The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Foxtrol · 05-01-2018 03:04PM

bruschi wrote: »

Old Coach with old QB with 2 coordinators moving on and a 17 year dynasty about to end. Interspersed with lots of unnamed sources and old rehashed stories. Its a really long winded article with little substance and a load of guesswork on something that is inevitably going to happen.

not sure why this is generating the publicity that it is, other than the fact it is a prediction of the downfall of the Patriots, which, quite rightly, most people would be happy with.

Might be a better chance of the dynasty not ending if they didn't trade away a 26 year old franchise QB for just a 41st or 42nd pick. (Though I'm very thankful for it)

j8wk2feszrnpao · 05-01-2018 03:17PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Might be a better chance of the dynasty not ending if they didn't trade away a 26 year old franchise QB for just a 41st or 42nd pick. (Though I'm very thankful for it)

Brady is likely to be MVP, still playing at a high standard. He's good to go next year. Paying the franchise tag to Jimmy to sit on the bench was seen as bad business when you may have to pay Cooks and bring in talent (Nate Soldier - left tackle, hitting free agency).
If noone was offering more than a high second round pick, the Pats would have lost him for nothing. Unless Brady goes down in the playoffs, it was better than losing him for nothing.

Billy86 · 05-01-2018 03:18PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Might be a better chance of the dynasty not ending if they didn't trade away a 26 year old franchise QB for just a 41st or 42nd pick. (Though I'm very thankful for it)

Yeah, but it's a real tricky one - Brady is basically what Favre was in GB a decade ago, but if Favre was still playing at his mid-90s level back then, and didn't have the will-he-won't-he constant retirement stuff for his last 2-3 years. NE also didn't have any prior success near this level, while GB even if decades previous had Bart Starr & Lombardi's Packers which in my opinion makes it a bit easier to move on (e.g. still idolised, but not as much as someone without a comparable player in team history).

Obviously that decision worked out excellently for GB, but I don't know that it would have been made had GB gone on to win the SB in 2007 while playing out of his mind and not been skipping camp etc due to 'retirements' that seemed to always end around preseason.

Also I 100% get your point re picks, though just wanted to point out Garoppolo went #62 and Brady #199.

bruschi · 05-01-2018 03:19PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Its a bad Business move letting Garropolo leave though. They developed him to a high standard and he appears to be a player. Surely it makes more sense to invest in him for the future.

also in addition your correct I had never heard of Guerrero. Well not directly I guess I did know Brady had some sort of life coach guy working with him and have heard of the TB12 method but just didnt know they stuff about him working with Patriots players etc

yeah I was disappointed to see JG go, but at the same time he had a very short resume to go on to put your house down on him. He looked promising, but so did Matt Flynn etc. Hindsight shows, at least for this season, that he is indeed a franchise QB. And at the time, the pick looked like it was 34th or 35th. It was the play of JG himself that has made the pick drop back down the pecking order.

Investing in him in the future would have meant dealing away TB, there was no way either of them were going to be on the bench next year. As it currently stands, if they put the house on JG and gave him a new contract, it could be seen as getting rid of the current MVP (possibly!) and keeping a 4 game player. Thats the flipside to it on keeping him. If JG had to arrive a season or 2 later than he did and still be on his rookie contract, it would have been ideal. Brady playing to a high level longer than most anticipated has been a good thing in one sense, and a bad in another in that we now have to start again to look for his longterm replacement.

Guerrero is a spoofer of the highest order, a real con man. By all accounts, he is supposed to be very nice to deal with and a sound guy, but he is dodgy as hell.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 05-01-2018 03:33PM

bruschi wrote: »

yeah I was disappointed to see JG go, but at the same time he had a very short resume to go on to put your house down on him. He looked promising, but so did Matt Flynn etc. Hindsight shows, at least for this season, that he is indeed a franchise QB. And at the time, the pick looked like it was 34th or 35th. It was the play of JG himself that has made the pick drop back down the pecking order.

Investing in him in the future would have meant dealing away TB, there was no way either of them were going to be on the bench next year. As it currently stands, if they put the house on JG and gave him a new contract, it could be seen as getting rid of the current MVP (possibly!) and keeping a 4 game player. Thats the flipside to it on keeping him. If JG had to arrive a season or 2 later than he did and still be on his rookie contract, it would have been ideal. Brady playing to a high level longer than most anticipated has been a good thing in one sense, and a bad in another in that we now have to start again to look for his longterm replacement.

