The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

jack presley · 09-02-2018 02:26PM

Clementine Scary String wrote: »

How are a franchise qb and a hall of fame qb the same?

Also did either of them win MVP?

I didn't mean to indicate they were. I was trying to say that just because you're Superbowl MVP, doesn't mean you're a great QB.

No idea about whether those two won the MVP award.

Billy86 · 09-02-2018 02:27PM

I think setting hall of fame calibre as 'the bar' for a franchise QB is far, far too high - if that were the case there have only been maybe 5-6 actual franchise QBs in the NFL over the last full decade (Peyton, Favre, Brady Brees, Rogers, Ben... and maybe Wilson).

Mind you, at least we're done hearing from analysts etc how there are 20+ "elite" QBs in the league!

jack presley · 09-02-2018 02:27PM

It's my own fault for contributing to the discussion and encouraging the debate but if there are two NFL terms I really hate and switch off when someone mentions them it's Franchise QB and Elite QB.

Foxtrol · 09-02-2018 02:28PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

I get that alright, I'm just surprised it's so much is all. I thought he was looking at around 20 mill per season tops. If he does turn out to be an Andy Dalton level QB, he won't be bad enough to cut, but he'll still be a top 5 paid QB - even in 3 years time. And there is a few similarities between this situation and the Osweiler situation, not that they're in any was similar (as players).

But again, that being said, I do think he'll be worth every cent. I genuinely hope the man goes on to win a Superbowl of his own one day.

After his performances since joining he was either signing a contract or getting tagged. Taking your proposition, if he was tagged and then played at Dalton levels next year the 49ers would be in a worse conundrum, where they wouldn’t want to let him go but the price would be even higher again (see the Cousins saga). The franchise tag for next year will be around $24m so that was basically the floor of any deal he was going to get. I’d frankly be worried about any young player who played like Garoppolo did, and dealing with a team with such huge cap space, who accepted a cut price contract just to get under a long term contract.

Also, with the rate the cap is increasing and the list of QBs who are up for new contracts I don’t see how he is still in the top 5 best paid QBs list in 3 years time.

BonnieSituation · 09-02-2018 02:37PM

I think this is that moment like when Pogba went for crazy cash and Mourinho said it's the new normal.

Jimmy G's contract is insane considering. But watch what happens when the true greats like Brees and Rodgers come up for renewal. We'll look at this contract as peanuts.

09-02-2018 02:55PM

jack presley wrote: »

It's my own fault for contributing to the discussion and encouraging the debate but if there are two NFL terms I really hate and switch off when someone mentions them it's Franchise QB and Elite QB.

So why are you debating if he is one or not?

Your responses are not really making sense

He's not a franchise qb because he's not hall of fame

Nick foles may have won superbiwl MVP but dilfer and Johnson also won a Super Bowl

He's not a franchise but I don't believe in the term franchise qb

jack presley · 09-02-2018 03:02PM

Clementine Scary String wrote: »

So why are you debating if he is one or not?

Your responses are not really making sense

He's not a franchise qb because he's not hall of fame

Nick foles may have won superbiwl MVP but dilfer and Johnson also won a Super Bowl

He's not a franchise but I don't believe in the term franchise qb

I know, as I said I hate those 2 term but I got sucked in to talking about it and now I want to quietly back out and pretend I never wore the words franchise or elite.

Basically what I was trying to say is that having watched most of Cousins' games in their entirety, he is not a QB I would want to rest my hope on so maybe I should have just said that and left it at that.

Foxtrol · 09-02-2018 03:04PM

The 49ers can also hope that, alongside winning a ring or two, Garoppolo fits in time over the next 5 years to find himself a famous wife who can become the primary bread winner. It will allow him to take a more ‘team friendly’ contract next time

Realt Dearg Sec · 09-02-2018 03:14PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I think this is that moment like when Pogba went for crazy cash and Mourinho said it's the new normal.

Jimmy G's contract is insane considering. But watch what happens when the true greats like Brees and Rodgers come up for renewal. We'll look at this contract as peanuts.

