The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

dr.fuzzenstein · 10-01-2018 04:41PM

I don't know why people INSIST on arguing with someone who has made their position crystal clear, who is not going to budge and will engage in deflection, hairsplitting, diffusion, moving the goalposts and if all else fails resort to a childish game of "IS!", "ISN'T!", "IS!", "ISN'T!"
This is Kindergarten stuff, it's like the kid that pretended the sky was orange and would drive some other kid absolutely insane arguing otherwise.
In a debate there will always be people who will chose a side and stick to it no matter what and will not be turned. Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the end we'll have to see who wins the day come decision time.

end of the road · 10-01-2018 04:44PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

This just shows, and proves, for a fact, that you don't trust women.

it doesn't prove anything of the sort as it isn't true. my position is that by not providing it in the state, less abortions ultimately happen.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Do you not think women "really think" about whether they "really want" an abortion, before the fact?
Or do they just treat it as something similar to buying a pint of milk on the way home from work?

Do you not believe, and trust, women to give due consideration to something that will undoubtedly effect the course of the rest of their lives, something that will be emotionally and physically draining?

i don't believe they treat it like buying a pint of milk no nor have i ever claimed as such.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

So do you trust women or not? If you do, then you must believe they will "really think about it", whether they get one in Ireland or abroad. If not, then its clear you have an underlying motive in your lack of support for repealing the 8th.

i already stated why i'm against the repeal of the 8th on the basis of what is being offered. i have stated that if abortion on demand wasn't going to be legislated for i would be in 100% support of repeal.

NuMarvel · 10-01-2018 04:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

by refusing to provide abortion in ireland, we make people really think about whether they actually want that abortion. if they really want it, they will go to england to have it.

So killing someone is wrong (because that's how you view abortion) unless the woman can show they really want to do it, in which case, off with them, you won't do anything to stop them. And you call yourself pro life... :rolleyes:

I hope you never become a bodyguard, because your clients are guaranteed goners with that attitude!

:D

end of the road · 10-01-2018 05:00PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

So killing someone is wrong (because that's how you view abortion) unless the woman can show they really want to do it, in which case, off with them, you won't do anything to stop them. And you call yourself pro life...

I hope you never become a bodyguard, because your clients are guaranteed goners with that attitude!

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

January · 10-01-2018 05:03PM

But again, what if she really wants it but can't afford it?

frag420 · 10-01-2018 05:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

I have asked you before but you waited for someone else to answer for you before you replied but anyways...

What if your partner fell pregnant and told you she wanted an abortion, she was adamant that she wanted one and was booking a flight this weekend to the UK to procure a termination!

Now you have ample opportunities to stop her leaving, what would you do in this instance to protect the unborn?

And I ask you to please be an adult about it and reply sensibly...none of this 'it would never happen', 'I dont have a partner so I cant answer', 'she would not think like that' etc etc...

NuMarvel · 10-01-2018 05:18PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

You keep saying you can't stop someone, but you said yourself you were against changing the constitution to make it easier to do that, so it's not a case of you can't, but that you don't want to.

A simple way to be absolutely certain would be to ask you if you'd be in favour of stopping someone if it were legally possible, but we all know you'd twist and turn to get out of that question. You'd ignore it, or claim it's an irrelevant question, or claim it's a question meant to entrap you, or some other such nonsense. You'd do everything except answer the question unequivocally. It would be a waste of time to ask.

So in the absence of your willingness to be direct, I'm going to form an opinion on what you say and don't say, and it is my opinion, based on your posts in this thread, that even if we could stop someone travelling for an abortion, you wouldn't do it anyway.

frag420 · 10-01-2018 05:32PM

The thing with EOTR is, he likes to think he is a shining light for the unborn, someone who will fight for their right to life, a ray of hope if you will!?

And he revels in this, he truly believes he is saving lives as delusional as it sounds!!

But when it comes to the crunch he has not got the balls to do anything to save the life of the unborn if it means he has to come out from behind his keyboard and be proactive, to actually do something like stop someone from travelling for a termination! I asked him a short while ago what he wold do if his partner wanted to procure an abortion and I am damn sure he wont answer me as we all know he would not have the balls to stop her (assuming he has a partner, but it was a hypothetical)

EOTR is actually enabling the death of the unborn in his lack of actions and love of the keyboard and should be ashamed for being such a weak hypocrite!!

NuMarvel wrote: »

You keep saying you can't stop someone, but you said yourself you were against changing the constitution to make it easier to do that, so it's not a case of you can't, but that you don't want to.

A simple way to be absolutely certain would be to ask you if you'd be in favour of stopping someone if it were legally possible, but we all know you'd twist and turn to get out of that question. You'd ignore it, or claim it's an irrelevant question, or claim it's a question meant to entrap you, or some other such nonsense. You'd do everything except answer the question unequivocally. It would be a waste of time to ask.

So in the absence of your willingness to be direct, I'm going to form an opinion on what you say and don't say, and it is my opinion, based on your posts in this thread, that even if we could stop someone travelling for an abortion, you wouldn't do it anyway.

Loafing Oaf · 10-01-2018 05:32PM

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0110/932212-eighth-amendment-abortion/

The Taoiseach has said there is concern among many politicians that the proposal to allow abortions in Ireland without restrictions up to 12 weeks may go one step too far for the majority of the public.

So is Leo genuinely torn about how to proceed, or is this bout of public hand-wringing choreographed to show conservative FG voters that he didn't go over to the dark (pro-choice) side without a struggle? I find it hard to believe he would fail to embrace the committee's at this stage, given how many of his ministers have come out in support of them...

