NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

seaniefr · 31-01-2018 11:49PM

That exists with the ESB but Eir cannot enter private property in the same way that the ESB can so as far as I am aware they have no such rights. Has anyone here as part of a contract ever signed something saying that they have given Eir this kind of permission?

evosteo · 31-01-2018 11:51PM

seaniefr wrote: »

Not really what I am getting at. All poles with the exception of the ones on private lands are sited alongside public roads which are state owned meaning you, me and all the rest of the taxpayers in this country via county/city councils so why can this not be factored in?

There not thou. It's part of open eirs infrastructure

Edit: sorry I read it that you thought the poles were state owned

Zonda999 · 31-01-2018 11:54PM

The cynic in me really isn't surprised at this decision. I don't claim to understand the entireity of the situation around Eir getting the 300K excluded from the NBP but I suspect that an outcome like today was firmly being considered by Eir when they committed to the 300K.

The 300K really are the low hanging fruit and I think Eir, commercially have played a blinder here. We all know that while there was no doubt that NBP was going to be hugely expensive, but obviously on a per house basis, there would have been huge variability in the effective cost. I have no doubt that the taking of the 300K increased the cost of the 500K houses still in the NBP, pretty significantly.

At the moment, I'm only thankful my home is included in that 300k and hope to have FTTH before 2020

fritzelly · 01-02-2018 12:04AM

Zonda999 wrote: »

At the moment, I'm only thankful my home is included in that 300k and hope to have FTTH before 2020

You're assuming they will continue that far down the line, words are cheap when the press are about.

Zonda999 · 01-02-2018 12:11AM

fritzelly wrote: »

You're assuming they will continue that far down the line, words are cheap when the press are about.

Very true, but I suspect they will do much of these, even if they are inevitably (And now more than ever) delayed beyond their original due dates. My local cabinet is meant to be done Q3/Q4 2018, thats supposedly as soon as 5 months away, but I think one year can comfortably be added to that.

fritzelly · 01-02-2018 12:24AM

Zonda999 wrote: »

Very true, but I suspect they will do much of these, even if they are inevitably (And now more than ever) delayed beyond their original due dates. My local cabinet is meant to be done Q3/Q4 2018, thats supposedly as soon as 5 months away, but I think one year can comfortably be added to that.

Wouldn't be holding my breath, if infrastructure has already started you're probably grand
New owner has already stated he's all about the urban areas and if I was him and just spent 3+ billion on a company I would be looking for my fastest way to recoup that money and that inevitably means where the density is for faster rollout with quicker returns. Just makes sense commercially.
Rural towns where there is a reasonable population density within a small area are probably still grand but nothing outside those towns.
And TBH even OpenEir's current rollout of the 300k is a bit of a shambles, he probably wants to get away from that negativity of people waiting months for an install because a DP is not active etc etc

TomOnBoard · 01-02-2018 12:27AM

I find all this very depressing from the perspective of Irish rural living.

oscarBravo · 01-02-2018 12:37AM

fritzelly wrote: »

There is pricing already laid out for using/leasing etc eir's network on openeir.ie if you have the patience to read thru it

The pricing is set by the regulator, but there is no obligation to make it available.

fritzelly · 01-02-2018 12:38AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I find all this very depressing from the perspective of Irish rural living.

You'll be grand, your man has a Plan B

Cue some curiously relevant best lines

tsue921i8wljb3 · 01-02-2018 12:40AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

The pricing is set by the regulator, but there is no obligation to make it available.

So as it stands they could refuse enet access to their network even if enet were willing to pay the current regulated price?

oscarBravo · 01-02-2018 12:40AM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

So as it stands they could refuse enet access to their network even if enet were willing to pay the current regulated price?

Yup.

fritzelly · 01-02-2018 12:41AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

The pricing is set by the regulator, but there is no obligation to make it available.

You talking about the 300k?
https://www.comreg.ie/publication/review-certain-matters-relating-access-eirs-rural-ftth-network/

I'm sure 'something' will be sorted out, same as in the UK

TomOnBoard · 01-02-2018 01:02AM

fritzelly wrote: »

You talking about the 300k?
https://www.comreg.ie/publication/review-certain-matters-relating-access-eirs-rural-ftth-network/

I'm sure 'something' will be sorted out, same as in the UK

Hopefully! However I have my doubts that Comreg will wield as big a stick in negotiations as the Regulator in the UK seems to do.

WestyJon · 01-02-2018 01:43AM

Well this is turning into quite the depressing unmitigated disaster to say the least.