There's nothing particularly new in this stuff though. It wasn't that long ago that Bradford had the biggest contract in the league. Cutler was given what was (rightly, really, but bear with me) regarded as an insane contract a couple of years ago by the Bears making him the highest paid QB in the league. But two things happened: the first was that the contract was front loaded so that in latter years it wasn't so bad at all, and the second was that as the salary cap rose and other Qbs got new contracts, Cutler's contract receded to somewhere in the middle of the pack. Exactly where he belongs. The guys drawing up the contracts are doing so with a view to what the market will look like throughout that contract, not necessarily how it looks in comparison to current contracts. The same is true for Jimmy G, and if he outperforms that contract in a couple of years it will look like extremely good value.

[I still think the Alex Smith contract looks to have been a great bargain given what's likely to happen next]

Son Of A Vidic · 09-02-2018 03:19PM

paulie21 wrote: »

Jimmy G signs 5 year deal for 137.5 million. Highest ever for QB

Delighted for him and I loved kid from the day the Pats drafted. The best quarterback to ever back up Brady, unfortunately for him time wasn't on his side with the Pats, because the GOAT is playing better than ever. But he's learned a lot from Brady over those 4 years and you can see it with his poise on the field. But it brings into focus how blessed us Pats fans are to have Brady, because he's been taking team friendly deals since day 1 and that includes the years before he met Giselle. Jimmy will earn more over the next 5 years than Brady has earned over the last 14 years. And fair play to him and I've no doubt Jimmy will be worth every cent.

BonnieSituation · 09-02-2018 04:55PM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Delighted for him and I loved kid from the day the Pats drafted. The best quarterback to ever back up Brady, unfortunately for him time wasn't on his side with the Pats, because the GOAT is playing better than ever. But he's learned a lot from Brady over those 4 years and you can see it with his poise on the field. But it brings into focus how blessed us Pats fans are to have Brady, because he's been taking team friendly deals since day 1 and that includes the years before he met Giselle. Jimmy will earn more over the next 5 years than Brady has earned over the last 14 years. And fair play to him and I've no doubt Jimmy will be worth every cent.

Not to get into a TB discussion but he's earned 192million in 18years. Admittedly that at a bargain 10.6 average per year though.

https://overthecap.com/player/tom-brady/1250

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 06:04PM

As RDS said - It looks like Jimmy G's contract is front loaded and will pay him $90million in the first three years of the contract.

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Jimmy will earn more over the next 5 years than Brady has earned over the last 14 years. And fair play to him and I've no doubt Jimmy will be worth every cent.

In terms of NFL pay - yes - but Brady makes a sh*t-load of money from endorsements etc.

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 06:10PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

In the sense that he was worth a first?

Normally when you are shopping a player you phone up and say 'what will you give me for Joe Soap' and then the negotiations begin. BB didn't do that.

Prior to the trade the rumoured price was two first rounders and it is reported that Cleveland offered the No.4 pick in this years draft - instead the 49ers gave the Pats the No.43 pick. It was BB following orders because he didn't want to do it.

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 06:18PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Broncos might have around $35 million in cap space before they sort out anything.
It's hard to see how they'd free up the room to compete for a QB in FA as things stand.
They would need to trade some big players on big contracts to free up the room to make a play.

I outlined above how the Broncos can get to $70million. Talib will go because of a cap saving of $11million and the Broncos have a ready made replacement in Roby (he could well be traded for a low round pick because his contract is reasonable for a top-flight CB).

The only player that has to be traded in Sanders - he has a cap hit of $11million and dead money of $5.5million. Elway will trade if possible to eliminate most of the dead money.

The rest of those leaving are pretty much scrubs - Siemian, Garcia, Watson, Stephenson, etc

eagle eye · 09-02-2018 06:49PM

A lot of conjecture here, kinda like you are foolish enough to believe everything you read.

BonnieSituation · 09-02-2018 06:53PM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Normally when you are shopping a player you phone up and say 'what will you give me for Joe Soap' and then the negotiations begin. BB didn't do that.

Prior to the trade the rumoured price was two first rounders and it is reported that Cleveland offered the No.4 pick in this years draft - instead the 49ers gave the Pats the No.43 pick. It was BB following orders because he didn't want to do it.

