The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

mrkiscool2 · 04-01-2018 09:40PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's a fair request, but first of all it's worth noting this -

The adoption vs. abortion myth

Basically any correlation between a reduction or increase in either abortion or children in care is misleading in the first place. Worth noting too -

Cory L. Richards is senior vice president and vice president for public policy at the Guttmacher Institute, an independent think tank in the field of sexual and reproductive health.

That's the Institute that published the report that mrkiscool2 produced earlier that was about 10 years out of date. It's not that I am biased against any use of statistics from the Guttermacher Institute itself (they really are the go-to peeps for this kind of stuff), it's that the report was simply 10 years out of date.

Ok so with that out of the way, if we look at the trends for both abortion and children in care in both the US and the UK, we see that they both increase and decrease in tandem! That is to say that, historically at least, when the rate of abortion rises, so does the number of children in care! When the rate of abortion decreases, so too does the number of children in care!

So, when I said this -

It's entirely true to say that there's simply no way of knowing whether it would or wouldn't make a difference in Ireland to the numbers of children in care, but if we look at the evidence from other countries, the evidence suggests that it doesn't. I would suggest that the figures for the number of children in care would be the same as they would be now whether or not we had abortion in Ireland.

Sources:
Children looked after in England (including adoption and care leavers) year ending 31 March 2015, Department for Education, England
Abortion Statistics, England and Wales: 2015, Summary information from the abortion notification forms returned to the Chief Medical Officers of England and Wales.
Child Welfare Information Gateway. (2017). Foster care statistics 2015. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Children’s Bureau.
Here’s Why the Number of Abortions in the US Has Hit a Record Low, Vice News, 2015

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....wait, wait, I got this....hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Did you even read the article? It says the rate of children in care is significantly down since 1970. Hmmmm, I wonder when abortion became legal in New York? Oh, that's right, 1970. Seriously mate, get your head sorted. 10 years is still evidence that what you said was wrong and you still can't let it fcuking go. Sad.

EDIT: By the way, to back up your claim that abortion would not affect the number of children in care in Ireland, you have to provide figures for the amount of children in care for periods before and after abortion was legalised in countries to see if what you claim is true. Not only did I provide you research that proved what I said was correct (as much as you tried to claim "I didn't say that hurr durr", and then claim I didn't refute your claim because "durr hurr, it was a 10 year old paper"), your article also proved me correct. Quite funny that.

Billy86 · 04-01-2018 09:42PM

grahambo wrote: »

You're probably right.

Been working an admin job with Tusla and we share the floor/building with a HSE primary care center... he's more than right!

frag420 · 04-01-2018 09:53PM

EOTR, have you ever wondered why nobody from the pro-birth side are thanking your posts or agreeing with you?

Ever stop to think that even they, despite being on the same side as you with respect to the debate think that what you write here is complete nonsense and factless babble!!

Just to note that at this stage nobody has thanked EOTR’s posts just in case someone decides to start thanking them!!

In fact I enjoy reading your replies because if this is the level of debate from that side the result is a forgone conclusion!

And before you start typing a reply, allow me to help you, just copy and paste any of the below into your reply!!

***It doesn’t matter if people don’t agree with me, I know I am right and that’s a fact***

***It’s not a forgone conclusion, that’s a fact***

***That’s your opinion and it’s wrong, that’s a fact***

end of the road · 04-01-2018 09:55PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It isn’t a fact. It simply isn’t. It isn’t definitely true.
It is your OPINION which is NOT a fact.

i disagree as it really is a fact. and all the evidence i have read suggests enough to me that it is fact. i haven't saw anything credible to change my viewpoint. the rest of your post is inaccurate and i will say that your opinions on me aren't relevant, only our opinions on the topic are relevant.

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....wait, wait, I got this....hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Did you even read the article? It says the rate of children in care is significantly down since 1970. Hmmmm, I wonder when abortion became legal in New York? Oh, that's right, 1970. Seriously mate, get your head sorted. 10 years is still evidence that what you said was wrong and you still can't let it fcuking go. Sad.

