Home Security Systems and Statistics

bk · 21-12-2017 9:17pm #1

So this thread is probably more suited to the Home Security forum then here, but I feel I might get my head bitten off me over their!

So I've been thinking a lot about this home security stuff and it got me thinking, how likely are you to be burgled and thus how much to spend on a security system?

So I went digging for some stats on burglaries in Ireland.

In 2016 there were 21,000 burglaries. Sounds like a lot, but there are more then 2 millions homes in Ireland! So the likeliness of getting burgled in 2016 was 0.01% !!

So in reality their is little chance of being a victim.

And even more interesting the average taken in a burglary is just €600, most of which would be covered by house insurance anyway.

And yet, their is a very well known alarm company who charges at least €500 for their alarm system and more then €400 per year for monitoring!!!!

It really makes you wonder who the real thieves are!

Now I'm not saying that you don't need some sort of alarm system. But I do feel it makes an argument for cheap connected self monitored Smart DIY alarm systems being enough for most people.

Funnily what stoked my interest in this area, is wanting the ability of being remotely informed of an alarm activation and being able to remotely deactivate it. Because I felt (without checking the states) that the chances of being burgled were low and that the real issue was the alarm going off accidentally and annoying neighbours when I was away for an extended period (which has happened before)

Now I don't think the perfect self monitored DIY alarm system is here yet, but I do fell it will come in the next year or two and that combining one with a IP camera will give you a decent level of security for an affordable price.

Plus if those same sensors can be used for other HA activities, such as turning on lights, then it helps slightly justify the cost.

bk · 21-12-2017 9:33pm

Or I should mention though, when getting House Insurance, you should specifically select "No Alarm".

If you are taking the alarm discount, they require an alarm system that meets certain requirements and is frequently maintained, which a DIY system likely isn;t covered by and if you were burgled, might risk getting a pay out.

To be honest, it seems like a load of rubbish, the standards are old and mean modern, more advanced system aren't covered by it. Also if you forget to arm the system, then you might not be covered.

Even if you have a certified and maintained traditional system, still probably better not to risk it and just say "No Alarm".

Funny thing is, when I realised this and asked my insurance company to drop the alarm cover, they first said they would have to charge 10% more, but then when I replied, fine, I'll shop around for other insurance companies so, then came straight back and said they could not only drop the extra 10%, but give me another 5% off since I was such a good customer! So don't let them over-charge you on this.

dam099 · 21-12-2017 9:34pm

bk wrote: »

So this thread is probably more suited to the Home Security forum then here, but I feel I might get my head bitten off me over their!

So I've been thinking a lot about this home security stuff and it got me thinking, how likely are you to be burgled and thus how much to spend on a security system?

So I went digging for some stats on burglaries in Ireland.

In 2016 there were 21,000 burglaries. Sounds like a lot, but there are more then 2 millions homes in Ireland! So the likeliness of getting burgled in 2016 was 0.01% !!

So in reality their is little chance of being a victim.

And even more interesting the average taken in a burglary is just €600, most of which would be covered by house insurance anyway.

And yet, their is a very well known alarm company who charges at least €500 for their alarm system and more then €400 per year for monitoring!!!!

It really makes you wonder who the real thieves are!

Now I'm not saying that you don't need some sort of alarm system. But I do feel it makes an argument for cheap connected self monitored Smart DIY alarm systems being enough for most people.

Funnily what stoked my interest in this area, is wanting the ability of being remotely informed of an alarm activation and being able to remotely deactivate it. Because I felt (without checking the states) that the chances of being burgled were low and that the real issue was the alarm going off accidentally and annoying neighbours when I was away for an extended period (which has happened before)

Now I don't think the perfect self monitored DIY alarm system is here yet, but I do fell it will come in the next year or two and that combining one with a IP camera will give you a decent level of security for an affordable price.

Plus if those same sensors can be used for other HA activities, such as turning on lights, then it helps slightly justify the cost.

Shouldn't that be 1%? Also that is your annual risk, if life expectancy is 80yrs then your lifetime risk might be approaching 100%?

Interesting point on the average loss though, it certainly would indicate the annual cost of monitoring is probably not worth it. Some up front cost with self monitoring might indeed make more sense.

There are also other intangibles like a sense of security in your own home. Sometimes the damage done can run to more that what was stolen as well, new locks/windows, internal damage etc.

bk · 21-12-2017 11:58pm

dam099 wrote: »

Shouldn't that be 1%? Also that is your annual risk, if life expectancy is 80yrs then your lifetime risk might be approaching 100%?

