The only defence here for this unsuitable vessel seems to be - as sure it's good enough for them muck savages


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    #126
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Blazer wrote: »
    Its only 3m longer. The main page is incorrect in stating it's 40m. Click on the vessel details and the actual length is 20m.

    Yeah I noticed that, still doesn't make much of an argument that it's smaller though does it?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing they shouldn't have a ferry fit for purpose. Just that I have yet to see any actual arguments this one isn't fit for purpose.


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    #127
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    This so called replacement is 47 years old and not suitable in any way for the service either in ability or capacity

    You have yet to supply any arguments as to why this would be the case other than the age....which as arguments go is pretty bloody flimsy.

    So do you have any?


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    #128
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,615 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    What should ideally happen is the government should provide the boats for the islands and have the private companies run them in the same way Transdev runs the Luas. The current short tendering period of about 5 years doesn't give much incentive for boat owners to purchase new vessels specifically designed for the islands they need to access only to be told at the end of the term that they lost the contract to another operator.

    O'Brien Shipping had the freight contract to the Aran Islands and built a specific boat for it called Oileain Arann, when they lost the contract the boat was eventually sold to an Icelandic company as without the subsidy wasn't viable, it was perhaps the best fully functional boat serving the islands off the coast in that it could deliver freight and passengers in comfort.

    Oileain Arann at Galway dock in 90's
    OileanArrain.jpg

    Now in Iceland
    showphoto.aspx?photoid=332996&size=

    This is current boat serving Aran Islands is Blath Na Mara, a Rolls Royce she ain't but only transports freight...
    showphoto.aspx?photoid=106870&size=


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    #129
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,419 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    This is the same for all walks of life.
    If you build something that's been built specifically for a purpose and then replace it with a generic part doing something not in its original parameters it tends not to go well.
    We're notorious in Ireland for replacing something with another generic thing that "shure it will do the job just as well".

    Lets say for instance this ship sunk in a storm. And it was later determined that this ship should never have been used for this crossing as it wasn't designed for it.
    Who would get the blame? The ferry operator or the Government who signed off on it..and who would face possible criminal convictions? No one--but the taxpayer could be on the hook for millions if lives were lost.
    If the original boat sank ?It would be the Ship operator on the hook as its a purpose built ship for this crossing.

    I'd still be interesting in getting more info on both as I haven't a clue about ships..


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    #130
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,419 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    very interesting about the tender.
    5 years is ridiculously short in terms and it should be 10 at a minimum.
    Oileann Arann seems to be a fine well built ship.


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    #131
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Blazer wrote: »
    I'd still be interesting in getting more info on both as I haven't a clue about ships..

    Exactly, doesn't seem to be much in the way of actual information in the argument (or any of the newspaper articles) beyond 'we don't like this one as much as the other one even though that needed updating as well'.

    Nothing with regards to capacity (freight or passengers) no longer being sufficient, why the one they had was no longer good enough? Just because it's now old?

    Maybe we should ask over in the maritime forum :o

    What I find odd is that if the islanders had any genuine concerns (too small, not safe, outdated etc. etc. ) I would have thought they'd mentioned it somewhere. But perhaps that's just bad reporting.


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    #132
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭Odelay


    Blazer wrote: »
    This is the same for all walks of life.
    If you build something that's been built specifically for a purpose and then replace it with a generic part doing something not in its original parameters it tends not to go well.
    We're notorious in Ireland for replacing something with another generic thing that "shure it will do the job just as well".

    Lets say for instance this ship sunk in a storm. And it was later determined that this ship should never have been used for this crossing as it wasn't designed for it.
    Who would get the blame? The ferry operator or the Government who signed off on it..and who would face possible criminal convictions? No one--but the taxpayer could be on the hook for millions if lives were lost.
    If the original boat sank ?It would be the Ship operator on the hook as its a purpose built ship for this crossing.

    I'd still be interesting in getting more info on both as I haven't a clue about ships..

    You can't just use any old ferry on a route. It must be certified for the route, this will detail the type of weather it can sail, how many passengers, if it can take cargo or not, where it can anchor/dock over night and if it can take passengers to that place.
    There are a lot of rules and regulations used in sea travel that use for generations. Never heard any of them mention the precise age a vessel becomes "clapped out".


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    #133
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Odelay wrote: »
    Never heard any of them mention the precise age a vessel becomes "clapped out".

    somewhere in between 20 odd and 40 odd I guess :D


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    #134
    Ajsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 698 ✭✭✭Ajsoprano


    wexie wrote: »
    somewhere in between 20 odd and 40 odd I guess :D

    What age is the captain?


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    #135
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Ajsoprano wrote: »
    What age is the captain?

    clapped out too


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    #136
    Ajsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 698 ✭✭✭Ajsoprano


    wexie wrote: »
    clapped out too

    I just hope he’s not older than the Aran islands captain


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    #137
    JohnBoy26
    Registered Users Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    If you actually knew what you were talking about, and the seas involved, you would not have claimed that fishing and passenger vessels are equivalent.

    To put it in terms you might understand, it's bit like claiming if a old taxi qualifies as an SPSV what's the problem with it winning a lucrative public tender for long distance bus service.

    I never said or claimed passenger vessels and fishing vessels were equivalent. My point was to do with the age of the vessel. Stop trying to twist things to suit your argument. And I do know the waters involved, I have fished in that area previously. The biggest issue up there is the sea swell and no ferry new or old is going to be going out in a bad swell no matter how well designed it is.

