The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Loafing Oaf · 05-01-2018 01:12AM

grahambo wrote: »

If you have sex, you could get pregnant, there is no Abortion in Ireland because the parish pumps don't want it. Therefore you can either go abroad to have the abortion or have the baby.
This will never change,

It will change if people vote for it to change...

end of the road · 05-01-2018 01:22AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No they are not being fully upheld, and you already admitted as much earlier in the thread when you posted that rights were being upheld for ‘the most part’.
I replied saying that ‘for the most part’ wasn’t good enough and they should be upheld in full, which you never replied to.
If you want to dispute this I have no problem posting a link to the post.

As for the rest of your post, it’s more of you disguising your opinion as fact. This has already been pointed out to you and you don’t care so I’ll just ignore it so as not to derail the thread.

there is no human right to an abortion on demand. i understand that you don't like that and wish it to be otherwise but such a human right doesn't exist. if your life is under threat or the baby can't be caried to term, abortion is availible for you in ireland.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well what is your solution? Seriously? Bar forcing someone who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant, what is the solution?
This would be a different kettle of fish if the fetus could survive without the mothers body as host. But while it cannot, while it depends on her to survive and thrive, it should be ultimately be up to her what happens it.

If I was a victim of abortion I wouldn’t know what I’d feel because I’d never have existed.
However, as a living, breathing woman, I trust my fellow women to make the best decision for themselves, and if they feel abortion is the only option then I support that fully.

I’ll also mention that I would never, ever get an abortion myself. It’s not for me.
But that could change in the future, and it isn’t for me to dictate how someone else lives their life any way. I want other women to have a choice. So I am pro choice.

Also, you’re saying I’m painting you like a gombeen but you and a few others aren’t half painting me as some sort of cold hearted feminazi.
This referendum is very very close to my heart for reasons unsuitable for this thread.
I know you feel like you are doing right by ‘saving the babies’ but I feel I’m doing right by campaigning for women to have a choice.

it should not be up to her what happens it and it can't be, as it's a separate entity which has rights of it's own. the fact it relies on it's mother as a host doesn't justify it's murder.
if someone really wants an abortion, they can avail of it, it isn't needed in ireland bar extreme circumstances, which it currently does exist for in ireland and i believe that is just even if i disagree with the act of abortion.

kylith · 05-01-2018 01:33AM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no human right to an abortion on demand. i understand that you don't like that and wish it to be otherwise but such a human right doesn't exist. if your life is under threat or the baby can't be caried to term, abortion is availible for you in ireland.

There is a right to bodily autonomy; to decide what happens to your own body, and that is being denied.

end of the road wrote: »

it should not be up to her what happens it and it can't be, as it's a separate entity which has rights of it's own. the fact it relies on it's mother as a host doesn't justify it's murder.

It's not a separate entity. If it can't survive independently then it's not separate. If it could survive separately then it could be separated from the woman's body and there would be no issue.

end of the road · 05-01-2018 01:38AM

kylith wrote: »

There is a right to bodily autonomy; to decide what happens to your own body, and that is being denied.

i agree. however being able to access abortion on demand doesn't fit this. if this was about bodily autonomy then repeal would get a landslide vote. however unfortunately the risk of abortion on demand being legislated for is high and that will put a lot of people off voting to repeal.

kylith wrote: »

It's not a separate entity. If it can't survive independently then it's not separate. If it could survive separately then it could be separated from the woman's body and there would be no issue.

it is ultimately a separate entity as in it's a separate life, however it relies on the mother as a host for part of it's growth. but it is separate and has rights and protections of it's own and that needs to continue for the good of society. if we allow abortion on demand then we begin to value life less over all as time goes on and we cannot allow that to happen IMO.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2018 02:33AM

Da Boss wrote: »

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable- Murder!! Yes I accept there is an issue regarding the care of babies however killing the poor indefensible baby’s, or murdering them, is not the solution! Ohh as regards claiming I’m talking through my hole about abortion, I’m not. Ur trying to characterize me as a gombeen however I can inform u I’m a 24 year old college graduate who feels passionate about saving life’s and getting justice for the unborn!! U seem to take ur life for granted, not to be getting personal but imagine u were a victim of abortion, never to life on this earth, denied ur most basic human right

Don't they teach spelling and grammar at third level these days? (Whatever about logic, but one step at a time!)