EDIT: By the way, to back up your claim that abortion would not affect the number of children in care in Ireland, you have to provide figures for the amount of children in care for periods before and after abortion was legalised in countries to see if what you claim is true. Not only did I provide you research that proved what I said was correct (as much as you tried to claim "I didn't say that hurr durr", and then claim I didn't refute your claim because "durr hurr, it was a 10 year old paper"), your article also proved me correct. Quite funny that.

there is no evidence however that the reduction is down to abortion availability alone at least. it may be a part of it but there could be a lot of other factors at play.

SusieBlue · 04-01-2018 10:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree as it really is a fact. and all the evidence i have read suggests enough to me that it is fact. i haven't saw anything credible to change my viewpoint. the rest of your post is inaccurate and i will say that your opinions on me aren't relevant, only our opinions on the topic are .

No, you are confused again. That’s your opinion. Your opinion is your own thoughts and beliefs on a topic, but it isn’t factual. Opinion does not equal fact.

Also you saying ‘I disagree as it really is a fact’ is not evidence that what you are saying is true. You’ll need better sources to back up your points other than ‘because I said so’ type ones if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Consonata · 04-01-2018 10:02PM

end of the road wrote:

i disagree as it really is a fact. and all the evidence i have read suggests enough to me that it is fact. i haven't saw anything credible to change my viewpoint. the rest of your post is inaccurate and i will say that your opinions on me aren't relevant, only our opinions on the topic are relevant.

Any chance you would share that evidence with us?

Since we are having a discussion, backing up your claims and all that.

end of the road · 04-01-2018 10:35PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No, you are confused again. That’s your opinion. Your opinion is your own thoughts and beliefs on a topic, but it isn’t factual. Opinion does not equal fact.

Also you saying ‘I disagree as it really is a fact’ is not evidence that what you are saying is true. You’ll need better sources to back up your points other than ‘because I said so’ type ones if you want anyone to take you seriously.

i'm definitely not confused on anything. what i stated is certainly accurate and as i have said i have read nothing that has stated that it isn't. i get you don't like that and i understand but i can only give the information.

frag420 · 04-01-2018 10:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

i'm definitely not confused on anything. what i stated is certainly accurate and as i have said i have read nothing that has stated that it isn't. i get you don't like that and i understand but i can only give the information.

I’m calling you out, you’re Ronan Mullins!!

Nobody else is this incoherent, rambling and full of their own self belief!

No wait, you could be Mattie McGrath!?

Which is it?

ohnonotgmail · 04-01-2018 10:49PM

frag420 wrote: »

I’m calling you out, you’re Ronan Mullins!!

Nobody else is this incoherent, rambling and full of their own self belief!

No wait, you could be Mattie McGrath!?

Which is it?

always convinced he was brendan ogle

SusieBlue · 04-01-2018 11:08PM

Can any other posters please try to enlighten EOTR on the difference between an opinion and a fact because he just doesn’t seem to be getting it?

Because the way he is talking, he has the facts while all the rest of us merely have opinions. Meaning he is right and we are all wrong. Which obviously isn’t the case or there would be no need for this debate.

Da Boss · 04-01-2018 11:27PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Can any other posters please try to enlighten EOTR on the difference between an opinion and a fact because he just doesn’t seem to be getting it?

Because the way he is talking, he has the facts while all the rest of us merely have opinions. Meaning he is right and we are all wrong. Which obviously isn’t the case or there would be no need for this debate.

White roses I’ve a question of me own!!! Are you Employed by the “pro choice” group or is it just u devote ur whole day to spreading their propaganda

January · 04-01-2018 11:29PM

Da Boss wrote: »

White roses I’ve a question of me own!!! Are you Employed by the “pro choice” group or is it just u devote ur whole day to spreading their propaganda

Lol

Consonata · 04-01-2018 11:33PM

Da Boss wrote:

White roses Iâ€™ve a question of me own!!! Are you Employed by the â€œpro choiceâ€ group or is it just u devote ur whole day to spreading their propaganda

For posts like this, I really wish Boards had a thinking emoji.

