The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

end of the road · 06-01-2018 08:45PM

Simi wrote: »

You also seem to be entirely fine with abortion, so long as it doesn't happen here.

i am okay with it in extreme circumstances yes, something i have been clear about throughout the thread. outside that, i'm not fine with it, but i have to be realistic, and the reality is we cannot stop someone going abroad to procure one, it's not feasible as other people would be effected if the state tried to implement such a plan.

Simi wrote: »

Even going so far as to say that women should be provided with aftercare on their return from their illegal (under current Irish law) abortion abroad.

because it would be wrong to leave those people to suffer with an infection or even worse after having that abortion abroad. i believe that if people are going to go abroad to have an abortion, then making the abortion difficult and expensive to have is the best thing and that is happening, hence fewer abortions.

NuMarvel · 06-01-2018 08:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

i have to be realistic, and the reality is we cannot stop I don't want to stop someone going abroad to procure one

Fixed that for you.

end of the road wrote: »

it's not feasible as other people would be effected if the state tried to implement such a plan.

So you want to stop abortions unless it inconveniences other people. You're really showing the depths of your pro life stance there bud.

Annasopra · 06-01-2018 09:02PM

end of the road wrote: »

which means it stops some abortions. poorer women will continue to struggle to afford an abortion even if it was legislated for in ireland, unless the tax payer ends up forking out for it, which will likely mean other treatments which would be necessary seeing funding reduced, or new necessary treatments not being able to be funded. the irish state can't afford abortion on demand, there are actual important issues which the health service needs to fund.

anyone who has an abortion on demand basically. they are doing it because the pregnancy is inconvenient to them. so i can see why one would come to the conclusion that it's used as a form of birth control. we aren't talking about people having abortions due to necessary reasons such as threat to life, being denied life saving treatment, issues where the baby could cause a disability or cases where the baby cannot be caried to term.

So basically you want an inequality of wealthier women who can have abortions and poorer women that can't; despite the fact that having the child might actually cause further poverty and deprivation of the woman, her existing child and her baby.

What about poorer with FFAs? Should we really continue this sick disgusting charade of this state of forcing them to bring their babies to term in order to die a few days later. The 8th doesnt save those babies and treats their mothers completely inhumanely and marginalises them even further because of their socio economic status.

A friend of mine had an FFA.

She couldnt afford to travel. The inhumamity of this is beyond me.

Pro forced birthers are all very moralistic about the life itself but never consider at all the circumstances of what the baby is being born into.

Annasopra · 06-01-2018 09:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

that is why things as they are work well, those who want abortions can avail of them

Bizarre. You are ok with a pro choice stance. Not on my Island. NIMBYISM at its worst.

Annasopra · 06-01-2018 09:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

the reality is we cannot stop someone going abroad to procure one,

This is just absolute bunkum and drivel. Of course the state can ban travel. The state injuncted Ms X from travelling. We had a referendum to guarantee the ability to travel. The reality is pro forced birthers dont want to reverse the 13th amendment. They are happy with a hypocrytical NIMBYIST not on my Island attitude.

Annabella1 · 06-01-2018 09:26PM

I’m probably like the majority who will wait for the referendum text before deciding
However I think continued debate about availability of the abortion pill on the Internet will inevitably increase awareness and use up to 12 weeks gestation regardless of the referendum result

pilly · 06-01-2018 09:32PM

Here's as simple an explanation as I can give to debunk the absolutely nutters idea that abortion costs more than birth.

1 or 2 doctors appointments versus 10 months of healthcare.

Can someone please explain to EOTR cause I haven't the energy nor inclination.

Kurtosis · 06-01-2018 09:43PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is plenty of money to improve the services. without abortion on demand that means money doesn't have to be taken to fund it.

Going by your arguments (and modified quotes below), these support services will mean funding will have to come from other areas.

"the state has to prioritize. treatment for someone who is going to die, or [support services] because someone doesn't feel like they can look after a child"

"making [a child] difficult and expensive to have is the best thing and that is happening, hence fewer [people having children they feel they can't look after]."

I think that illustrates how ludicrous your economic argument is.

end of the road · 06-01-2018 09:54PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

So basically you want an inequality of wealthier women who can have abortions and poorer women that can't; despite the fact that having the child might actually cause further poverty and deprivation of the woman, her existing child and her baby.