So if open tendering ultimately fails (which is a reasonable possibility now) is there any possibility of 'Plan B' being the minister somehow mandating the 95% state owned ESB to roll out fibre (on their own infrastructure) to premises in Amber areas? (I'm sure its not Plan B but just throwing out the loose idea and I know it would take one brave minister/government)

It's clear the privatisation of Telecom Eireann was a mistake and are we repeating history with this current model? I would much rather something built that remains in state ownership (even at some premium) for now and the future rather than lining Eir's pockets with lease fees what will ultimately be a sizable percentage of NBP costs. The one problem with the model being currently pursued (that I foresee) is that in 25+ yrs that premises that are now non-viable to install will at that stage be non viable to even maintain and we'll have a new issue, the infrastructure handed over to whoever owns Eir etc. at the time, and they demanding subsidisation to maintain rural fiber lines. At least with ESB infrastructure would be shared with the obvious benefits.

I'm no ESB fan boy by any means and do realise theres a huge difference between €200 and multi-thousand euro installs but at least the ESB does show that state ownership is probably not the worst scenario after all.

Seems to beat trying to deal with private companies and their ever-changing owner's focus (Xavier Niel stated his focus would be competing in the high density urban market) . It's just got to that stage for me on my 2Mbs line, that I just want to see something done and its annoying (rightly or wrongly) to see our government in such a lack of control on the issue. Its getting desperate at this stage and I don't think I could stomach another retendering delay and would be seriously looking into a b4rn type solution at this stage for my business (which would be a monstrous undertaking if even possible). There is probably plenty flaw and pitfalls in what I am suggesting but one really does have to think there surely has to be a better way of getting things done.

Jim

the whole year inn · 01-02-2018 01:44AM

There is no reason to keep a phone with Eir now.I live in a rural part and was hoping eir would reach my parents house.I am going to tell them to get rid of the line and look at broadband else where.I would hazard a guess that alot of people are like my parents and have mobile phones..
I have no option but to get Satelite for them now.Such a disgrace by the country..

Danny Boy · 01-02-2018 01:51AM

WestyJon wrote: »

Well this is turning into quite the depressing disaster to say the least.

So if open tendering ultimately fails (which is a reasonable possibility now) is there any possibility of 'Plan B' being the minister somehow mandating the ESB to roll out fibre (on their own infrastructure) to premises in Amber areas? (I'm sure its not Plan B but just throwing out the loose idea)

It's clear now the privatisation of Telecom Eireann was a mistake. I would much rather something built that remains in state ownership for now and the future rather than lining Eir's pockets with lease fees what will ultimately be a sizable percentage of NBP costs. The one problem with the model being currently pursued (that I foresee) is that in 25+ yrs that premises that are now non-viable to service will at that stage be non viable to even maintain and we'll have a new issue, and trying to deal with private companies in such circumstances is difficult and costly.

I'm not ESB fan boy by any means and do realise theres a huge difference between €200 and multi-thousand euro installs but at least the ESB does show that state ownership is probably not the worst scenario after all.

Beats trying to deal with private companies and their ever-changing owners focuses. It's just got that stage for me on my 2Mbs line, that I just want to see something done and its annoying (rightly or wrongly) to see our government in such a lack of control on the issue. Its getting desperate at this stage and I don't think I could stomach another retendering delay and would be seriously looking into a b4rn type solution at this stage for my business. There is probably plenty flaw in what I am suggesting but one really does have to think there surely has to be a better way of getting things done.

Jim

You're talking billions to get the ESB to do it, possibly a state aid case, and a rural network that is set up for electricity not broadband, it will not happen.

fritzelly · 01-02-2018 01:52AM

WestyJon wrote: »

Well this is turning into quite the depressing disaster to say the least.

So if open tendering ultimately fails (which is a reasonable possibility now) is there any possibility of 'Plan B' being the minister somehow mandating the ESB to roll out fibre (on their own infrastructure) to premises in Amber areas? (I'm sure its not Plan B but just throwing out the loose idea)

It's clear now the privatisation of Telecom Eireann was a mistake. I would much rather something built that remains in state ownership for now and the future rather than lining Eir's pockets with lease fees what will ultimately be a sizable percentage of NBP costs. The one problem with the model being currently pursued (that I foresee) is that in 25+ yrs that premises that are now non-viable to service will at that stage be non viable to even maintain and we'll have a new issue, and trying to deal with private companies in such circumstances is difficult and costly.

I'm not ESB fan boy by any means and do realise theres a huge difference between €200 and multi-thousand euro installs but at least the ESB does show that state ownership is probably not the worst scenario after all.

Beats trying to deal with private companies and their ever-changing owners focuses. It's just got that stage for me on my 2Mbs line, that I just want to see something done and its annoying (rightly or wrongly) to see our government in such a lack of control on the issue. Its getting desperate at this stage and I don't think I could stomach another retendering delay and would be looking into a b4rn type solution at this stage for my buiness. . There is probably plenty flaw in what I am suggesting but one really does have to think there surely has to be a better way of getting things done.