SusieBlue · 04-01-2018 11:41PM

Da Boss wrote: »

White roses I’ve a question of me own!!! Are you Employed by the “pro choice” group or is it just u devote ur whole day to spreading their propaganda

Nope, I’m just very passionate about my bodily autonomy and human rights, as hard as it is to believe! If it were your human rights up for discussion I’m sure you’d feel strongly about it too.

Birdie Num Num · 04-01-2018 11:52PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Nope, I’m just very passionate about my bodily autonomy and human rights, as hard as it is to believe! If it were your human rights up for discussion I’m sure you’d feel strongly about it too.

My Human rights, your Human rights?

SusieBlue · 04-01-2018 11:55PM

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

My Human rights, your Human rights?

Fine. Women’s rights. I am a woman.

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 12:02AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Nope, I’m just very passionate about my bodily autonomy and human rights, as hard as it is to believe! If it were your human rights up for discussion I’m sure you’d feel strongly about it too.

Well since when have you the “right” to end the life of another. You propose abortion, but what is abortion?! I’ll tell you! Abortion is the pre planned murdering of the most vulnerable in society, the unborn! Abortion is killing and that’s no right! Nobody have the right to kill.

Consonata · 05-01-2018 12:15AM

Da Boss wrote:

Well since when have you the â€œrightâ€ to end the life of another. You propose abortion, but what is abortion?! Iâ€™ll tell you! Abortion is the pre planned murdering of the most vulnerable in society, the unborn! Abortion is killing and thatâ€™s no right! Nobody have the right to kill.

Bold move poster, stating the absurd. Lets see how it plays out.

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 12:19AM

Da Boss wrote: »

Well since when have you the “right” to end the life of another. You propose abortion, but what is abortion?! I’ll tell you! Abortion is the pre planned murdering of the most vulnerable in society, the unborn! Abortion is killing and that’s no right! Nobody have the right to kill.

I can only assume you are queuing up to adopt all the unwanted babies from the many unwilling/unfit mothers in this country? Seeing as you are so passionate about stopping the ‘murder’ of all these fetuses??

Also strange that abortion is legal in so many western, progressive, civilized countries. Someone should have told them they’re all calculating murdering killers!

Oh wait. Except they aren’t.
You clearly have no idea what the 8th is really about. It’s more than abortion, it’s about maternity care and consent. You don’t have a notion about what your talking about.

ohnonotgmail · 05-01-2018 12:21AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can only assume you are queuing up to adopt all the unwanted babies from the many unwilling/unfit mothers in this country? Seeing as you are so passionate about stopping the ‘murder’ of all these fetuses??

Also strange that abortion is legal in so many western, progressive, civilized countries. Someone should have told them they’re all calculating murdering killers!

Oh wait. Except they aren’t.
You clearly have no idea what the 8th is really about. It’s more than abortion, it’s about maternity care and consent. You don’t have a notion about what your talking about.

going by the threads they post on they are a bachelor farmer from the west of ireland who attends mass every sunday so that fits.

frag420 · 05-01-2018 12:21AM

Da Boss wrote: »

Well since when have you the “right” to end the life of another. You propose abortion, but what is abortion?! I’ll tell you! Abortion is the pre planned murdering of the most vulnerable in society, the unborn! Abortion is killing and that’s no right! Nobody have the right to kill.

So if you were aware of someone who was intending to have an abortion in the UK this weekend would you have the balls to call them out in public to stop them travelling to murder the unborn as you put it? Would you call the police and have them arrested for attempted murder?

Again I am going to call another of the pro birth side out and say you would not have the balls to do it! You will happily sit behind a keyboard calling it murder but when it comes down to it you would not have the balls to stop it!!

Tell me I am wrong and if I am then prove it!