It's contraception you should be going after really. Back in the 'good old days' of 1950s Ireland they used to call it "the murder of millions" and that's what's hitting the birth rate, not abortion. Soon we could be back to families of 10+ as a common occurrence

Then once that's dealt with you can tackle the evils of masturbation. Every sperm is sacred, and the womenfolk of Ireland need our every drop!

Good luck. You'll certainly need it.

Consonata · 05-01-2018 02:37AM

Da Boss wrote:

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable- Murder!! Yes I accept there is an issue regarding the care of babies however killing the poor indefensible babyâ€™s, or murdering them, is not the solution! Ohh as regards claiming Iâ€™m talking through my hole about abortion, Iâ€™m not. Ur trying to characterize me as a gombeen however I can inform u Iâ€™m a 24 year old college graduate who feels passionate about saving lifeâ€™s and getting justice for the unborn!! U seem to take ur life for granted, not to be getting personal but imagine u were a victim of abortion, never to life on this earth, denied ur most basic human right

So would you want to throw women into jail for 30 years to life for having an abortion abroad?

Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2018 02:40AM

grahambo wrote: »

This will never change, the Church are already gearing up for legal action against the removal of the baptisim barrier in schools.

So what. Anyone can threaten to sue anyone else, it doesn't mean they have a case or will win, and the RCC often makes loud empty threats. (Remember in 2013 when they said they would excommunicate TDs who voted for the X case legislation?)

Of course the 8th will go, it's just a question of time.

If we didn't have it already, do you think it would be voted in today? There's no reason to believe we would. In 1983 - that's THIRTY FIVE years ago in a very different Ireland - it was voted in by 2:1 after a very nasty, brutal and abusive campaign by groups like SPUC and of course the Roman Catholic Church which still had huge influence and could do no wrong in the eyes of many people. I wasn't old enough to vote, but I well remember it.

BUT even 35 years ago and despite the still massive influence of the church and their well-funded campaign allies, it only passed 51:49 in Dublin.

Today things are very different, the repeal movement has been gathering strength for years now and the very idea we would have a citizens' assembly and a Dail committee recommending repeal would have been hard to imagine even five years ago, but here we are.

Women publicly talking about having had abortions also used to be unthinkable. But then it used to be unthinkable for people to talk about homosexuality, once that changed then all the old taboos surrounding it started to fall away, and people became willing to vote for something not for their own benefit, but to right an injustice experienced by others.

The 8th will go. If not this time (but polls suggest it will go) then certainly within the next five years.

How many who voted Yes in 1983 are no longer alive? More than an entire generation have passed on since and those under 53 who never got a vote on this issue are much more pro-choice.

end of the road · 05-01-2018 03:04AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So what. Anyone can threaten to sue anyone else, it doesn't mean they have a case or will win, and the RCC often makes loud empty threats. (Remember in 2013 when they said they would excommunicate TDs who voted for the X case legislation?)

Of course the 8th will go, it's just a question of time.

If we didn't have it already, do you think it would be voted in today? There's no reason to believe we would. In 1983 - that's THIRTY FIVE years ago in a very different Ireland - it was voted in by 2:1 after a very nasty, brutal and abusive campaign by groups like SPUC and of course the Roman Catholic Church which still had huge influence and could do no wrong in the eyes of many people. I wasn't old enough to vote, but I well remember it.

BUT even 35 years ago and despite the still massive influence of the church and their well-funded campaign allies, it only passed 51:49 in Dublin.

Today things are very different, the repeal movement has been gathering strength for years now and the very idea we would have a citizens' assembly and a Dail committee recommending repeal would have been hard to imagine even five years ago, but here we are.

Women publicly talking about having had abortions also used to be unthinkable. But then it used to be unthinkable for people to talk about homosexuality, once that changed then all the old taboos surrounding it started to fall away, and people became willing to vote for something not for their own benefit, but to right an injustice experienced by others.