My understanding as well of that aspect of the trade was that BB was looking out for Garopollo and not sending him to a tyre fire like Cleveland.

He didn't want to trade him but he also didn't want to screw him over in the process.

BonnieSituation · 09-02-2018 06:54PM

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of conjecture here, kinda like you are foolish enough to believe everything you read.

Sure isn't it always conjecture?

TOss Sweep · 09-02-2018 07:14PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

My understanding as well of that aspect of the trade was that BB was looking out for Garopollo and not sending him to a tyre fire like Cleveland.

He didn't want to trade him but he also didn't want to screw him over in the process.

Don't think I have ever seen this been mentioned which if true is nice of BB to look out for Jimmy that way but the Pats were not willing to trade with the Browns at that time as by all account Bill wanted to keep Jimmy around.

The situation changed and the Pats were not in a position to keep both QB and pay Jimmy next year so the trade was in essence the right thing to do. No way we were trading Brady and no way we were going to pay Jimmy and no way Jimmy would sit behind Brady again.

As for all the disgruntled nonsense that others have mentioned nothing more than bad reporting and "sources" making stuff up to suit their agendas. Yes Bill wanted to keep Jimmy but they didn't fight over it. That is just daft. As fat head always says Fake News.

adrian522 · 09-02-2018 07:48PM

Jimmy G contract details, not too bad from a 49ers point of view, seriously front loaded, only really committed to 2 years, could get out after that without much dead money...

2018
Base salary: $6,200,000
Roster bonus: $28 million
Roster bonuses (paid over course of season): $800,000
Workout bonus: $600,000
Prorated SB: $1,400,000

Cap hit: $37,000,000

2019
Base salary: $17.2 million ($7.5 million guaranteed at signing)
Roster bonuses (paid over course of season): $800,000
Workout bonus: $600,000
Prorated SB: $1,400,000

Cap hit: $20,000,000

2020
Base salary: $23.8 million ($15.7 million guaranteed for injury)
Roster bonuses (paid over course of season): $800,000
Workout bonus: $600,000
Prorated SB: $1,400,000

Cap hit: $26,600,000

2021
Base salary: $24.1 million
Roster bonuses (paid over course of season): $800,000
Workout bonus: $600,000
Prorated SB: $1,400,000

Cap hit: $26,900,000

2022
Base salary: $24.2 million
Roster bonuses (paid over course of season): $800,000
Workout bonus: $600,000
Prorated SB: $1,400,000

Cap hit: $27,000,000

The 49ers have cap space of around $74m in 2018 after this deal.

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 09:38PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Jimmy G contract details, not too bad from a 49ers point of view, seriously front loaded, only really committed to 2 years, could get out after that without much dead money...

Its a smart (and obvious) move by Lynch - the 49ers have the money now - they won't have it in a couple of years if they are going to be competitive.

Knex* · 09-02-2018 09:47PM

Some lad on reddit did a massive prediction for the offseason, both Free Agency and the Draft. Very impressive work, a hell of a lot of detail in it the writeup.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/7w8js3/four_round_mock_with_fa_trades_comp_picks/

Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kJ5ozdIyztU_yl5n8vFL3zr-3yAAOI14zqmHCt7HfSY/edit

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 09:50PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

My understanding as well of that aspect of the trade was that BB was looking out for Garopollo and not sending him to a tyre fire like Cleveland.

He didn't want to trade him but he also didn't want to screw him over in the process.

BB is ruthless - if he felt it was in his interest then Jimmy G would be in Cleveland. BB wanted to keep him as a replacement for Brady - but there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on in NE. Kraft was looking at post-BB, BB was looking at post-Brady, Brady was worried that Jimmy G would replace him, Kraft told BB to get rid of Jimmy G and BB gave him to SF for half his trade value in order to stick it to Kraft.

Wouldn't be surprised to see BB retire this off-season - there is a reason McDaniels f*cked-over the Colts - and the power struggle will continue to play out until there is a resolution.

