Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

MJohnston · 31-01-2018 09:25PM

Stheno wrote: »

Where did he come from?

Connacht

CIARAN_BOYLE · 31-01-2018 09:26PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

It has definitely worked out. Cooney could be the starter for the next five years. Pienaar at best would have gone for three more?

Tbh there hasn't been many egregious errors when cases like this have come up. Nathan Hines probably stands out. Leinster didn't properly replace him until Fardy arrived years later.

In 6 years time Cooney will be as old as Pienaar is now.

jacothelad wrote: »

Didn't Hines leave because he was only offered a one year deal because of his age rather than a 2 year contract whereas Pienaar was simply shown the door because he was holding back the 32 year old 200+ caps and Irish capped Paul Marshall.:D:D:D

Pienaar was shown the door because no one was paying attention to warning after warning being told 'hey Ulster you need a new 9'.

prawnsambo · 31-01-2018 09:31PM

jacothelad wrote: »

Didn't Hines leave because he was only offered a one year deal because of his age rather than a 2 year contract whereas Pienaar was simply shown the door because he was holding back the 32 year old 200+ caps and Irish capped Paul Marshall.:D:D:D

Hines wasn't offered a new contract at all iirc. He actually initially signed a one year contract with Clermont.

Former Former · 31-01-2018 09:34PM

Hines was not offered a 1 year renewal. He was dumped after 2 years even though both he and Leinster wanted to renew.

It's been forgotten now but he was replaced by Steven Sykes who looked to be a very good signing with potential to become an Irish international. That was before he actually arrived of course, but you could see where IRFU were coming from.

bilston · 31-01-2018 09:35PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

It has definitely worked out. Cooney could be the starter for the next five years. Pienaar at best would have gone for three more?

Tbh there hasn't been many egregious errors when cases like this have come up. Nathan Hines probably stands out. Leinster didn't properly replace him until Fardy arrived years later.

In 6 years time Cooney will be as old as Pienaar is now.

jacothelad wrote: »

Didn't Hines leave because he was only offered a one year deal because of his age rather than a 2 year contract whereas Pienaar was simply shown the door because he was holding back the 32 year old 200+ caps and Irish capped Paul Marshall.:D:D:D

Pienaar was shown the door because no one was paying attention to warning after warning being told 'hey Ulster you need a new 9'.

I don't want to go there again...but who was there? Paul Marshall? He has over 200 caps for Ulster...who else was neglected? The answer is no one. I thought Michael Heaney had a bit about him but if he was that good he would have made it elsewhere. Pienaar held no one back because no one good enough existed.

Anyway, in the end it's worked out for the best, although we could have done with Pienaar as a 10!

31-01-2018 10:09PM

awec wrote: »

Payne the new defence coach according to UTV.

That suggests in all likelihood that we've sadly seen the last of him as a player. He will have most likely agreed a change to his contract to take on this role but that would be predicated on vacating his current contract upon terms that are slightly more favourable to Ulster or the IRFU.

He may have had a 'player to coach' transitional clause but in all likelihood he is retiring. I'd be delighted to be wrong.

On the other hand it's a great move. I think the guy is a genius. If he was fit he'd be one of the first names down for Ireland in my opinion.

31-01-2018 10:47PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd agree a bit more with Cave if Cooney had been a talent that'd been kept out of the team by Pienaar's presence, but ultimately he's just another import.

salmocab wrote: »

Have to say I thought at the time that Ulster should have been allowed keep Pienaar for another season but Cooney has been an excellent signing for them. He’s playing great and seems to be consistent.

jacothelad wrote: »

Cooney has been very fine indeed but Pienaar is a different type of player. Given the sorry state of Ulster Rugby, the team would have been better with Pienaar here than not but I suppose we might not have attracted Cooney in that event. Cooney is now holding back Paul Marshall.

Cooney has already specifically stated that it was Pienaar leaving that had him get his agent to reach out to Ulster. If Pienaar was still at Ulster, Cooney most likely would not be.

Zzippy · 31-01-2018 10:48PM

Stheno wrote: »

Where did he come from?

Forged in Leinster, tempered and polished in Connacht

MJohnston · 31-01-2018 10:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Cooney has already specifically stated that it was Pienaar leaving that had him get his agent to reach out to Ulster. If Pienaar was still at Ulster, Cooney most likely would not be.

Yes, that's all fine and obvious, but the main line being thrown at Ulster before Pienaar left was "you're not developing your own 9s, and he's preventing it", which importing Cooney didn't fix.

awec · 31-01-2018 10:55PM

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, that's all fine and obvious, but the main line being thrown at Ulster before Pienaar left was "you're not developing your own 9s, and he's preventing it", which importing Cooney didn't fix.