....... · 10-01-2018 05:47PM

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kylith · 10-01-2018 05:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't prove anything of the sort as it isn't true. my position is that by not providing it in the state, less abortions ultimately happen.

Your continuing refusal to answer the question can only mean that WhiteRoses is right; you do not trust women.

Akrasia · 10-01-2018 05:58PM

The morning after pill makes women violently ill. When I was younger, a former girlfriend had to take one after the condom broke and she spent a whole day throwing up. Not a pleasant experience. I can only imagine that an abortion pill is equally if not more unpleasant for the woman to take.

Talk of women using abortion as routine contraception is absolute nonsense. So if women aren't using abortion as contraception, than crisis pregnancies are all examples of women really not wanting to be pregnant and prepared to put up with the procedure of an abortion to make that happen.

Anyone who thinks abortions happen on a whim or because some woman hasn't fully thought it through is full of sh1t.

And this is before we talk about all the tragic circumstances that can happen to cause a woman to need an abortion other than a failure of contraception. Rape, incest, fatal foetal abormality, ectopic pregnancy, fetal abnormalities, life threatening conditions like preeclampsia etc...

pilly · 10-01-2018 06:00PM

Waste of time lads, I've said it over and over again (not as often as EOTR), it's ruining more threads for me on Boards than anything else.

The relentless on and on and on.

....... · 10-01-2018 06:01PM

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end of the road · 10-01-2018 06:48PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i do not engage in any of what you claim. i have engaged with nearly everyone on this thread. all i have done is express an opinion. some don't agree with it and that's fine but those who spend time expressing an opinion on the posters (mostly opinions about me) rather then the topic are the ones causing the problem.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i have done nothing but debate throughout this thread. i understand you disagree with my views and that is fair enough but it doesn't change the reality that i have debated in good faith dispite all the attacks thrown at me.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

again this is a false representation and twisting of what was said by me within my posts. disagreeing with abortion on demand does not mean i hate women. i don't hate women, i'm the extreme opposite. i just disagree with abortion being provided within the irish state bar extreme circumstances.
if by claiming that i hate women, people are trying to shame me or make me feel guilty for my view then they are wasting their time because i don't. i'm not ashamed that i disagree with abortion on demand.

kylith wrote: »

Your continuing refusal to answer the question can only mean that WhiteRoses is right; you do not trust women.

i have answered the question. whiteroses has been wrong on all the false allegations she has made against me on this thread.

kylith · 10-01-2018 07:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

i have answered the question. whiteroses has been wrong on all the false allegations she has made against me on this thread.

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed that. Could you link to the post where you say whether or not you trust women?

Martina1991 · 10-01-2018 07:09PM

end of the road wrote:

i don't hate women, far from it. i just disagree with abortion being provided within the irish state bar extreme circumstances..... i'm not ashamed that i disagree with abortion on demand.

An unwanted unplanned pregnancy is an extreme circumstance.

Determining the fate of a potential life is extreme.

You use the term "abortion on demand" and it comes across like you think women don't put serious thought and consideration before deciding to have an abortion.

No same woman would use an abortion as an alternative to contraception.

It is the last resort.

dr.fuzzenstein · 10-01-2018 07:11PM

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

end of the road · 10-01-2018 07:24PM

kylith wrote: »

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed that. Could you link to the post where you say whether or not you trust women?

there are too many in the thread but have a look back through the last couple of pages and you will find a couple.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 07:33PM

end of the road wrote: »

there are too many in the thread but have a look back through the last couple of pages and you will find a couple.

Well can you just clarify then? Do you trust women?
And if you do, do you not trust them to give due consideration as to whether to have an abortion or not?
Yes or no answers will do.

end of the road · 10-01-2018 07:37PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well can you just clarify then? Do you trust women?

And if you do, do you not trust them to give due consideration as to whether to have an abortion or not?
Yes or no answers will do.

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

RobertKK · 10-01-2018 07:38PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 07:39PM

end of the road wrote: »

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

So you do trust women to give significant thought as to whether to have an abortion or not?

Just double checking because you earlier said that you wanted to make them ‘really think’, which would imply you don’t trust them.

end of the road · 10-01-2018 07:48PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

So you do trust women to give significant thought as to whether to have an abortion or not?

Just double checking because you earlier said that you wanted to make them ‘really think’, which would imply you don’t trust them.

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

Kurtosis · 10-01-2018 07:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

So which are the real issues that once we've sorted, you'll be happy for "abortion on demand" to be introduced?

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 07:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

SusieBlue · 10-01-2018 07:58PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

sondagefaux · 10-01-2018 08:07PM

end of the road wrote: »

NuMarvel wrote: »

So killing someone is wrong (because that's how you view abortion) unless the woman can show they really want to do it, in which case, off with them, you won't do anything to stop them. And you call yourself pro life...

I hope you never become a bodyguard, because your clients are guaranteed goners with that attitude!

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

You can if you want to. You might end up in prison but if you really wanted to you could.

More realistically, there's nothing to stop you from campaigning for the repeal of the article in the constitution which permits women to leave the state to get abortions.

Finally, if you want women to 'really think' about getting an abortion, why not call for the law to require women to notify their intent to get an abortion, with a mandatory waiting period of three weeks between notification and actually getting the abortion, along with a legal requirement to get counselling about their intentions during the three week waiting period?

There could be exceptions for urgent cases where lives are in danger etc.

I mean if you don't think women are capable of making these decisions on their own, or think that they might make decisions hastily, a mandatory waiting period and mandatory counselling make sense, right?

captbarnacles · 10-01-2018 08:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

RobertKK · 10-01-2018 08:15PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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