Guerrero is a spoofer of the highest order, a real con man. By all accounts, he is supposed to be very nice to deal with and a sound guy, but he is dodgy as hell.

Its really a no win situation I suppose for the Patriots. The end is near regarding Brady regardless and replacing him is impossible. I thought JG looked like a decent candidate before the trade, obviously afterwards he definitely looks capable but my feelings on JG is that Belichick thought he was going to be the one to continue on with after Brady.

Billy86 · 05-01-2018 03:34PM

Great comparison re Matt Flynn (a shoulder injury also did his game a tonne of damage, but that's besides the point) - like Garoppolo he had two full games before leaving GB, one of which he absolutely murdered a poor Lions team for 480 yards and 6 TDs and another of which he and GB got within 4pts of a win in Foxborough (27-31) where he had 250 yards, 3 TDs and a 100 passer rating with just a weeks notice (Rodgers had got injured in the game previously). But plenty of players have had 1-2 excellent games and then gone on to do nothing, if I recall there was an rash of trades for those types of players somewhere around 2008-2012ish for some similar players (though probably not as impressive in limited time as Flynn/Garoppolo had been).

Now even if he had turned out to be the next Brady, Rodgers, Brees etc it would make no difference as Rodgers was only about Garopollo's age at the time, but the point does stand. A good few QBs have looked excellent for 2-3 games and then.

Having missed out on the Rams this year I'm keeping an eye on the odds for SF to win the West next year... really, really impressed by how well Shanahan kept everyone not only on board but incredibly committed and motivated even at 0-9 or whatever it was, and we know he's fantastic at getting the best out of QBs, though the rest of the team will be interesting. And while he's still quite inexperienced, Garoppolo's going to be really confident going forward, sure he's 7-0 as a starter, 4 against teams with winning records.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 05-01-2018 03:45PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Great comparison re Matt Flynn (a shoulder injury also did his game a tonne of damage, but that's besides the point) - like Garoppolo he had two full games before leaving GB, one of which he absolutely murdered a poor Lions team for 480 yards and 6 TDs and another of which he and GB got within 4pts of a win in Foxborough (27-31) where he had 250 yards, 3 TDs and a 100 passer rating with just a weeks notice (Rodgers had got injured in the game previously). But plenty of players have had 1-2 excellent games and then gone on to do nothing, if I recall there was an rash of trades for those types of players somewhere around 2008-2012ish for some similar players (though probably not as impressive in limited time as Flynn/Garoppolo had been).

Now even if he had turned out to be the next Brady, Rodgers, Brees etc it would make no difference as Rodgers was only about Garopollo's age at the time, but the point does stand. A good few QBs have looked excellent for 2-3 games and then.

Having missed out on the Rams this year I'm keeping an eye on the odds for SF to win the West next year... really, really impressed by how well Shanahan kept everyone not only on board but incredibly committed and motivated even at 0-9 or whatever it was, and we know he's fantastic at getting the best out of QBs, though the rest of the team will be interesting. And while he's still quite inexperienced, Garoppolo's going to be really confident going forward, sure he's 7-0 as a starter, 4 against teams with winning records.

Thats a tough division to win though and they wont be 25/1 like the Rams or Jags IMO. I imagine they'll be between 6 and 9/1 to do it. Still worth a flutter given how well things came together at the end but again its a tough division.

Foxtrol · 05-01-2018 03:48PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Brady is likely to be MVP, still playing at a high standard. He's good to go next year. Paying the franchise tag to Jimmy to sit on the bench was seen as bad business when you may have to pay Cooks and bring in talent (Nate Soldier - left tackle, hitting free agency).
If noone was offering more than a high second round pick, the Pats would have lost him for nothing. Unless Brady goes down in the playoffs, it was better than losing him for nothing.

By all accounts the Patriots didn't even try to get more than a 2nd round pick for him when they traded him in October. They didn't try to sell him around to see what they could get, instead they just went straight to the 49ers with the deal they ended up with.

My point was that you cannot lament the likely end to a dynasty when you balk at making tough decisions with your longterm QB. Brady might be MVP this year but I doubt you can say he is playing better than he was over the last few years and part of him being a front runner is down to no one else really standing out (or standing out and getting injured). Yes, he shows moments and drives where he looks his old (young) self but at other times he has been pretty poor.

No situation is the same but as Billy86 pointed out with GB and also SF with Montana and Young they pulled made the tough decision and moved on from the older guy and were the better long term for it.