Yea.

When you look at it from the sense of developing young Ulster players then an import is an import, it doesn't matter if they are from Dublin or Durban. They aren't from Ulster.

pickarooney · 31-01-2018 11:14PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

In 6 years time Cooney will be as old as Pienaar is now.

Pienaar was shown the door because no one was paying attention to warning after warning being told 'hey Ulster you need a new 9'.

They could have played him at 10 and Cooney at 9.

Downlinz · 31-01-2018 11:21PM

awec wrote: »

Payne the new defence coach according to UTV.

Very disappointed if he's retiring. The guy is a class act and an underappreciated gem. Ireland have always performed better with him in the side.

Former Former · 31-01-2018 11:25PM

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, that's all fine and obvious, but the main line being thrown at Ulster before Pienaar left was "you're not developing your own 9s, and he's preventing it", which importing Cooney didn't fix.

There's the "not developing Ulster players" line, but there's also the "not contributing players to the national setup" line, which importing Cooney did/will fix.

Ulster fans might not want a Leinster guy playing for them, but IRFU don't care so long as he can play for the national side.

MJohnston · 31-01-2018 11:34PM

Former Former wrote: »

There's the "not developing Ulster players" line, but there's also the "not contributing players to the national setup" line, which importing Cooney did/will fix.

Ulster fans might not want a Leinster guy playing for them, but IRFU don't care so long as he can play for the national side.

I'd happily have a Leinster player for Ulster, but I'm just saying, regarding what Cave said, which is that Nucifora got it right, the IRFU party line was about player development within Ulster, and Cooney being around has not fixed that, so I think Cave was overstating things a bit.

Former Former · 31-01-2018 11:46PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd happily have a Leinster player for Ulster, but I'm just saying, regarding what Cave said, which is that Nucifora got it right, the IRFU party line was about player development within Ulster, and Cooney being around has not fixed that, so I think Cave was overstating things a bit.

Call me cynical, but Cave chooses the day Les Kiss gets sacked to come out praising an IRFU decision that everyone in Ulster was viciously critical of at the time?

Anyhoo.... Nucifora just wants IQ players in key positions. He doesn't care what province they're from, that is very definitely the party line.

MJohnston · 31-01-2018 11:49PM

Former Former wrote: »

Call me cynical, but Cave chooses the day Les Kiss gets sacked to come out praising an IRFU decision that everyone in Ulster was viciously critical of at the time?

Nah, the podcast his comments were from was recorded last night - https://twitter.com/lukefitz11/status/958635426386010112

Stheno · 31-01-2018 11:49PM

Former Former wrote: »

Call me cynical, but Cave chooses the day Les Kiss gets sacked to come out praising an IRFU decision that everyone in Ulster was viciously critical of at the time?

Anyhoo.... Nucifora just wants IQ players in key positions. He doesn't care what province they're from, that is very definitely the party line.

I agree on the cynicism

irishbucsfan · 01-02-2018 06:22AM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd happily have a Leinster player for Ulster, but I'm just saying, regarding what Cave said, which is that Nucifora got it right, the IRFU party line was about player development within Ulster, and Cooney being around has not fixed that, so I think Cave was overstating things a bit.

Nah, it makes absolutely zero difference to the IRFU if the Irish qualified players at Ulster we’re developed by Ulster. Cooney certainly fixes the problem that was there.

Burkie1203 · 01-02-2018 06:55AM

awec wrote: »

Yea.

When you look at it from the sense of developing young Ulster players then an import is an import, it doesn't matter if they are from Dublin or Durban. They aren't from Ulster.

Cooney could see out his career at Ulster. Him moving north could also give players not getting regular gametime elsewhere in ireland the idea to head north. Jordi for example. Surely thats better for Ulster to develop a stronger squad?

irishfan9 · 01-02-2018 07:30AM

ulster rugby for ulster men

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 08:52AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah, it makes absolutely zero difference to the IRFU if the Irish qualified players at Ulster we’re developed by Ulster. Cooney certainly fixes the problem that was there.

I wasn't trying to argue the IRFU actually cared, I'm just saying that's what the public party line on the whole thing was, that Ulster needed "indigenous talent" and Pienaar needed to leave to let "developmental potential" shine through. Arguably that applies to Cooney, but that's a nice facade over the core problem, which is that Ulster haven't been developing their own 9s.

molloyjh · 01-02-2018 09:03AM

MJohnston wrote: »

I wasn't trying to argue the IRFU actually cared, I'm just saying that's what the public party line on the whole thing was, that Ulster needed "indigenous talent" and Pienaar needed to leave to let "developmental potential" shine through. Arguably that applies to Cooney, but that's a nice facade over the core problem, which is that Ulster haven't been developing their own 9s.