The 8th will go. If not this time (but polls suggest it will go) then certainly within the next five years.

How many who voted Yes in 1983 are no longer alive? More than an entire generation have passed on since and those under 53 who never got a vote on this issue are much more pro-choice.

the 8th may go, but it will likely be on a small majority. also there will be enough to sustain a campaign to make it very difficult to legislate for abortion on demand i'd reccan, which would be a good thing. as long as there is no abortion on demand then the 8th going would have a lot of support from parts of the pro-life movement.

maccored · 05-01-2018 03:18AM

conorhal wrote: »

Well, yes, if it's inaccurate. Anti choice is not an accurate description of any position, it's an attempt to present a reductive general view of somebody, pro choice is not an accurate description of a position either, it's a euphemistic attempt to present a benign view of a very specific act.

Surely theres a more simpler way of looking at it. The main question being debated is does a woman have the choice or keeping or aborting the child from a pregnancy.

Pro Life means the preference for the child to be born - ie, have the baby, you cant abort it

Pro Choice simply means the woman has the right to make her own choice, whatever it ends up to be. Pro Choice would support the woman's right to have an abortion, but it doesn't necessarily mean a pro choice person would automatically agree with the woman's choice, should she choose abortion.

Its the right to choose that the Pro Choice person believes in - not necessarily the end decision

NuMarvel · 05-01-2018 09:54AM

end of the road wrote: »

i agree. however being able to access abortion on demand doesn't fit this. if this was about bodily autonomy then repeal would get a landslide vote. however unfortunately the risk of abortion on demand being legislated for is high and that will put a lot of people off voting to repeal.

I'm glad to see you agree that a woman's right to bodily autonomy should be paramount. How does a pregnant woman who doesn't want to be pregnant exercise her right to bodily autonomy if not through abortion?

NuMarvel · 05-01-2018 09:59AM

end of the road wrote: »

the 8th may go, but it will likely be on a small majority. also there will be enough to sustain a campaign to make it very difficult to legislate for abortion on demand i'd reccan, which would be a good thing. as long as there is no abortion on demand then the 8th going would have a lot of support from parts of the pro-life movement.

Now I know you're trolling us...

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 10:24AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Don't they teach spelling and grammar at third level these days? (Whatever about logic, but one step at a time!)

It's contraception you should be going after really. Back in the 'good old days' of 1950s Ireland they used to call it "the murder of millions" and that's what's hitting the birth rate, not abortion. Soon we could be back to families of 10+ as a common occurrence

Then once that's dealt with you can tackle the evils of masturbation. Every sperm is sacred, and the womenfolk of Ireland need our every drop!

Good luck. You'll certainly need it.

I don’t know what picture your trying to paint of me, that of something from the 1950s or something. However let me tell you this, there is nothing backwards or old fashioned about standing up against murder! There are countless people across Ireland who would never vote or condone such a thing as this, the indiscriminate murder of the unborn. Yee in the pro choice side are trying ur utmost best to guilt those with a pro life stance, painting those against this murder as “ backwards old fashioned church goers” . Dirty tactics indeed, the pro pro choice movement stinks to the core!

NuMarvel · 05-01-2018 10:31AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I don’t know what picture your trying to paint of me, that of something from the 1950s or something. However let me tell you this, there is nothing backwards or old fashioned about standing up against murder! There are countless people across Ireland who would never vote or condone such a thing as this, the indiscriminate murder of the unborn. Yee in the pro choice side are trying ur utmost best to guilt those with a pro life stance, painting those against this murder as “ backwards old fashioned church goers” . Dirty tactics indeed, the pro pro choice movement stinks to the core!

Wait until you find out that at least 11 of these "murders" happen every day and no one with a pro life stance seems in any way interested in stopping it...

January · 05-01-2018 10:36AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I don’t know what picture your trying to paint of me, that of something from the 1950s or something. However let me tell you this, there is nothing backwards or old fashioned about standing up against murder! There are countless people across Ireland who would never vote or condone such a thing as this, the indiscriminate murder of the unborn. Yee in the pro choice side are trying ur utmost best to guilt those with a pro life stance, painting those against this murder as “ backwards old fashioned church goers” . Dirty tactics indeed, the pro pro choice movement stinks to the core!