Jim

You're assuming that the old Telecom Eireann would have been better - more likely they would have still had a stranglehold on the telecoms industry and we'd all still be paying extortionately high prices for crap BB and calls

The minister cannot force a private company (the ESB are not going to do this by themselves) to build an infrastructure that they may have no desire to do.
I'm not sure of the logistics of SIRO but cannot image it being any easier (probably harder) to supply than Eir

WestyJon · 01-02-2018 02:23AM

Danny Boy wrote: »

You're talking billions to get the ESB to do it, possibly a state aid case, and a rural network that is set up for electricity not broadband, it will not happen.

I do realise I am 'speaking loosely' in my post and am admittedly looking at it from the 10,000 ft view. I think good work was done by the department as regards the mapping system and one would imagine that a dynamic map keeping track of commercial operators would avert issues with state aid rules, which of course have to be complied with in any case. I believe the lack of broadband is already costing us billions and it's becoming an ever increasing problem economically. Our telecoms network was setup for POTS but was adapted to fiber as well as the national electricity network could be (at greater cost admittedly)

fritzelly wrote: »

You're assuming that the old Telecom Eireann would have been better - more likely they would have still had a stranglehold on the telecoms industry and we'd all still be paying extortionately high prices for crap BB and calls

The minister cannot force a private company (the ESB are not going to do this by themselves) to build an infrastructure that they may have no desire to do.
I'm not sure of the logistics of SIRO but cannot image it being any easier (probably harder) to supply than Eir

Agreed I am making that blind assumption re Telecom Eireann. However, I'd wager it would have been in a better state without the owner flipping, asset stripping, debt loading etc and have a less starved last mile infrastructure than it currently has . Just to be clear I'm talking only about the network infrastructure and couldn't care less as Eir/Eircom/TE retail wings. But its history and a mute point.

I'm suggesting the minister potentially could as 95% owner of ESB Group, or potentially incorporate a seperate for-purpose body with access to ESB network infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong, I know I'm reaching, but it's a real shame how long this is going to take the way we are going (which is nowhere at the moment). Usually, I believe the less our government gets involved with things the better, but in desperate times, desperate measures. They need to get the show on the road and prolonged tendering processes is not working. (Makes you wonder how they got water meters installed so fast....irks me to mention it)

Jim

Johnboy1951 · 01-02-2018 02:30AM

The ESB already run fibre on their network.
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they could, given the manpower, bring fibre to every household on the NBP map, that requested it.
If they can get into a commercial arrangement with Voda to do something similar in towns they could certainly do so in rural areas.

Whatever it costs, it needs to be done.
Estimates for the existing NBP were for something around 1.25 billion.
So what if it costs 2 x that, and the fibre runs are in public ownership.

At this time cost has to take last place. The job needs to be done.

ED E · 01-02-2018 02:39AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The ESB already run fibre on their network.
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they could, given the manpower, bring fibre to every household on the NBP map, that requested it.
If they can get into a commercial arrangement with Voda to do something similar in towns they could certainly do so in rural areas.

Whatever it costs, it needs to be done.
Estimates for the existing NBP were for something around 1.25 billion.
So what if it costs 2 x that, and the fibre runs are in public ownership.

At this time cost has to take last place. The job needs to be done.

This has been discussed in the SIRO threads.

ESB have:
ESB glass - to each main substation for monitoring equipment so Dublin can see live data no matter what
ESB Telecomms - renting glass to the likes of HEANET

This all goes on the HV network. High cost, high SLA, maintained by ESB techs on 70-100k PA.

If you want to copy this system on the low voltage distro network youll have to pay ESB techs to do it, they won't ever allow KNN on 23-27k PA to come onto their turf, for safety for one (monkeys with screwdrivers) and for protectionism. That makes a job like that suddenly super expensive. Take BTs price per m and triple or quadruple it.

Somebody in the know (digiman maybe) pointed out before that SIRO/ESBTelco weren't even offering backhaul from the rural POPS to regional exchange points, so all you were getting is a link from a 10kV station to a house, rest was up to you....

Danny Boy · 01-02-2018 02:54AM

ED E wrote: »

This has been discussed in the SIRO threads.

ESB have:
ESB glass - to each main substation for monitoring equipment so Dublin can see live data no matter what
ESB Telecomms - renting glass to the likes of HEANET

This all goes on the HV network. High cost, high SLA, maintained by ESB techs on 70-100k PA.

If you want to copy this system on the low voltage distro network youll have to pay ESB techs to do it, they won't ever allow KNN on 23-27k PA to come onto their turf, for safety for one (monkeys with screwdrivers) and for protectionism. That makes a job like that suddenly super expensive. Take BTs price per m and triple or quadruple it.

Somebody in the know (digiman maybe) pointed out before that SIRO/ESBTelco weren't even offering backhaul from the rural POPS to regional exchange points, so all you were getting is a link from a 10kV station to a house, rest was up to you....