The exact quote was:

David Nucifora wrote:

It is vital for both Ulster and Irish rugby that the province develop indigenous talent in this position and an extension of Ruan's contract would further prevent Irish-qualified Ulster players from maximising their developmental potential and becoming stars for both Ulster and Ireland.

The way I read that is that they wanted IQ players playing in that position in Ulster, not specifically Ulser born and bred. Cooney is indigenous to Ireland and is an Irish qualified Ulster player, is he not?

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 09:12AM

molloyjh wrote: »

The way I read that is that they wanted IQ players playing in that position in Ulster, not specifically Ulser born and bred. Cooney is indigenous to Ireland and is an Irish qualified Ulster player, is he not?

Eh, it's ambiguous I'd argue (though there were other statements along those lines, and certainly most non-Ulster fans seemed to take it as referring to developing new players at Ulster), but I'm saying that it's a hollow solution. IRFU should be more interesting in ensuring that Ulster have a development system that brings through 9s, not that they're free to import them from other provinces. The latter is a band aid that's only good in the short term.

Which is why I think Cave is overstating how successful letting Pienaar go has been.

irishbucsfan · 01-02-2018 09:24AM

It's not at all a hollow solution. At all.

The IRFU are likely extremely interested that Ulster have a development system that will bring through players at every single position, not just 9. But that is a completely different problem. That's the long term solution but there is no possibly short term solution on that one.

Limiting NIQ players and encouraging provinces to sign Irish players from other provinces is a short term solution that increases the number of Irish players playing at the highest level they can. And that is a clearly beneficial outcome for encouraging movement between provinces. Not just for Ulster, the same for Leinster with Cronin for example.

stephen_n · 01-02-2018 09:49AM

irishfan9 wrote: »

ulster rugby for South Africans

Fyp

irishfan9 · 01-02-2018 09:52AM

stephen_n wrote: »

Fyp

no that's another provinces these days.

molloyjh · 01-02-2018 09:55AM

MJohnston wrote: »

Eh, it's ambiguous I'd argue (though there were other statements along those lines, and certainly most non-Ulster fans seemed to take it as referring to developing new players at Ulster), but I'm saying that it's a hollow solution. IRFU should be more interesting in ensuring that Ulster have a development system that brings through 9s, not that they're free to import them from other provinces. The latter is a band aid that's only good in the short term.

Which is why I think Cave is overstating how successful letting Pienaar go has been.

I'm not sure that it's at all ambiguous to be honest. The IRFU care about the national side above all others. They don't care if the Ulster 9 is from Dublin or Belfast (or Durban or anywhere else), so long as he's qualified to play for Ireland.

As IBF said they will have a longer term requirement that the Ulster Academy deliver, but that was never going to happen overnight. The IRFU knew this as well as anyone. I'm sure they saw the opportunity there with Cooney as well as having to make the point with Ulster that they needed to pull up their socks on that front too.

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 10:20AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not at all a hollow solution. At all.

The IRFU are likely extremely interested that Ulster have a development system that will bring through players at every single position, not just 9. But that is a completely different problem. That's the long term solution but there is no possibly short term solution on that one.

Limiting NIQ players and encouraging provinces to sign Irish players from other provinces is a short term solution that increases the number of Irish players playing at the highest level they can. And that is a clearly beneficial outcome for encouraging movement between provinces. Not just for Ulster, the same for Leinster with Cronin for example.

It's a hollow solution by itself. And Darren Cave was talking about pushing Pienaar out being "100%" the right decision by Nucifora from an Ulster perspective based solely on how Cooney has worked out.

My point is simply that Darren Cave is overstating how prescient a decision that turned out to be, because we have not seen any evidence yet that it has solved the root problem at Ulster.

swiwi_ · 01-02-2018 10:22AM

awec wrote: »

Payne the new defence coach according to UTV.

Excellent move by Ulster. As they say in the trade "No Payne, no gain".

01-02-2018 10:24AM

MJohnston wrote: »

It's a hollow solution by itself. And Darren Cave was talking about pushing Pienaar out being "100%" the right decision by Nucifora from an Ulster perspective based solely on how Cooney has worked out.

My point is simply that Darren Cave is overstating how prescient a decision that turned out to be, because we have not seen any evidence yet that it has solved the root problem at Ulster.

You're not going to see any evidence either because I have no idea how any signing is supposed to solve the root problem in question, just as giving Pienaar another contract wouldn't have either. The root problem is solved by the schools and academy upping their standards of coaching and development. This is a very different thing and obviously has to happen in parallel. Keeping Pienaar was even more of a band-aid than signing Cooney.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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