The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

One eyed Jack · 10-01-2018 08:16PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

That statement carries as much meaning as me saying "abortion has no place in modern Ireland", because society has progressed a massive amount in the last 30 odd years!

You asked the question does EOTR trust women, and by that I assume you mean does the person you're asking trust women to make decisions for themselves when they have the full capacity and freedom and resources to make decisions for themselves. On that basis, yes, of course I trust women.

The people I don't trust is anyone who would exploit someone else's lack of decision making capacity to coerce anyone into making decisions they wouldn't normally make for themselves that aren't in their best interests, but which serve the interests of those people encouraging them towards an outcome which suits that persons best interests.

sondagefaux · 10-01-2018 08:17PM

RobertKK wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

The problem with that analogy is that abortion is not tax. In many cases, it is simply not possible for a woman to travel to get an abortion because of poor health, or in some cases, a woman who travels for an abortion may face greater risks of death or damage to her long term health as a result of the travel.

If you need an abortion to help save your eyesight (a real life example is the Tysiac case from Poland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tysiąc_v_Poland), the extra stress on your body caused by a long journey could make it difficult for you to leave the state to have an abortion.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 08:17PM

RobertKK wrote: »

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

sondagefaux · 10-01-2018 08:27PM

RobertKK wrote: »

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

Why should they 'move on'? Has the decision of the US Supreme Court in Roe vs Wade (which effectively legalised abortion in the USA) led to the anti-choice movement in the USA moving on?

Ireland is a democracy. The absolute essence of democracy is the ability to change past decisions. If the upcoming referendum does not result in the current constitutional restrictions on abortion being removed, nobody should have to drop their wish to see that changed.

Equally, if the upcoming referendum does change the Constitution, anti-choice campaigners have every right to continue to campaign for what they want.

Democracy isn't a one-off event. It's an ongoing process. Just because you find yourself on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean you have to stop campaigning for what you believe in or that you can't campaign for the result of that vote to be changed through another vote.

end of the road · 10-01-2018 08:29PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

it 100% doesn't. the 2 statements don't contradict each other at all. i can say i trust women and disagree with abortion being availible in ireland outside extreme circumstances.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

as a whole it doesn't, but the bit that gives protection to the unborn does.

captbarnacles wrote: »

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

i believe the protections remaining for the unborn being at the expence of affordible abortion within the state is for the best yes . sometimes choices have to be made for the greater good of society.

RobertKK · 10-01-2018 08:31PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

I don't know anyone who is supporting repeal in my circle of friends. It is not like the marriage referendum where it wasn't a life and death matter. that had a 12% margin over the 50%. There won't be a large appetite for what is being proposed to replace it. The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.
Even the Taoiseach thinks the open ended 12 week any reason abortion proposal makes it questionable if the referendum will pass.

Loafing Oaf · 10-01-2018 08:32PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

thee glitz · 10-01-2018 09:16PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

uptherebels · 10-01-2018 09:23PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

why?

Da Boss · 10-01-2018 09:48PM

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Fred Swanson · 10-01-2018 09:51PM

This post has been deleted.

Loafing Oaf · 10-01-2018 10:01PM

uptherebels wrote: »

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

why?

Just very difficult politically, the government would be accused of asking the same question over and over until it got the answer it wanted.

Akrasia · 10-01-2018 10:05PM

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

bodily autonomy is a right.

The next time someone from the government turns up telling you that you have been conscripted into a medical drug trial you might remember that.

We value autonomy so much that we don't harvest organs from the dead without express consent even if doing so would save the lives of innocent children

One eyed Jack · 10-01-2018 10:14PM

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here.

That statement actually shows a terrible lack of faith in the Irish electorate in that they must only have have 'seen sense' according to you, if a referendum on the issue fails. Seems a tad egotistical, not to mention that you're unlikely to see anyone's face on here regardless of the outcome of any referendum.

Personally, I wouldn't be so confident of the outcome either way, as contrary to earlier opinion I really don't think there is actually that much of an appetite for change in this country, let alone much of an interest in the issue of abortion. I imagine the electoral turnout will be somewhere along the lines of 60% with a 55/45 split in the vote that could go in either direction.

They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

I doubt there will be anyone that shocked, fatigued probably, but not shocked, and I wouldn't encourage any goading of either side no matter the outcome of the referendum. I really don't see it having any significant effect on Irish society at local and community level, but I expect to see the effects at national level in say about 50 years time when we can gather enough data to observe trends to see an overall picture rather than arguing using a handful of outlier cases.

NuMarvel · 10-01-2018 10:14PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

Polls say that the type of change being proposed and discussed is favoured by the majority of people,so pro choicers are the ones in the middle on this.

But even if that wasn't the case, realistically, repeal needs to happen to effect any type of change. The Constitution isn't the place to try and provide for abortion, and the 8th has shown us that. That was supposed to be a simple provision to bolster the existing statutory ban on abortion, and it has resulted in numerous cases in the High and Supreme Courts, four, soon to be five, referendums, and Ireland cited for breaches of human rights on multiple occasions. And that's all on a national level, without getting into the effect it has on individual people.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the AG back in 1983 argued against the text that was voted on. In his words, "the subject matter of the amendment sought is of such complexity, involves so many matters of medical and scientific, moral and jurisprudential expertise as to be incapable of accurate encapsulation into a simple constitution-type provision." That , especially the bolded part, holds true to pretty much anything we'd put into the constitution about abortion.