    Are you going to back up your claims of the ferry being worn out and unsafe.


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    #138
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    JohnBoy26 wrote: »
    I never said or claimed passenger vessels and fishing vessels were equivalent.
    JohnBoy26 wrote: »
    There is plenty fishing vessels still going strong that are as old, and even older than that ferry and they go through a lot more hardship than any passenger vessel.

    So which is it, should passengers ferrys be of a higher standard than old fishing vessels or not ?

    Why do you think it's a good idea to replace a 26 year ferry, purpose built for the route, with a 41 year old one that is not ?


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    #139
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So which is it, should passengers ferrys be of a higher standard than old fishing vessels or not ?

    Why do you think it's a good idea to replace a 26 year ferry, purpose built for the route, with a 41 year old one that is not ?

    No-one is going to take you remotely seriously when you a) can't back up your claims in any way and b) keep shifting the goalposts.

    What makes this vessel totally unsuitable and do you have anything to back up that assertion? That it's older than the vessel it's replacing is not on it's own any sort of evidence.

    I'm not saying it's the perfect vessel for the job - I've no idea frankly - but I've not seen any argument so far that doesn't ultimately amount to 'we don't like it'.


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    #140
    somefeen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    Ah the comparison with buses and taxis doesn't really work.
    Those are designed around safety features and older ones won't be as safe in a crash. You can't really add new safety features to an old car.

    Boats are more like buildings and houses. You dont knock down a house that's still structural sound just because its old. You add to it and refit it to meet modern standards.
    The hull of that boat might be ancient but I can nearly guarantee that's the only untouched and original bit of it.
    It wouldn't meet the regs otherwise. I don't recall there being any exceptions in those rules just because a boat is old?

    Imagine if these people thought about the average age of a bridge in this country


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    #141
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭Odelay


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So which is it, should passengers ferrys be of a higher standard than old fishing vessels or not ?

    Why do you think it's a good idea to replace a 26 year ferry, purpose built for the route, with a 41 year old one that is not ?

    There is no requirement to apply for the tender that a younger vessel can be used.
    There is a requirement that the vessel meets certain safety standards and has the necessary certificates.

    Can you please answer my questions above?


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    #142
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Odelay wrote: »
    There is no requirement to apply for the tender that a younger vessel can be used.

    Geez...it's nearly like...like....the age of the vessel doesn't actually matter as long as it meets all the other standards....:rolleyes:

    Who'da thunk it.

    Not Bob anyways


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    #143
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So which is it, should passengers ferrys be of a higher standard than old fishing vessels or not ?

    Why do you think it's a good idea to replace a 26 year ferry, purpose built for the route, with a 41 year old one that is not ?

    you keep referring to ''a higher standard '' could you explain what higher standards you are talking about
    both those vessels will have had plenty of rigorous surveys over the years and if their was any issues they would have been rectified . they ''could'' have been totally rebuilt over the years but their age will still refer to the year the keel was laid . Ireland has one of the toughest survey offices in europe if not the world . there is no way a vessel not fit for purpose will be let operate they would be tied up at the stroke of a pen for the simplest of defect.
    I fished a boat years ago that was built in the 1930's , when we first applied for a licence the survey office nearly laughed at us . When we explained that both sides had been renewed several times and also re engined numerous times , it was fine . Everything was new but she was still classed as 70 yrs old at the time


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    #144
    donegaLroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    They should start using the Jeanie Johnston as the Tory ferry, sure it sits on the Liffey for most of the year.. they might as well put it to use

    is?KestAsw9AGKJ665ErXBQHmd2b2VGF3KIDcPlj6ReBOw&height=264


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    #145
    Nomis21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    donegaLroad wrote: »
    They should start using the Jeanie Johnston as the Tory ferry, sure it sits on the Liffey for most of the year.. they might as well put it to use

    is?KestAsw9AGKJ665ErXBQHmd2b2VGF3KIDcPlj6ReBOw&height=264

    Will they take the Captain as well...

    captain.jpg


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    #146
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    donegaLroad wrote: »
    They should start using the Jeanie Johnston as the Tory ferry, sure it sits on the Liffey for most of the year.. they might as well put it to use

    Be a hell of a draw for tourists probably ;)


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    #147
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    donegaLroad wrote: »
    They should start using the Jeanie Johnston as the Tory ferry, sure it sits on the Liffey for most of the year.. they might as well put it to use

    is?KestAsw9AGKJ665ErXBQHmd2b2VGF3KIDcPlj6ReBOw&height=264

    should be old enough to keep the haters happy :)


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    #148
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,888 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    should be old enough to keep the haters happy :)

    Built in the 1990s.:pac:


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    #149
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Built in the 1990s.:pac:

    that's the end of that so !


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    #150
    milehip
    Registered Users Posts: 733 ✭✭✭milehip


    Thread title is a bit misleading.

    'Trouble getting to Tory island' maybe?


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    #151
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭Odelay


    donegaLroad wrote: »
    They should start using the Jeanie Johnston as the Tory ferry, sure it sits on the Liffey for most of the year.. they might as well put it to use

    is?KestAsw9AGKJ665ErXBQHmd2b2VGF3KIDcPlj6ReBOw&height=264

    No, they can't do that. It is not certified as a ferry. But I know you were probably kidding.
    I like to deal in facts and simple yes or no if a vessel is deemed fit for purpose by a marine engineer. Still awaiting Bobs report on the ferry.


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