Sorry yes, probability of 0.01, which as you is 1%

Though that doesn't mean you would approach 100% over a lifetime, probability doesn't really work that way. Unfortunately for some people they get burgled multiple times! Also you probably don't own a home for the first 25 years or so of you life.

dam099 wrote: »

Interesting point on the average loss though, it certainly would indicate the annual cost of monitoring is probably not worth it. Some up front cost with self monitoring might indeed make more sense.

There are also other intangibles like a sense of security in your own home. Sometimes the damage done can run to more that what was stolen as well, new locks/windows, internal damage etc.

Damage costs (to locks, windows, etc.) would also be covered by insurance (after the deductible) and I believe it is actually included in that €600 figure.

Here is one way to think of it. Monitoring cost of €400 a year over a more realistic 50 years will cost you €20,000! Doesn't seem worth it at all. Even cheaper monitoring of €200 per year would still be €10,000

Against your €250 deductible it just doesn't seem worth it.

You are right about the simple feeling of sense of security and yes I think the security industry plays on that fear.

The one thing I would worry about is someone breaking in while we slept and possible assault. Which is why I'm happy to have some sort of alarm system to alert us of an attempted entry, but I'm not sure if monitoring is really worth it.

No scrap that, I'm now certain it is a waste of money.

An alarm system with good coverage of doors and windows, noisy bell and some notifications and remote control along with an IP camera to keep an eye on the place seems like more then enough.

wexfordman2 · 23-12-2017 6:21am

What are the stats of beeakins of houses with alarms versus those without alarms ?

Would be interested to see that, might be am eye opener one way or another

Cabaal · 23-12-2017 8:52am

bk wrote: »

Or I should mention though, when getting House Insurance, you should specifically select "No Alarm".

If you are taking the alarm discount, they require an alarm system that meets certain requirements and is frequently maintained, which a DIY system likely isn;t covered by and if you were burgled, might risk getting a pay out.

I know last time I renewed the insurer had a drop down list of installers which I had to select from, so if that becomes more common you won't be able to do that if its a DIY job.

I select that I have an alarm, but then it was properly installed by a certed installer

FrankGrimes · 24-12-2017 8:08pm

bk wrote: »

Plus if those same sensors can be used for other HA activities, such as turning on lights, then it helps slightly justify the cost.

Keep saying it, but still taken aback at the lack of quality systems that do this in 2017. There is no particularly challenging technical limitation that could explain it.

I basically want to be able to add my alarm system to SmartThings (or any other hub) and control it in the same way as one can add their lighting, heating, power systems to it, but still not clear to me what, if any, systems make that possible. And I’m in a situation where I can install both wired and wireless so no restrictions on that front, but still not aware of compelling options that do the above, seems like a real gap in the market unless there’s offerings I’m overlooking.

Peace of mind is difficult to quantify and is valued differently by different people so there is still justification to have an alarm system for most people but agree the smart features would make them more useful. Actually would be in favour of a new rule requiring every new alarm to be smart app enabled so owner gets notification when it goes off and can shut it off remotely which would significantly reduce one of the main noise pests in urban environments.

Definitely agree with ticking No Alarm on the house insurance, reduction was negligible when I checked it and also not worth the hassle of fearing you might forget to turn it on and be left without cover (which I doubt would actually happen but would be a worry).

wexfordman2 · 24-12-2017 9:02pm

Comfort from cytech talks to smart things

25-12-2017 10:17am

bk wrote: »

In 2016 there were 21,000 burglaries. Sounds like a lot, but there are more then 2 millions homes in Ireland! So the likeliness of getting burgled in 2016 was 0.01% !!

I was going to ask you for a link to this, but I found CSO data here.
This states:

"The CSO's recorded crime index released in March 2017 shows almost 18,438 burglaries and related offences occurred nationwide in 2016."

And even more interesting the average taken in a burglary is just €600, most of which would be covered by house insurance anyway.

Its not just about the monetary value of what is taken / destroyed. It is the feeling that an intruder has been in your home and invading your privacy and the impact that this can have on the entire family (children in particular). There is also the possibility (albeit remote) that you will be attacked in your home. This is a particular concern for the elderly that reside in isolated rural parts of the country.

As a licensed firearms owner the Gardansist that I have an intruder alarm as well as a number of additional security features. This applies to a lot more people than you would think.

Remember if you claim from your home insurance it may have an impact on subsequent premium(s). Also insurance companies seem to be far better at taking your hard earned cash than paying out!

And yet, their is a very well known alarm company who charges at least €500 for their alarm system and more then €400 per year for monitoring!!!!