_Dara_ · 10-01-2018 10:19PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Ok, this is something that I have never delved into on these threads because it isn't relevant, and could be perceived as point scoring, but seeing as your response was so aggressive, I will tell you something.
I have had a crisis, unplanned pregnancy. At quite a young age. I progressed with the pregnancy. I kept the baby. I ended up having a stillbirth, but the point remains.
So don't for a minute tell me I'm pro abortion. I'm not.
I still support having a choice for others. Its not a choice I would make for myself but who knows what the future holds.
It is possible to be both. I am both.

All that would make you pro-choice in general and in your own life. Proceeding with the crisis pregnancy is consistent with a pro-choice stance. Pro-choice and pro-abortion aren’t synonymous. By making a distinction by saying you are pro-life for yourselves makes it seem like you are saying they ARE synonymous. The choice bit means the choose between continuing with the pregnancy and having an abortion.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 10:27PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

All that would make you pro-choice in general and in your own life. Proceeding with the crisis pregnancy is consistent with a pro-choice stance. Pro-choice and pro-abortion aren’t synonymous. By making a distinction by saying you are pro-life for yourselves makes it seem like you are saying they ARE synonymous. The choice bit means the choose between continuing with the pregnancy and having an abortion.

I would agree that in a general sense I am pro choice, totally.
My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

I then made the point you quoted when someone else said I was 100% pro abortion and didn’t have a pro life bone in my body, or something to that effect. Which simply isn’t true.
I ageee in a wider sense I’m pro choice, though.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 10:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

it 100% doesn't. the 2 statements don't contradict each other at all. i can say i trust women and disagree with abortion being availible in ireland outside extreme circumstances.

as a whole it doesn't, but the bit that gives protection to the unborn does.

i believe the protections remaining for the unborn being at the expence of affordible abortion within the state is for the best yes . sometimes choices have to be made for the greater good of society.

If you really don’t see how you are contradicting yourself then there is absolutely no point in taking this any further.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 10:31PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't know anyone who is supporting repeal in my circle of friends. It is not like the marriage referendum where it wasn't a life and death matter. that had a 12% margin over the 50%. There won't be a large appetite for what is being proposed to replace it. The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.
Even the Taoiseach thinks the open ended 12 week any reason abortion proposal makes it questionable if the referendum will pass.

And on the contrary, everyone in my circle, from work colleagues to elderly relatives, are in support of repealing.
I wouldn’t hold much weight in the Taoiseach, public support for him is at all all time low and he is afraid of doing anything that will rock the boat.
I don’t think it’ll be a landslide win by all means, if it passes it will be by a very small margin.

Candamir · 10-01-2018 10:33PM

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Who are the pro abortion contingent here? I haven’t seen any evidence of anyone advocating that women should have abortions. Only that women should have a choice in what they do. And as has been said, those same people would rather see no abortions be needed, so in that sense are very much ‘pro life’.

SEPT 23 1989 · 10-01-2018 10:33PM

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

They think it will be like the marraige equality referendum

Nothing could be further from the truth

NuMarvel · 10-01-2018 10:35PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I would agree that in a general sense I am pro choice, totally.
My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

I then made the point you quoted when someone else said I was 100% pro abortion and didn’t have a pro life bone in my body, or something to that effect. Which simply isn’t true.
I ageee in a wider sense I’m pro choice, though.

We have a "pro life" poster who won't stop women having abortions if they've "really thought about" whether they want one, and another who might stop someone having one, but he wouldn't be "unreasonable" about it.

If it's okay for them to describe themselves as pro life, then you definitely can, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 10:37PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

Well I can only speak for myself but I have posted at length here about the other implications of the 8th, from maternity care, to consent.
I think any reason deemed good enough by a woman and her doctor is good enough to procure an abortion, if she feels it’s the best decision. Even more so in the cases of FFA and special circumstances, but I’m in support of leaving that decision up to the woman.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 10:44PM

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Legal abortion will be available in this country at some point in the near future. This is undeniable.
I’m not saying it will be in the next referendum, but it will be passed eventually.
However, you have nothing to worry about; because you will never be forced to have an abortion.
Men and women will finally be equal in terms of bodily autonomy. Every aspect of pregnancy will be safer. I can’t wait for Ireland to join every other progressive modern country in the world.

Edward M · 10-01-2018 10:58PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well I can only speak for myself but I have posted at length here about the other implications of the 8th, from maternity care, to consent.
I think any reason deemed good enough by a woman and her doctor is good enough to procure an abortion, if she feels it’s the best decision. Even more so in the cases of FFA and special circumstances, but I’m in support of leaving that decision up to the woman.

By a woman and her doctor?
So if a doctor deems it unnecessary she shouldn't have it?
I honestly didn't get that from your previous posts!

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 11:03PM

Edward M wrote: »

By a woman and her doctor?
So if a doctor deems it unnecessary she shouldn't have it?
I honestly didn't get that from your previous posts!

I’ll word it better. I feel it’s between a woman and her doctor and it’s none of my business.

uptherebels · 10-01-2018 11:03PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They think it will be like the marraige equality referendum

Nothing could be further from the truth

and you have evidence to back that claim up?

One eyed Jack · 10-01-2018 11:03PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

WhiteRoses while I do get what you're saying, the bit in bold is I think anyway what causes confusion for people. You're not in favour of abortion for yourself. Well, isn't that a choice that you have made, for yourself?

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can’t wait for Ireland to join every other progressive modern country in the world.

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

Fred Swanson · 10-01-2018 11:05PM

This post has been deleted.

uptherebels · 10-01-2018 11:06PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

or if you see it as the removal of a law that hinders the medical care of pregnant women;)

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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