Jolly Red Giant · 09-02-2018 10:16PM

Knex. wrote: »

Some lad on reddit did a massive prediction for the offseason, both Free Agency and the Draft. Very impressive work, a hell of a lot of detail in it the writeup.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/7w8js3/four_round_mock_with_fa_trades_comp_picks/

Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kJ5ozdIyztU_yl5n8vFL3zr-3yAAOI14zqmHCt7HfSY/edit

The FA moves look decent - but, in relation to Denver, he is wrong about Wolfe. Wolfe is on a very cap friendly contract and is one of the key members of the defence. However, he is suffering from a neck injury and may be forced to retire. If he can play he will be with the Broncos unless they believe he is one hit away from going down for good.

The draft is all over the shop (and that is not a surprise). I expect Barkley to be taken either by the Colts or the Browns at No.4. Again in relation to Denver, he has the Broncos focusing on defence. If you sign Cousins then you have to protect him and the Broncos badly need an OT and an OG. The one glaring weakness on the defence is ILB and offences exploit it using the TE. Most Broncos fans expect Elway to address all three spots in the top two rounds. Look for the Broncos to trade - not to No.7 - but to around mid-round and taking Roquan Smith ILB - and then trade back into the first round to take Brown OT (the other option would be, if Nelson OG falls far enough - say to No. 10 - then Elway takes him and then trades back into the first round for Smith). In the second round Elway will either take an OT if he has Nelson - or more likely an OG if he has Brown - and the OG being touted is Hernandez (the Broncos have first hand knowledge of Hernandez from the Senior Bowl where he was impressive). After that expect RB, CB, S, DE and NT in no particular order to be next on the list.

I am sure fans of other teams would be able to make similar assessments.

TOss Sweep · 10-02-2018 02:24AM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

BB is ruthless - if he felt it was in his interest then Jimmy G would be in Cleveland. BB wanted to keep him as a replacement for Brady - but there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on in NE. Kraft was looking at post-BB, BB was looking at post-Brady, Brady was worried that Jimmy G would replace him, Kraft told BB to get rid of Jimmy G and BB gave him to SF for half his trade value in order to stick it to Kraft.

Oh yeah you got good concrete inside information on this? Or are you a firm believer in the "sources" ESPN came up with.

None of those claims have ever been backed up by any regular Pats writer or any regular Pats insider. All hear say from an unknown "Pats Staffer" Seth Wickersham a man who is obsessed with trying to find something that isnt there with Tom Brady and the Patriots.

Did Bill want to keep Jimmy? Yes we all know that much is true Bill said it himself in so many words. But the feud crap is just nonsense. Wickersham is full of sh1t and always has been.

mikemac2 · 10-02-2018 10:25AM

Knex. wrote: »

Some lad on reddit did a massive prediction for the offseason, both Free Agency and the Draft. Very impressive work, a hell of a lot of detail in it the writeup.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/7w8js3/four_round_mock_with_fa_trades_comp_picks/

Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kJ5ozdIyztU_yl5n8vFL3zr-3yAAOI14zqmHCt7HfSY/edit

Very interesting read. It's accurate for the Ravens because of the lack of FA moves they will make. :pac: The Ravens are always struggling for cap space

He has Ryan Jensen to the Texans, Woodhead to Cowboys and Jeremy Maclin to the Giants. Whatever about the destinations I agree they won't be back. Jensen will be missed

Mike Wallace to resign, I'd agree with that too but he'll be testing FA for a while before anything gets done. Trey Burton signed also, I don't know a lot about him but a pass catching TE is a definite need

Draft:
(1,16) Connor Williams, OT, Texas
(2,52) Antonio Calloway, WR, Florida
(3,83) Jerome Baker, LB, Ohio State
(3,94) Mike White, QB, Western Kentucky
(4,126) Nick Chubb, RB, Georgia

Wow a 3rd round QB, hasn't happened since the Chris Redman who in 2000 who I believe got a long career for himself as the Falcons backup QB .

I like the RB pick. I think the message boards will go into meltdown for taking a lineman in the 1st round

BonnieSituation · 10-02-2018 10:41AM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Don't think I have ever seen this been mentioned which if true is nice of BB to look out for Jimmy that way but the Pats were not willing to trade with the Browns at that time as by all account Bill wanted to keep Jimmy around.