And EOTR if you are reading this, please don't bother trying to reply to this with your nonsense, its not required, lets the adults talk for a while, I am sure you have some trains to play with over in the transport thread!!

end of the road · 05-01-2018 12:27AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Nope, I’m just very passionate about my bodily autonomy and human rights, as hard as it is to believe! If it were your human rights up for discussion I’m sure you’d feel strongly about it too.

your human rights and bodily autonomy are being upheld. there is no human right to kill the unborn unless it's in extreme circumstances. so your human rights aren't been effected as abortion in extreme circumstances is availible.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can only assume you are queuing up to adopt all the unwanted babies from the many unwilling/unfit mothers in this country? Seeing as you are so passionate about stopping the ‘murder’ of all these fetuses??

this isn't a valid question as there is a system in place to help children in need. it's effectively whataboutery.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Also strange that abortion is legal in so many western, progressive, civilized countries. Someone should have told them they’re all calculating murdering killers!

Oh wait. Except they aren’t.

they are wrong, and they are allowing killing.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

You clearly have no idea what the 8th is really about. It’s more than abortion, it’s about maternity care and consent. You don’t have a notion about what your talking about.

he actually does, however the reality is abortion on demand will be the main issue that will decide whether the referendum gets passed or not.

end of the road · 05-01-2018 12:30AM

frag420 wrote: »

So if you were aware of someone who was intending to have an abortion in the UK this weekend would you have the balls to call them out in public to stop them travelling to murder the unborn as you put it? Would you call the police and have them arrested for attempted murder?

Again I am going to call another of the pro birth side out and say you would not have the balls to do it! You will happily sit behind a keyboard calling it murder but when it comes down to it you would not have the balls to stop it!!

Tell me I am wrong and if I am then prove it!

again this isn't a valid question, as it's designed to twist his answer toards the pro-abortion narrative.

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 12:35AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can only assume you are queuing up to adopt all the unwanted babies from the many unwilling/unfit mothers in this country? Seeing as you are so passionate about stopping the ‘murder’ of all these fetuses??

Also strange that abortion is legal in so many western, progressive, civilized countries. Someone should have told them they’re all calculating murdering killers!

Oh wait. Except they aren’t.
You clearly have no idea what the 8th is really about. It’s more than abortion, it’s about maternity care and consent. You don’t have a notion about what your talking about.

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable- Murder!! Yes I accept there is an issue regarding the care of babies however killing the poor indefensible baby’s, or murdering them, is not the solution! Ohh as regards claiming I’m talking through my hole about abortion, I’m not. Ur trying to characterize me as a gombeen however I can inform u I’m a 24 year old college graduate who feels passionate about saving life’s and getting justice for the unborn!! U seem to take ur life for granted, not to be getting personal but imagine u were a victim of abortion, never to life on this earth, denied ur most basic human right

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 12:36AM

end of the road wrote: »

your human rights and bodily autonomy are being upheld. there is no human right to kill the unborn unless it's in extreme circumstances. so your human rights aren't been effected as abortion in extreme circumstances is availible.

No they are not being fully upheld, and you already admitted as much earlier in the thread when you posted that rights were being upheld for ‘the most part’.
I replied saying that ‘for the most part’ wasn’t good enough and they should be upheld in full, which you never replied to.
If you want to dispute this I have no problem posting a link to the post.

As for the rest of your post, it’s more of you disguising your opinion as fact. This has already been pointed out to you and you don’t care so I’ll just ignore it so as not to derail the thread.

frag420 · 05-01-2018 12:43AM

end of the road wrote: »

again this isn't a valid question, as it's designed to twist his answer toards the pro-abortion narrative.

How is it twisting twisting the answer towards the pro choice side, you either believe abortion is the murder of the unborn and should be stopped or you don't?

So to be clear, you and your ilk would not report someone who was intending to murder the unborn? Glad we cleared that up, we now know that yourself and Da Boss are happy to see the unborn murdered!

By the way if you are pro life and you don't report it then you are a sad pathetic excuse for a human and that EOTR is a FACT!!!