I am guessing that you are taking about the PhoneWatch system @ €499. My understanding is that this price covers the cost of the install and all of the alarm components remain the property of PhoneWatch. The majority of the intruder alarm systems that they install depend almost entirely on motion detectors meaning that they have to be switched off when the occupants are home which is disappointing as this is exactly when many burgleries occur!

It really makes you wonder who the real thieves are!

:rolleyes:

Now I'm not saying that you don't need some sort of alarm system. But I do feel it makes an argument for cheap connected self monitored Smart DIY alarm systems being enough for most people.

Agreed.

Now I don't think the perfect self monitored DIY alarm system is here yet

Perhaps not "perfect", but pretty good.
It just depends on how good a DIYer you are.

Cabaal wrote: »

I select that I have an alarm, but then it was properly installed by a certed installer

Remember that certification only lasts one year!
There is a lot of small print in insurance policies that applies to those that avail of the insurance "discount" for having an alarm.

Roen · 25-12-2017 10:24am

Check out the Konnected alarm panel. Hooks into smartthings or home assistant.
Lot of draw backs as it requires internet access but it's relatively cheap and allows your PIR and contact sensors to be used for automations.

stuartkee · 25-12-2017 11:01am

Just a note on the above thread. You really need to keep these guys out so filling your house with motion detectors is not the answer so shock/contacts on all ground floor doors and windows with with a back up of a motion detector in the hall and the best thing to upset a burger is a ringing bellbox not like phonewatches FAKE bellbox to attract attention .
Everything helps a barking dog security lights and also CCTV.

Roen wrote: »

Check out the Konnected alarm panel. Hooks into smartthings or home assistant.
Lot of draw backs as it requires internet access but it's relatively cheap and allows your PIR and contact sensors to be used for automations.

bk · 27-12-2017 12:19pm

2011 wrote: »

Its not just about the monetary value of what is taken / destroyed. It is the feeling that an intruder has been in your home and invading your privacy and the impact that this can have on the entire family (children in particular). There is also the possibility (albeit remote) that you will be attacked in your home. This is a particular concern for the elderly that reside in isolated rural parts of the country.

Sure and I'm not saying people should have no alarm system. Hell after all I've got three systems now and IP cameras! But I am wondering if there is any real value in monitored system. A basic noisy alarm system will let you know if someone has tried to break in while you sleep and gives you time to call the Gardai and take whatever steps you need to protect your family.

Monitoring won't add anything to that.

I feel self monitoring is a useful addition, as it allows you to deactivate a false alarm so you don't piss off your neighbours. Which in my neighbourhood seems to happen far more often then actually break ins.

Also it is worth remembering that just because you have an alarm system, doesn't mean you wouldn't be broken into. Homes with even very expensive, monitored alarms are broken into.

(Mod edit/snip:
All please note and be mindful about providing ways to disable security systems, the wrong element can read too::)

So no guarantees even with a fancy alarm system.

Interestingly I've spent a lot of time in South America. I didn't think I saw a single alarm system there. And I'm talking very expensive neighbourhoods with swimming pools and jet skis, etc.

I asked people there about it and they laughed and said security systems would be useless there. They wouldn't stop some one simply smashing in your door, shooting you and stealing your stuff as you lie on the floor bleeding and gone in 60 seconds!

Instead every door and window has iron bars on them (even very nice neighbourhoods), with big walls all around the house topped with electric wire and often big angry dogs patrolling the grounds. Real physical security to keep people out.

Now I'm of course not suggesting anyone do the above. Fortunately break ins aren't that common here and involve violence even less so. If you did the above you would most likely in danger yourself in a fire. But it does show that the whole alarm system thing is a bit blah. It is useful tool, but I'm not sure it is worth spending a fortune on and it certainly isn't a silver bullet.

2011 wrote: »

As a licensed firearms owner the Gardansist that I have an intruder alarm as well as a number of additional security features. This applies to a lot more people than you would think.

Of course and that is a whole different story and you should of course do whatever the Gardai require in those circumstances. Though again I'm not saying don't have any security system, I'm just mulling over what level of system is actually useful and how much to spend on it.

2011 wrote: »

Remember if you claim from your home insurance it may have an impact on subsequent premium(s). Also insurance companies seem to be far better at taking your hard earned cash than paying out!

Sure, but again having an alarm system doesn't guarantee you won't be broken into either.

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps not "perfect", but pretty good.
It just depends on how good a DIYer you are.

Of course, though I think Smart security alarm systems are getting good enough where almost anyone could install them, even without having any electrical experience (which you generally need for normal alarm systems).

I took me less then 30 minutes to set up my SmartThings alarm system. Just place a few wireless PIR's and door/window sensors around the house and click a few buttons in the app and done, easy pessy.