I had an abortion. Do you believe I should stand trial for murder?

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 10:47AM

January wrote: »

I had an abortion. Do you believe I should stand trial for murder?

I believe it is wrong and unjust and u should be held accountable for what you done, and yes, be disciplined by the law. You say you had an abortion, without hardly any thought about the fact you ended the life of another! Do you feel no shame, no guilt? Have you and conscience or is it all me me me with no thought whatsoever about the implications on the unborn, denied their right to live due to your self centeredness

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January · 05-01-2018 10:52AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I believe it is wrong and unjust and u should be held accountable for what you done, and yes, be disciplined by the law. You say you had an abortion, without hardly any thought about the fact you ended the life of another! Do you feel no shame, no guilt? Have you and conscience or is it all me me me with no thought whatsoever about the implications on the unborn, denied their right to live due to your self centeredness

I have no shame or guilt. I thought hard about my decision and I couldn't afford to bring another life into this world and look after it. So you believe I should have brought a child into a life of poverty and put my other, already born, children into a life of poverty too. Where's the compassion there?

Loafing Oaf · 05-01-2018 10:54AM

end of the road wrote: »

the 8th may go, but it will likely be on a small majority. also there will be enough to sustain a campaign to make it very difficult to legislate for abortion on demand i'd reccan.

You understand that the committee's proposal is for a referendum on replealing the 8th amendment to be held, followed immediately by the passage of legislation for 'abortion on demand' (within term limits)? Are you suggesting that this campaign (of lobbying, presumably) would cause the defeat of this legislation in the Dail? I would point you to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013. Remember all the talk of a massive rebellion in Fine Gael that would bring that down? How did that work out at the end of the day?

Hector Savage · 05-01-2018 10:54AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I believe it is wrong and unjust and u should be held accountable for what you done, and yes, be disciplined by the law. You say you had an abortion, without hardly any thought about the fact you ended the life of another! Do you feel no shame, no guilt? Have you and conscience or is it all me me me with no thought whatsoever about the implications on the unborn, denied their right to live due to your self centeredness

What about having a w*nk though ? ... I had one this morning and must have committed genocide with the amount of wasted semen..

Am I as bad as Hitler or one of those mad fellas ... Stalin maybe ?

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Edward M · 05-01-2018 11:00AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

What about having a w*nk though ? ... I had one this morning and must have committed genocide with the amount of wasted semen..

Am I as bad as Hitler or one of those mad fellas ... Stalin maybe ?

Only one? Ah well the day is only starting!

baylah17 · 05-01-2018 11:01AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I believe it is wrong and unjust and u should be held accountable for what you done, and yes, be disciplined by the law. You say you had an abortion, without hardly any thought about the fact you ended the life of another! Do you feel no shame, no guilt? Have you and conscience or is it all me me me with no thought whatsoever about the implications on the unborn, denied their right to live due to your self centeredness

So you believe that a woman should be coerced against her will to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term against her will and under pain of punishment?
You seem to have little regard or respect for the rights of women.

seamus · 05-01-2018 11:01AM

January wrote: »

I have no shame or guilt. I thought hard about my decision and I couldn't afford to bring another life into this world and look after it. So you believe I should have brought a child into a life of poverty and put my other, already born, children into a life of poverty too. Where's the compassion there?

Compassion is for unborn babies and priests being bullied by the media.

You had sex, you harlot, you jezebel. You only deserve scorn.

ohnonotgmail · 05-01-2018 11:04AM

seamus wrote: »

Compassion is for unborn babies and priests being bullied by the media.

You had sex, you harlot, you jezebel. You only deserve scorn.

things must be bad when it is impossible to distinguish parody from the real thing.

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ohnonotgmail · 05-01-2018 11:07AM

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actually the big clue was that it was too mild.

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 12:06PM

I really wish people would stop calling it murder. It isn't murder. In any shape or form. Calling it so is hyperbole and inaccurate and just takes away from the discussion. It just comes across like trying to point score and is highly insensitive to women who are on this thread who have shared their stories about having abortions themselves.

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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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