PhuckHugh · 05-01-2018 03:53PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

By all accounts the Patriots didn't even try to get more than a 2nd round pick for him when they traded him in October. They didn't try to sell him around to see what they could get, instead they just went straight to the 49ers with the deal they ended up with.

My point was that you cannot lament the likely end to a dynasty when you balk at making tough decisions with your longterm QB. Brady might be MVP this year but I doubt you can say he is playing better than he was over the last few years and part of him being a front runner is down to no one else really standing out (or standing out and getting injured). Yes, he shows moments and drives where he looks his old (young) self but at other times he has been pretty poor.

No situation is the same but as Billy86 pointed out with GB and also SF with Montana and Young they pulled made the tough decision and moved on from the older guy and were the better long term for it.

By all accounts Bill contacted the 49ers as he thought Shanahan would be perfect for Jimmy's. He's cold when he has to be but looks out for his players / coaches also... Piss him off and he'll hold a grudge for life - Work with him and he'll love you forever..... or until he has to beat you.

Foxtrol · 05-01-2018 03:58PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Great comparison re Matt Flynn (a shoulder injury also did his game a tonne of damage, but that's besides the point) - like Garoppolo he had two full games before leaving GB, one of which he absolutely murdered a poor Lions team for 480 yards and 6 TDs and another of which he and GB got within 4pts of a win in Foxborough (27-31) where he had 250 yards, 3 TDs and a 100 passer rating with just a weeks notice (Rodgers had got injured in the game previously). But plenty of players have had 1-2 excellent games and then gone on to do nothing, if I recall there was an rash of trades for those types of players somewhere around 2008-2012ish for some similar players (though probably not as impressive in limited time as Flynn/Garoppolo had been).

Now even if he had turned out to be the next Brady, Rodgers, Brees etc it would make no difference as Rodgers was only about Garopollo's age at the time, but the point does stand. A good few QBs have looked excellent for 2-3 games and then.

Having missed out on the Rams this year I'm keeping an eye on the odds for SF to win the West next year... really, really impressed by how well Shanahan kept everyone not only on board but incredibly committed and motivated even at 0-9 or whatever it was, and we know he's fantastic at getting the best out of QBs, though the rest of the team will be interesting. And while he's still quite inexperienced, Garoppolo's going to be really confident going forward, sure he's 7-0 as a starter, 4 against teams with winning records.

Having a short resume is one thing but the Patriots drafted him only 20 picks lower than what they eventually got for him and saw the guy in practice for 4 years. Despite the small sample of game time they had to know what they had with him. It was more of a gamble from SF perspective but the risk was pretty low for the potential reward for them.

The hype train for SF will be crazy going into next season, especially if we spend some of the mountain of cash on some big name guys in FA and the potential of being on Hard Knocks. The odds won't be nearly as good as Rams but with the Seahawks and Cardinals looking like they're on a downwards trajectory I think it has a decent chance of happening.

bruschi · 05-01-2018 04:01PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

By all accounts the Patriots didn't even try to get more than a 2nd round pick for him when they traded him in October. They didn't try to sell him around to see what they could get, instead they just went straight to the 49ers with the deal they ended up with.

My point was that you cannot lament the likely end to a dynasty when you balk at making tough decisions with your longterm QB. Brady might be MVP this year but I doubt you can say he is playing better than he was over the last few years and part of him being a front runner is down to no one else really standing out (or standing out and getting injured). Yes, he shows moments and drives where he looks his old (young) self but at other times he has been pretty poor.

No situation is the same but as Billy86 pointed out with GB and also SF with Montana and Young they pulled made the tough decision and moved on from the older guy and were the better long term for it.

You can even add Manning and the Colts into that too. They all left their all time great behind to move on. As said previously, its a no win situation really. To an extent, in another way of looking at it is you let a backup go because you have the MVP on your books. Brady might not be playing as well as he has previously, but its still better than the vast vast majority of QBs out there and good enough to be leading a superbowl charge, which is all you can ask for really.

The period of dominance has to end though. In a league of parity, its inevitable. The fact they have been able to be up there so long speaks volumes and its been great to see. Yes with JG there who knows, Brady for another couple of years and then JG to take over it could keep going. But all things have to end in sports. It's virtually impossible to keep it going and you have arguable the best ever coach and the best ever QB that ever lived on the same team at the same time, it cant get better than that. If it happens next year, so be it, but hopefully it keeps going for a while yet.