What about poorer with FFAs? Should we really continue this sick disgusting charade of this state of forcing them to bring their babies to term in order to die a few days later. The 8th doesnt save those babies and treats their mothers completely inhumanely and marginalises them even further because of their socio economic status.

A friend of mine had an FFA.

She couldnt afford to travel. The inhumamity of this is beyond me.

Pro forced birthers are all very moralistic about the life itself but never consider at all the circumstances of what the baby is being born into.

i already stated FFA should be covered under the facilitation of abortions in extreme circumstances within the state.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Bizarre. You are ok with a pro choice stance. Not on my Island. NIMBYISM at its worst.

no, it's nothing to do with nimbyism or not on my island, it's about making people who want an abortion on demand think twice about carying out the act in the first place. that's why making them travel abroad is the best option as it's expensive.

pilly wrote: »

Here's as simple an explanation as I can give to debunk the absolutely nutters idea that abortion costs more than birth.

1 or 2 doctors appointments versus 10 months of healthcare.

Can someone please explain to EOTR cause I haven't the energy nor inclination.

it's not other people's job to do your work for you. if you believe i'm wrong, tell me yourself.

PopePalpatine · 06-01-2018 09:59PM

pilly wrote: »

Here's as simple an explanation as I can give to debunk the absolutely nutters idea that abortion costs more than birth.

1 or 2 doctors appointments versus 10 months of healthcare.

Can someone please explain to EOTR cause I haven't the energy nor inclination.

But one of those is illegal, and it should stay illegal, because it's illegal and bad, because I say so! /s

frag420 · 06-01-2018 10:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

if you believe i'm wrong, tell me yourself.

Eh we have been telling you this for weeks!!

Even people of the pro life side are not agreeing with you, I’ve discussed your nonsense with a couple of them via PM and they are franky embarrassed by you and your nonsensical “facts”!!

kylith · 06-01-2018 10:18PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Well...

"where ruptured membranes are accompanied by any clinical or bio-chemical marker of infection, Irish obstetricians understand they CAN intervene with early delivery of the baby if necessary. Unfortunately, the inquest shows that in Galway University Hospital the diagnosis of chorioamnionitis was delayed and relevant information was not noted and acted upon."

Sounds awfully to me like they could have treated her with a termination, which would have helped her condition, but they didn't.

pilly wrote: »

Here's as simple an explanation as I can give to debunk the absolutely nutters idea that abortion costs more than birth.

1 or 2 doctors appointments versus 10 months of healthcare.

Can someone please explain to EOTR cause I haven't the energy nor inclination.

Not to mention the cost of 18 years' of child support.

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:20PM

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

average_runner · 06-01-2018 10:22PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:27PM

average_runner wrote: »

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

Ah no, we are not talking about that at all. What you say is fair enough,

But what have you to say about what I said above regarding the woman and her pregnancy, if you are male of course!

Da Boss · 06-01-2018 10:28PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:31PM

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

Have you ever suffered pre eclampsia, bleeding, potential miscarriage, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration?

But I do acknowledge that you have a say but only for putting the seed in, after that the woman does everything to bring the child into the world.

You are hosting all the men who do not acknowledge that fact.

thee glitz · 06-01-2018 10:31PM

I'll reply to a few points put to me given a chance, but

end of the road wrote: »

i already stated FFA should be covered under the facilitation of abortions in extreme circumstances within the state.

You're not really allowed to do that. Being for abortion availability in the case of FFA is a pro-choice stance, used by those supporters to justify abortion on demand, while not contemplating the possibility of one without the other.

it's not other people's job to do your work for you. if you believe i'm wrong, tell me yourself.

I can't tell you you're wrong - are we, as a country getting richer or not? People are creating wealth for themselves and the state, not aborted babies. Comparing the cost of providing an abortion to a normal pregnancy is nonsense.

Annasopra · 06-01-2018 10:32PM

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

It fascinates me how much men on both sides feel they must have a say.

average_runner · 06-01-2018 10:33PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ah no, we are not talking about that at all. What you say is fair enough,

But what have you to say about what I said above regarding the woman and her pregnancy, if you are male of course!

Well I am a man. I think you have to take each decision for what it is and respect it. You got be in the scenario to understand it.