You really should need lots of messing to get this working.

Now I readily admit SmartThings doesn't have everything I'd like to see in a DIY Smart Alarm system, but it is almost there. This isn't rocket science.

2011 wrote: »

Remember that certification only lasts one year!
There is a lot of small print in insurance policies that applies to those that avail of the insurance "discount" for having an alarm.

This, big time. It is why I dropped the "alarm system discount" from my cover and why I recommend the same to everyone.

To be honest, needing your alarm system maintained yearly just seems like a scam. Their should be no need to maintain an alarm system for years. Batteries should be user changeable and the system should be able to easily notify you of any issues.

The fact that I've three alarm systems and IP cameras, yet that might not be good enough for insurance companies is just ridiculous.

I think the insurance companies will come under pressure to change with the rise of these smart DIY security systems and IP camera systems.

For now just better to drop to discount and shop around for insurance, it most likely won't cost you more.

bk · 27-12-2017 12:23pm

stuartkee wrote: »

Just a note on the above thread. You really need to keep these guys out so filling your house with motion detectors is not the answer so shock/contacts on all ground floor doors and windows with with a back up of a motion detector in the hall and the best thing to upset a burger is a ringing bellbox not like phonewatches FAKE bellbox to attract attention .
Everything helps a barking dog security lights and also CCTV.

How good are shock sensors though?

Do they work across multiple panes of glass?

If you have four large floor to ceiling glass panels/doors, would you then need four sensors?

If you have a PIR just inside the room, what difference would it make? The alarm would still trigger either way.

Thing is with these smart PIR's being so small and cheap, like €8 each (Xiaomi) you can fill your home with them. You don't just have to have one in the hall. You can have one facing each window and door in the house.

stuartkee · 27-12-2017 12:53pm

Shock sensors are very good and connected to the right alarm panel are in my opinion the best way to keep some OUT of your house . If a burglar is at the back door trying to force it the alarm goes off before he has gained entry isn't this what an alarm is supposed to do. Motion detectors pick you up to so filling a house with them will be fun if you ever intended to arm the system while in the house at night. So keep them out and make lots of noise are the two basics . As for selling people the DREAM that by paying for monitoring your in a special club that's a laugh . Phonewatch sell the emperor's new clothes promising piece of mind when the reality is the Gardai hate them the bell box is a dummy box and that the alarm system is plugged in like a Hoover also it's a rubbish product with massive failure rate plus most monitoring from other providers is half of what they charge from €17 to €25 at best .

bk wrote: »

How good are shock sensors though?

Do they work across multiple panes of glass?

If you have four large floor to ceiling glass panels/doors, would you then need four sensors?

If you have a PIR just inside the room, what difference would it make? The alarm would still trigger either way.

Thing is with these smart PIR's being so small and cheap, like €8 each (Xiaomi) you can fill your home with them. You don't just have to have one in the hall. You can have one facing each window and door in the house.

bk · 27-12-2017 1:20pm

stuartkee wrote: »

Shock sensors are very good and connected to the right alarm panel are in my opinion the best way to keep some OUT of your house .

Sure, that is handy, but I don't see a massive difference between this and the alarm being triggered by a PIR in the room 30 seconds later when he enters.

At best you might reduce some damage to the door. But it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to me as long as you have PIR's in every room.

Of course simple window/door open/closed sensors are useful to remind you that you left a window open when arming the alarm.

But I don't see such a big advantage of shock sensors. I suppose no harm in them, but I'm not convinced they add much.

Also you would need a lot of them for my home with 4 big panes of wheel to ceiling glass in the living room, which is very common in new homes.

Plus in your example you could always have a PIR outside the back door linked to a light and IP camera, that would trigger even before your shock sensor would and you could get a notification from the IP camera and be checking it and even talking to the intruder through the camera, even when out of the house.

I think a lot of the old ideas around security systems will change with cheap DIY alarm systems and IP cameras.

stuartkee wrote: »

plus most monitoring from other providers is half of what they charge from €17 to €25 at best .

Still between €204 and €300 a year for very little IMO

That is up to €15,000 over 50 years, for a once in a life time chance you will get burgled to the cost of €600!

Stoner · 27-12-2017 1:50pm

Mod Note:

All while this is an interesting thread, we need to note a few of things.
1) Try to avoid providing technical ways to bypass alarm systems
2) note that there is a home security forum for users to look at too
3) these are only opinions here, there's a lot to be said for experience in installing systems. Having installed systems 20 years ago and now I have a lot of these systems or have had them , there are still 20 years old devices that operate better than some of the current offerings

For what it's worth I think the alarm installers will need to embrace IoT

When they do they can offer all that security advice and add in a bit more automation.