Foxtrol · 05-01-2018 04:02PM

PhuckHugh wrote: »

By all accounts Bill contacted the 49ers as he thought Shanahan would be perfect for Jimmy's. He's cold when he has to be but looks out for his players / coaches also... Piss him off and he'll hold a grudge for life - Work with him and he'll love you forever..... or until he has to beat you.

That is pretty much what I've taken from word coming out of both Patriots and 49ers. It is why posters saying 'no one was offering more than a 2nd' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Patriots only asked one team for a 2nd, it doesn't mean no one else would pay more.

Knex* · 05-01-2018 04:10PM

Bring Belichick home. Giants new head coach. It's the only logical route.

bruschi · 05-01-2018 04:13PM

Knex. wrote: »

Bring Belichick home. Giants new head coach. It's the only logical route.

nah, he's going to go back to the Browns to finish what could have been.

Hard Knocks 2018, the return of Darth Vader to Cleveland

99 Bortles of Beer · 05-01-2018 04:22PM

Story seems to be a complete fabrication.

Don Yee, agent for both Brady and Garoppolo:

“I don't really know what to say - it's tough to have a response since it didn't appear to me to have one on-the-record quote. All I can suggest is don't believe everything you read.”

Joint statement from Kraft, Belichick and Brady:

"For the past 18 years, the three of us have enjoyed a very good and productive working relationship. In recent days, there have been multiple media reports that have speculated theories that are unsubstantiated, highly exaggerated or flat out inaccurate. The three of us share a common goal. We look forward to the enormous challenge of competing in the postseason and the opportunity to work together in the future, just as we have for the past 18 years. It is unfortunate that there is even a need for us to respond to these fallacies. As our actions have shown, we stand united."

Foxtrol · 05-01-2018 04:33PM

99 Bortles of Beer wrote: »

Story seems to be a complete fabrication.

Don Yee, agent for both Brady and Garoppolo:

Joint statement from Kraft, Belichick and Brady:

Sounds like the same type of response as their buddy Trump's Whitehouse about stories they don't like.

If you only read journalism from 'on the record' sources you mustn't read much.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 05-01-2018 04:36PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Sounds like the same type of response as their buddy Trump's Whitehouse about stories they don't like.

If you only read journalism from 'on the record' sources you mustn't read much.

well it's obviously not a complete fabrication either as there are elements in there about Guerrerro etc which are apparently true. Although only going on what I've seen and been corroborated by Pats fans.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 05-01-2018 05:19PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

By all accounts the Patriots didn't even try to get more than a 2nd round pick for him when they traded him in October. They didn't try to sell him around to see what they could get, instead they just went straight to the 49ers with the deal they ended up with.

My point was that you cannot lament the likely end to a dynasty when you balk at making tough decisions with your longterm QB. Brady might be MVP this year but I doubt you can say he is playing better than he was over the last few years and part of him being a front runner is down to no one else really standing out (or standing out and getting injured). Yes, he shows moments and drives where he looks his old (young) self but at other times he has been pretty poor.

No situation is the same but as Billy86 pointed out with GB and also SF with Montana and Young they pulled made the tough decision and moved on from the older guy and were the better long term for it.

Ok Trent.
The Brady situation doesn’t compare to Montana.
The end will come. And that’s fine. But we still have the best option at QB. I’d like to have kept JG till the end of the season in case Tom is injured in the playoffs. But, by trading JG, it meant that Bill wasn’t going anywhere (as the pick would mean nothing to him) and that he still thinks Tom is good to go for at least another year which is a better option than JG (even under the FT).

NufcNavan · 05-01-2018 05:27PM

I’m surprised NE was compelled to respond. Not The Patriot Way, and suggests to me that there is something there.

I do think the Jimmy G trade will haunt them. It's almost as if Belichick sold him low to spite the franchise for the future when he's no longer around. It does seem like Belichick handpicked him to go to San Francisco because he wants Jimmy G to play for Shanahan....instead of auctioning him off to the highest bidder. Belichick seems to want Jimmy G to excel so that the Pats have to eat it years down the road when he's long gone since they didn't agree with him to keep Jimmy G.

Blut2 · 05-01-2018 05:45PM

Tom Brady is going to be 41 at the start of next season. Hes in exceptional shape for his age, but his performance is going to crash sooner rather than later. Betting on the 26 year old Garoppolo would have been a far better move for the Patriots. In 2 years time if Brady is retired, JimmyG at age 28 is tearing it up for SF, and the Patriots have either a completely green QB or no decent QB at all this is going to look like a terrible piece of business.