They will never run fibre across their rural network, just take a look at it next time you're in the countryside.

WestyJon · 01-02-2018 03:07AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Whatever it costs, it needs to be done.
Estimates for the existing NBP were for something around 1.25 billion.
So what if it costs 2 x that, and the fibre runs are in public ownership.

At this time cost has to take last place. The job needs to be done.

I think this makes my point better than I did. The situation is getting ridiculous fast. It is getting to the stage where cost is falling down the priority list, if we're not there already. The political will for drastic intervention isn't there yet, unfortunately. I hope it arrives soon.

Jim

Marlow · 01-02-2018 09:29AM

fritzelly wrote: »

You talking about the 300k?
https://www.comreg.ie/publication/review-certain-matters-relating-access-eirs-rural-ftth-network/

I'm sure 'something' will be sorted out, same as in the UK

No. He means their infrastructure in general, like for example dark fiber.

ED E wrote: »

This has been discussed in the SIRO threads.

ESB have:
ESB glass - to each main substation for monitoring equipment so Dublin can see live data no matter what
ESB Telecomms - renting glass to the likes of HEANET

This all goes on the HV network. High cost, high SLA, maintained by ESB techs on 70-100k PA.

If you want to copy this system on the low voltage distro network youll have to pay ESB techs to do it, they won't ever allow KNN on 23-27k PA to come onto their turf, for safety for one (monkeys with screwdrivers) and for protectionism. That makes a job like that suddenly super expensive. Take BTs price per m and triple or quadruple it.

Somebody in the know (digiman maybe) pointed out before that SIRO/ESBTelco weren't even offering backhaul from the rural POPS to regional exchange points, so all you were getting is a link from a 10kV station to a house, rest was up to you....

Siro has processes in place, when it comes to overhead lines, where linesman gets involved. It just can extend the installation timeframe from the typical week to 30 days.

They don't provide backhaul at all. Every provider has to buy that themselves and meet them at every town they want to connect.

ESBt sells to quite a few more than just Heanet. Digiweb, Airwire, even eNet and a lot of others use them for backhaul around the country.

/M

plodder · 01-02-2018 09:33AM

Richard Moate was interviewed on Morning Ireland just there. Some points off the top of my head:
- new owners of Eir had no role in decision to pull out
- two general issues leading to poor business case for Eir:
-- onerous contract terms eg requirement to set up new wholesale division separate from existing open eir.
-- looming row over wholesale prices. There's a proposal apparently to cut them significantly.

He didn't say it, but it looks to me like it's the last point that is the main reason. It sounds like there's going to be a big row over wholesale prices and they obviously can't fight that if they've signed up to the NBP with specific commitments on prices. So, while Moate was saying all the right things to not land Naughton in the hot water, I don't think the way forward is at all clear.

Marlow · 01-02-2018 09:35AM

That fight on pricing and the further separation of the wholesale decision is coming non the less.

It has to.

/M

plodder · 01-02-2018 09:57AM

Marlow wrote: »

That fight on pricing and the further separation of the wholesale decision is coming non the less.

It has to.

/M

Further separation sounds reasonable, but what he said was that the NBP was requiring a completely new wholesale division, so they'd end up with two of them. Existing open eir and another one for the NBP.

I fear the fight on pricing will delay matters significantly.

turbbo · 01-02-2018 10:55AM

the whole year inn wrote: »

There is no reason to keep a phone with Eir now.I live in a rural part and was hoping eir would reach my parents house.I am going to tell them to get rid of the line and look at broadband else where.I would hazard a guess that alot of people are like my parents and have mobile phones..
I have no option but to get Satelite for them now.Such a disgrace by the country..

I did that last year on 4g now - probably will stay on it until FTTH drops in price - it's a complete rip off at the moment anyways.

oscarBravo · 01-02-2018 11:40AM

Danny Boy wrote: »

They will never run fibre across their rural network, just take a look at it next time you're in the countryside.

I live in the countryside, and I don't see any reason not to run fibre on the rural electricity network. Anyone in a SIRO town, if they know what to look for, should be able to spot a fourth wire appearing on some 10kV three-phase lines.

turbbo · 01-02-2018 11:45AM

Seems to be crazy not to use the ESB. Semi state - should act like a semi state and take on the job. Waiting for parasites like Eir is madness.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 01-02-2018 12:27PM

plodder wrote: »

Further separation sounds reasonable, but what he said was that the NBP was requiring a completely new wholesale division, so they'd end up with two of them. Existing open eir and another one for the NBP.

I fear the fight on pricing will delay matters significantly.

Exactly. Any change to access prices or rules is going to be fought tooth and nail by eir. I fear massive delays and there is a chance the build never gets started.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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