SusieBlue · 06-01-2018 10:35PM

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

I’m still awaiting a reply to my last post. I understand you being against abortion but you don’t really seem to have any alternate solution bar forcing women who don’t want to be pregnant to be pregnant. I’m really interested in hearing your opinion. I’ll quote my reply to you:

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well what is your solution? Seriously? Bar forcing someone who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant, what is the solution?
This would be a different kettle of fish if the fetus could survive without the mothers body as host. But while it cannot, while it depends on her to survive and thrive, it should be ultimately be up to her what happens it.

If I was a victim of abortion I wouldn’t know what I’d feel because I’d never have existed.
However, as a living, breathing woman, I trust my fellow women to make the best decision for themselves, and if they feel abortion is the only option then I support that fully.

I’ll also mention that I would never, ever get an abortion myself. It’s not for me.
But that could change in the future, and it isn’t for me to dictate how someone else lives their life any way. I want other women to have a choice. So I am pro choice.

Also, you’re saying I’m painting you like a gombeen but you and a few others aren’t half painting me as some sort of cold hearted feminazi.
This referendum is very very close to my heart for reasons unsuitable for this thread.
I know you feel like you are doing right by ‘saving the babies’ but I feel I’m doing right by campaigning for women to have a choice.

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:37PM

Most of the anti choice are men.

kylith · 06-01-2018 10:37PM

average_runner wrote: »

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

So you think that if a man doesn't want to have a baby he should be able to walk away, scot free, despite that fact that his behaviour is just as responsible for the existance of the pregnancy.

Do you think that a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, or do you think she should be able to access abortion services in her own country?

nice_guy80 · 06-01-2018 10:37PM

first week of January and already the Catholic church are interfering and trying to influence the probable referendum

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/archbishop-urges-catholics-to-speak-out-against-abortion-1.3347360?mode=amp

average_runner · 06-01-2018 10:38PM

kylith wrote: »

So you think that if a man doesn't want to have a baby he should be able to walk away, scot free, despite that fact that his behaviour is just as responsible for the existance of the pregnancy.

Do you think that a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, or do you think she should be able to access abortion services in her own country?

I believe both should be allow to make a choice.

Da Boss · 06-01-2018 10:39PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Have you ever suffered pre eclampsia, bleeding, potential miscarriage, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration?

But I do acknowledge that you have a say but only for putting the seed in, after that the woman does everything to bring the child into the world.

You are hosting all the men who do not acknowledge that fact.

Yes that however doesn’t mean men shouldn’t have a say, this does affect men too as I previously highlighted!!! If took time to read what I typed I would not have to repeat the fact that the eighth does indeed affect men as even I myself was an “accident “ and I thank the eighth because without it I would not be here today!! That’s the importance of it in my life!

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:40PM

average_runner wrote: »

Well I am a man. I think you have to take each decision for what it is and respect it. You got be in the scenario to understand it.

Yes of course. However there are some strident men out there in the msm telling women what to do regarding the potential repeal of the 8th.

Why so many men?

I am not talking about intimate relationships where such a decision is bound to be traumatic. I do have empathy.

average_runner · 06-01-2018 10:44PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yes of course. However there are some strident men out there in the msm telling women what to do regarding the potential repeal of the 8th.

Why so many men?

I am not talking about intimate relationships where such a decision is bound to be traumatic. I do have empathy.

I think it's to do with what this system has done to men. Outside this debate. Men have no rights when it comes to children, judges will give the children to the mother no matter how bad she is and then expect men to pay through the nose, eventually pushing a lot of men to suicide and never talked about.

06-01-2018 10:46PM

Da Boss wrote: »

the eighth does indeed affect men as even I myself was an “accident “ and I thank the eighth because without it I would not be here today!! That’s the importance of it in my life!

Did your mother tell you that?
Hey son, i only gave birth to you because I couldn't get an abortion?
That might explain somethings.............!

Spanish Eyes · 06-01-2018 10:46PM

Il Papa will be visiting here soon.

Italy has abortion. How the heck did they manage to get that introduced in such a Catholic country would someone tell me now.

Never heard a negative word about it anywhere, even though it is a cough, Catholic country.

And yes, I do know that the Vatican is not Italy.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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