The situation changed and the Pats were not in a position to keep both QB and pay Jimmy next year so the trade was in essence the right thing to do. No way we were trading Brady and no way we were going to pay Jimmy and no way Jimmy would sit behind Brady again.

As for all the disgruntled nonsense that others have mentioned nothing more than bad reporting and "sources" making stuff up to suit their agendas. Yes Bill wanted to keep Jimmy but they didn't fight over it. That is just daft. As fat head always says Fake News.

I saw it in a couple of places about Bill purposefully sending him to SF as a way of doing him a solid. But for the life of me can't remember where.

And you know yourself, I wouldn't be one to spout positivity towards the Hoodie. But he does strike me as the sort that would see the likes of Jimmy G as his project and his failureto make it would be a sort of failure to him.

He's a ruthless bastard alright but only in the way you have to be to be ranked with Lombardi, Shula and Landry.

---

@JRG, cheers for those links. just the sort of stuff I need to procrastinate with.

phatkev · 10-02-2018 11:13AM

Knex. wrote: »

Some lad on reddit did a massive prediction for the offseason, both Free Agency and the Draft. Very impressive work, a hell of a lot of detail in it the writeup.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/7w8js3/four_round_mock_with_fa_trades_comp_picks/

Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kJ5ozdIyztU_yl5n8vFL3zr-3yAAOI14zqmHCt7HfSY/edit

A serious amount of work must have went into that! If the Jets FA spending did turn out like this I'd be fairly disappointed, CB and OL are the two areas outside of QB that the Jets need to invest heavily in(they'll have over $100 million, so if they dont sign Cousins I'd fully expect a big chunk of that money to go on a centre and a cornerback). I'd have no interest in going after Carlos Hyde or any of the FA running backs. I'd have no problem signing Taylor and drafting Mayfield, but if Denver did sign Cousins and the rest of the FA QBs went where he's expecting I dont think there would be any need to trade up in the draft.

Good read though

phatkev · 10-02-2018 11:15AM

mikemac2 wrote: »

Trey Burton signed also, I don't know a lot about him but a pass catching TE is a definite need

He can throw a tight spiral too :cool:

Paully D · 10-02-2018 05:54PM

mikemac2 wrote: »

I think the message boards will go into meltdown for taking a lineman in the 1st round

So will I! :pac:

God help the draft thread on here if we don't take an offensive playmaker. :pac:

Jolly Red Giant · 10-02-2018 07:46PM

phatkev wrote: »

I'd have no problem signing Taylor and drafting Mayfield, but if Denver did sign Cousins and the rest of the FA QBs went where he's expecting I dont think there would be any need to trade up in the draft.

The team that signs Cousins will not need to draft a QB - for every other team that signs a FA QB they are signing a stop-gap and drafting a QB will be a priority.

At the moment Cleveland, Giants, Broncos and Jets all need a QB and all are drafting top 6. If Cleveland signs Cousins then they will try and shop the 1.1 - but I would rank them behind Minnesota, Denver and Buffalo in the stakes to sign him.

I expect the Browns to take Darnold with 1.1 - although it couldn't be ruled out that they take Josh Allen.

The Giants may decide to roll the dice for one more season with Manning but I expect them to take Rosen (or Darnold if the Browns pass on him).

The Colts are going to be a mess in this draft - any new HC will be badly under-prepared for the draft and the Colts front office will be focused on finding a HC and then sorting out the mess McDaniels left them with. I expect them to go for the safe pick at 1.3 and take the sure-fire thing that is Saquon Barkley.

The Browns could do anything with the 1.4 - trade to the Broncos if they need a QB, trade to the Jets if they need a QB (which they probably will) or they could stay and take Fitzpatrick or Nelson or Chubb etc. If the Colts pass on Barkley then the Browns will take him at 1.4

If the Broncos don't get Cousins they will draft a QB at 1.5 (or trade up to 1.4 if they are worried about the Jets) - Rosen will be the pick if he falls, otherwise it looks like Mayfield (they seemed to favour Mayfield over Allen while coaching the Senior Bowl). If the Broncos get Cousins then expect Elway to trade down to the mid-round and pick up a 2nd this year and a first rounder next year.

The Jets will take whatever QB is left at 1.6

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

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