nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

__________________

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Da Boss

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

uptherebels

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

why?

thee glitz

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

Loafing Oaf

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

RobertKK

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

I don't know anyone who is supporting repeal in my circle of friends. It is not like the marriage referendum where it wasn't a life and death matter. that had a 12% margin over the 50%. There won't be a large appetite for what is being proposed to replace it. The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.
Even the Taoiseach thinks the open ended 12 week any reason abortion proposal makes it questionable if the referendum will pass.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

it 100% doesn't. the 2 statements don't contradict each other at all. i can say i trust women and disagree with abortion being availible in ireland outside extreme circumstances.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

as a whole it doesn't, but the bit that gives protection to the unborn does.

captbarnacles wrote: »

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

i believe the protections remaining for the unborn being at the expence of affordible abortion within the state is for the best yes . sometimes choices have to be made for the greater good of society.

sondagefaux

RobertKK wrote: »

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

Why should they 'move on'? Has the decision of the US Supreme Court in Roe vs Wade (which effectively legalised abortion in the USA) led to the anti-choice movement in the USA moving on?

Ireland is a democracy. The absolute essence of democracy is the ability to change past decisions. If the upcoming referendum does not result in the current constitutional restrictions on abortion being removed, nobody should have to drop their wish to see that changed.

Equally, if the upcoming referendum does change the Constitution, anti-choice campaigners have every right to continue to campaign for what they want.

Democracy isn't a one-off event. It's an ongoing process. Just because you find yourself on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean you have to stop campaigning for what you believe in or that you can't campaign for the result of that vote to be changed through another vote.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

sondagefaux

RobertKK wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

The problem with that analogy is that abortion is not tax. In many cases, it is simply not possible for a woman to travel to get an abortion because of poor health, or in some cases, a woman who travels for an abortion may face greater risks of death or damage to her long term health as a result of the travel.

If you need an abortion to help save your eyesight (a real life example is the Tysiac case from Poland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tysiąc_v_Poland), the extra stress on your body caused by a long journey could make it difficult for you to leave the state to have an abortion.

One eyed Jack

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

That statement carries as much meaning as me saying "abortion has no place in modern Ireland", because society has progressed a massive amount in the last 30 odd years!

You asked the question does EOTR trust women, and by that I assume you mean does the person you're asking trust women to make decisions for themselves when they have the full capacity and freedom and resources to make decisions for themselves. On that basis, yes, of course I trust women.

The people I don't trust is anyone who would exploit someone else's lack of decision making capacity to coerce anyone into making decisions they wouldn't normally make for themselves that aren't in their best interests, but which serve the interests of those people encouraging them towards an outcome which suits that persons best interests.

RobertKK

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

captbarnacles

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

sondagefaux

end of the road wrote: »

NuMarvel wrote: »

So killing someone is wrong (because that's how you view abortion) unless the woman can show they really want to do it, in which case, off with them, you won't do anything to stop them. And you call yourself pro life...

I hope you never become a bodyguard, because your clients are guaranteed goners with that attitude!

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

You can if you want to. You might end up in prison but if you really wanted to you could.

More realistically, there's nothing to stop you from campaigning for the repeal of the article in the constitution which permits women to leave the state to get abortions.

Finally, if you want women to 'really think' about getting an abortion, why not call for the law to require women to notify their intent to get an abortion, with a mandatory waiting period of three weeks between notification and actually getting the abortion, along with a legal requirement to get counselling about their intentions during the three week waiting period?

There could be exceptions for urgent cases where lives are in danger etc.

I mean if you don't think women are capable of making these decisions on their own, or think that they might make decisions hastily, a mandatory waiting period and mandatory counselling make sense, right?

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

Kurtosis

end of the road wrote: »

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

So which are the real issues that once we've sorted, you'll be happy for "abortion on demand" to be introduced?

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

So you do trust women to give significant thought as to whether to have an abortion or not?

Just double checking because you earlier said that you wanted to make them ‘really think’, which would imply you don’t trust them.

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

So you do trust women to give significant thought as to whether to have an abortion or not?

Just double checking because you earlier said that you wanted to make them ‘really think’, which would imply you don’t trust them.

RobertKK

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well can you just clarify then? Do you trust women?

And if you do, do you not trust them to give due consideration as to whether to have an abortion or not?
Yes or no answers will do.

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

there are too many in the thread but have a look back through the last couple of pages and you will find a couple.

Well can you just clarify then? Do you trust women?
And if you do, do you not trust them to give due consideration as to whether to have an abortion or not?
Yes or no answers will do.

end of the road

kylith wrote: »

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed that. Could you link to the post where you say whether or not you trust women?

there are too many in the thread but have a look back through the last couple of pages and you will find a couple.

dr.fuzzenstein

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

Martina1991

end of the road wrote:

i don't hate women, far from it. i just disagree with abortion being provided within the irish state bar extreme circumstances..... i'm not ashamed that i disagree with abortion on demand.

An unwanted unplanned pregnancy is an extreme circumstance.

Determining the fate of a potential life is extreme.

You use the term "abortion on demand" and it comes across like you think women don't put serious thought and consideration before deciding to have an abortion.

No same woman would use an abortion as an alternative to contraception.

It is the last resort.

kylith

end of the road wrote: »

i have answered the question. whiteroses has been wrong on all the false allegations she has made against me on this thread.

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed that. Could you link to the post where you say whether or not you trust women?

end of the road

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i do not engage in any of what you claim. i have engaged with nearly everyone on this thread. all i have done is express an opinion. some don't agree with it and that's fine but those who spend time expressing an opinion on the posters (mostly opinions about me) rather then the topic are the ones causing the problem.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i have done nothing but debate throughout this thread. i understand you disagree with my views and that is fair enough but it doesn't change the reality that i have debated in good faith dispite all the attacks thrown at me.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

again this is a false representation and twisting of what was said by me within my posts. disagreeing with abortion on demand does not mean i hate women. i don't hate women, i'm the extreme opposite. i just disagree with abortion being provided within the irish state bar extreme circumstances.
if by claiming that i hate women, people are trying to shame me or make me feel guilty for my view then they are wasting their time because i don't. i'm not ashamed that i disagree with abortion on demand.

kylith wrote: »

Your continuing refusal to answer the question can only mean that WhiteRoses is right; you do not trust women.

i have answered the question. whiteroses has been wrong on all the false allegations she has made against me on this thread.

.......

This post has been deleted.

pilly

Waste of time lads, I've said it over and over again (not as often as EOTR), it's ruining more threads for me on Boards than anything else.

The relentless on and on and on.

Akrasia

The morning after pill makes women violently ill. When I was younger, a former girlfriend had to take one after the condom broke and she spent a whole day throwing up. Not a pleasant experience. I can only imagine that an abortion pill is equally if not more unpleasant for the woman to take.

Talk of women using abortion as routine contraception is absolute nonsense. So if women aren't using abortion as contraception, than crisis pregnancies are all examples of women really not wanting to be pregnant and prepared to put up with the procedure of an abortion to make that happen.

Anyone who thinks abortions happen on a whim or because some woman hasn't fully thought it through is full of sh1t.

And this is before we talk about all the tragic circumstances that can happen to cause a woman to need an abortion other than a failure of contraception. Rape, incest, fatal foetal abormality, ectopic pregnancy, fetal abnormalities, life threatening conditions like preeclampsia etc...