Another poster mentioned it also but this whole thing really reminds me as well of Favre and Rodgers at Green Bay. Favre was still performing at a high level when he was pushed out the door at GB. But within two years he was finished. Choosing to keep him for that extra year or two, and losing the young Rodgers as a result, would have been a terrible move long-term for the team. It hard to do at the time but was definitely the better long term decision for the franchise betting on the talented young QB.

I wonder if perhaps Belichick sees himself retiring at the same time as Brady in a year or two's time, so wanted to see out his career with a player he knows inside out (and feels loyalty to). Thats the only logic I can see in it.

bruschi · 05-01-2018 05:49PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

I’m surprised NE was compelled to respond. Not The Patriot Way, and suggests to me that there is something there.

I do think the Jimmy G trade will haunt them. It's almost as if Belichick sold him low to spite the franchise for the future when he's no longer around. It does seem like Belichick handpicked him to go to San Francisco because he wants Jimmy G to play for Shanahan....instead of auctioning him off to the highest bidder. Belichick seems to want Jimmy G to excel so that the Pats have to eat it years down the road when he's long gone since they didn't agree with him to keep Jimmy G.

thats some mighty fine levels of tinfoil hatting there! kudos my good man!

The Patriots do respond to things like this so its nipped early and it deosnt become a distraction coming up in every presser. Any questions of it now can be ignored completely whereas if they didnt issue something, it would be a constant question in all press briefings.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 05-01-2018 05:57PM

bruschi wrote: »

thats some mighty fine levels of tinfoil hatting there! kudos my good man!

The Patriots do respond to things like this so its nipped early and it deosnt become a distraction coming up in every presser. Any questions of it now can be ignored completely whereas if they didnt issue something, it would be a constant question in all press briefings.

And early playoff exit could be dynamite to this situation.

NufcNavan · 05-01-2018 06:05PM

bruschi wrote: »

thats some mighty fine levels of tinfoil hatting there! kudos my good man!

The Patriots do respond to things like this so its nipped early and it deosnt become a distraction coming up in every presser. Any questions of it now can be ignored completely whereas if they didnt issue something, it would be a constant question in all press briefings.

The press come up with rumours all the time. Teams like the Pats usually have the mindset of ignoring them. This exception is interesting.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 05-01-2018 06:14PM

Its funny that this type of article gets so much press.

Bit of both sides wanting it too much, in terms of Pats fans wanting it to be a complete lie and every other teams' fans wanting it to be true.

.

OldMrBrennan83 · 05-01-2018 06:21PM

This post has been deleted.

99 Bortles of Beer · 05-01-2018 06:34PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

I’m surprised NE was compelled to respond. Not The Patriot Way, and suggests to me that there is something there.

A quick google suggests that they often release statements, whether it be on Deflategate, or the Kneeling During the Anthem debacle, or the Aaron Hernandez case. Kraft has even released statements addressing Donald Trump's idiotic comments recently.

I wouldn't confuse Belichick and his players refuse to answer idiotic pre/post-game questions as some franchise-wide "don't EVER interact with the media" stance. That's never been the case in New England.

PhuckHugh · 05-01-2018 07:13PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

I’m surprised NE was compelled to respond. Not The Patriot Way, and suggests to me that there is something there.

Ah lovely - Speculation about the speculation.

NufcNavan · 05-01-2018 07:39PM

PhuckHugh wrote: »

Ah lovely - Speculation about the speculation.

Welcome to internet discussion.

99 Bortles of Beer wrote: »

A quick google suggests that they often release statements, whether it be on Deflategate, or the Kneeling During the Anthem debacle, or the Aaron Hernandez case. Kraft has even released statements addressing Donald Trump's idiotic comments recently.

I wouldn't confuse Belichick and his players refuse to answer idiotic pre/post-game questions as some franchise-wide "don't EVER interact with the media" stance. That's never been the case in New England.

Those three examples were pretty big deals in fairness.

99 Bortles of Beer · 05-01-2018 08:26PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

Those three examples were pretty big deals in fairness.

They were, but Belichick had discussed articles and rumours publicly before too. As a matter of fact, this isn't the first time Belichick has spoken out about this particular author and his fondness for fabricated stories. The Pats interact with the media as much as anyone.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 05-01-2018 08:32PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

Those three examples were pretty big deals in fairness.

And the almost 2 decade relationship between Bill/Brady/Kraft ending isn’t?
They addressed it, as they have done in the past, and I reckon Bill won’t take a single question on it going forward; it’s over (except for the tin foilers).

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Comments