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 12:43AM

Da Boss wrote: »

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable- Murder!! Yes I accept there is an issue regarding the care of babies however killing the poor indefensible baby’s, or murdering them, is not the solution! Ohh as regards claiming I’m talking through my hole about abortion, I’m not. Ur trying to characterize me as a gombeen however I can inform u I’m a 24 year old college graduate who feels passionate about saving life’s and getting justice for the unborn!! U seem to take ur life for granted, not to be getting personal but imagine u were a victim of abortion, never to life on this earth, denied ur most basic human right

Well what is your solution? Seriously? Bar forcing someone who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant, what is the solution?
This would be a different kettle of fish if the fetus could survive without the mothers body as host. But while it cannot, while it depends on her to survive and thrive, it should be ultimately be up to her what happens it.

If I was a victim of abortion I wouldn’t know what I’d feel because I’d never have existed.
However, as a living, breathing woman, I trust my fellow women to make the best decision for themselves, and if they feel abortion is the only option then I support that fully.

I’ll also mention that I would never, ever get an abortion myself. It’s not for me.
But that could change in the future, and it isn’t for me to dictate how someone else lives their life any way. I want other women to have a choice. So I am pro choice.

Also, you’re saying I’m painting you like a gombeen but you and a few others aren’t half painting me as some sort of cold hearted feminazi.
This referendum is very very close to my heart for reasons unsuitable for this thread.
I know you feel like you are doing right by ‘saving the babies’ but I feel I’m doing right by campaigning for women to have a choice.

frag420 · 05-01-2018 12:44AM

Da Boss wrote: »

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable- Murder!! Yes I accept there is an issue regarding the care of babies however killing the poor indefensible baby’s, or murdering them, is not the solution! Ohh as regards claiming I’m talking through my hole about abortion, I’m not. Ur trying to characterize me as a gombeen however I can inform u I’m a 24 year old college graduate who feels passionate about saving life’s and getting justice for the unborn!! U seem to take ur life for granted, not to be getting personal but imagine u were a victim of abortion, never to life on this earth, denied ur most basic human right

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 12:53AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well what is your solution? Seriously? Bar forcing someone who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant, what is the solution?
This would be a different kettle of fish if the fetus could survive without the mothers body as host. But while it cannot, while it depends on her to survive and thrive, it should be ultimately be up to her what happens it.

If I was a victim of abortion I wouldn’t know what I’d feel because I’d never have existed.
However, as a living, breathing woman, I trust my fellow women to make the best decision for themselves, and if they feel abortion is the only option then I support that fully.

I’ll also mention that I would never, ever get an abortion myself. It’s not for me.
But that could change in the future, and it isn’t for me to dictate how someone else lives their life any way. I want other women to have a choice. So I am pro choice.

Also, you’re saying I’m painting you like a gombeen but you and a few others aren’t half painting me as some sort of cold hearted feminazi.
This referendum is very very close to my heart for reasons unsuitable for this thread.
I know you feel like you are doing right by ‘saving the babies’ but I feel I’m doing right by campaigning for women to have a choice.

I respect ur opinions- but I cannot find them acceptable in any make shapes or fashion. As regards carrying an unwanted child, in cases of rape, unfortunately the woman has falling victim to the most horrible of crimes, and should be compensated generously in court. How it’s not the doing of the unborn child in question so an abortion would be unjust and WRONG! Regards unplanned pregnancy’s, wear a condom, it’s that simple!!. Abortion would be acceptable if it just affected the woman however that’s not the case as it involves killing another so therefore cannot be tolerated in any make shape or form!

January · 05-01-2018 12:56AM

Da Boss wrote: »

I respect ur opinions- but I cannot find them acceptable in any make shapes or fashion. As regards carrying an unwanted child, in cases of rape, unfortunately the woman has falling victim to the most horrible of crimes, and should be compensated generously in court. How it’s not the doing of the unborn child in question so an abortion would be unjust and WRONG! Regards unplanned pregnancy’s, wear a condom, it’s that simple!!. Abortion would be acceptable if it just affected the woman however that’s not the case as it involves killing another so therefore cannot be tolerated in any make shape or form!

Let's go through this one more time. Say it with me now.

Contraception is not 100% effective.

Just another militant anti choicer spouting the same thing over and over. College graduate my ass.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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