I've seen iot kits that you can add to older security systems in the USA that harness the best of both worlds

FrankGrimes · 27-12-2017 2:00pm

In fairness, to many people there is a big difference between "someone tried to break in, but the alarm went off while they were trying to break in and scared them off" vs "someone actually broke into my property and was in my house". Avoiding the possible direct confrontation the latter can lead to is exactly why many people pay for an alarm.

So to me it's a critical requirement for an alarm system to deliver, though I'd be open to whether PIR + CCTV vs shock sensor is the way to go. Possibly combination of both for a bungalow with a lot of rooflights on flat and pitched roofs.

One downside of shock sensors is if you go wireless, cost racks up big time (just not convinced enough by the reported flakiness of Xiaomi with SmartThings to trust its wireless sensors with my family's safety) but if you go wired do you run cables halfway down those fancy windows you paid a fortune for and detract from their appearance, or do you put the shock sensors up the top where to limit visible cabling but where their functionality is reduced (so you may end up ramping up their sensitivity and then increase risk of false alarms)?

stuartkee · 27-12-2017 2:23pm

It's all about what your using it has to be simple and reilable and also last you year's if your going to invest in it . Shock sensors can be highered and lowered to suit different size windows. Alarms are active cctv is passive the best cctv system in the world will still only record a guy in a hoodie with his head down HD or IP it's still useless to the Gardai and you so invest in a good self monitoring system wired or wireless and don't be going for gimmicks and cheap stuff from China. The best alarm isn't the noisest it's the one where a burglar looks at the house sees it's alarmed with an active bell box and sensors on the perimeter shock and contacts and security lights and internal timers so the house looks occupied .

FrankGrimes wrote: »

In fairness, to many people there is a big difference between "someone tried to break in, but the alarm went off while they were trying to break in and scared them off" vs "someone actually broke into my property and was in my house". Avoiding the possible direct confrontation the latter can lead to is exactly why many people pay for an alarm.

So to me it's a critical requirement for an alarm system to deliver, though I'd be open to whether PIR + CCTV vs shock sensor is the way to go. Possibly combination of both for a bungalow with a lot of rooflights on flat and pitched roofs.

One downside of shock sensors is if you go wireless, cost racks up big time (just not convinced enough by the reported flakiness of Xiaomi with SmartThings to trust its wireless sensors with my family's safety) but if you go wired do you run cables halfway down those fancy windows you paid a fortune for and detract from their appearance, or do you put the shock sensors up the top where to limit visible cabling but where their functionality is reduced (so you may end up ramping up their sensitivity and then increase risk of false alarms)?

bk · 27-12-2017 2:35pm

That is why I'm not at all particularly convinced by shock sensors. I've had them for years and all they have ever done is cause false positives, going off during a strong/wind, storm, etc.

They made sense back when PIR's were expensive and big and ugly, so you only had one or two in the hallway. If you didn't have shock sensors, then someone could break into just your living room, steal your TV and the alarm would never trigger. But now with PIR's so small and cheap, you can have them in every room and be fully covered.

I think something like Rings outdoor camera which is integrated camera/motion sensor/light, front and back of a typical semi-d would well cover you.

Alarms are active cctv is passive the best cctv system in the world will still only record a guy in a hoodie with his head down HD or IP it's still useless to the Gardai

I very much disagree with you on this. Good smart IP cameras, like my Logitech Circle will notify you of movement within seconds and allow you to take action. Much more useful then an alarm triggering when you are away and you not knowing if it is yet another false alarm or not.

I think the ideal system is:
- A smart DIY self monitored alarm system, backed up by:
- Smart self monitored IP cameras.

The IP cameras allow you to tell if the alarm system is just giving you another false alarm or not.

Basically I think the old fashioned: lots of shock/window sensors, backed up by one or two PIR's is changing to lots of PIRs backed up by one or two IP cameras.

stuartkee · 27-12-2017 2:59pm

Yes the diy stuff works (for a while) but again they are in your house at this point. Also the biggest bit you missed is all your solutions are useless in a power failure or a broadband/router issue where as alarms are battery backed up and make noise outaide and alarms work over GSM so it's far more reilable it also sends texts so if your phone has no data or Wi-Fi you still know your alarm is going off . It's all about the sum of the parts the alarm industry has evolved over the years but any thing you suggest to bypass it looks like a bad option to me as it's your house and your family it's contents your trying to protect .

bk wrote: »

That is why I'm not at all particularly convinced by shock sensors. I've had them for years and all they have ever done is cause false positives, going off during a strong/wind, storm, etc.

They made sense back when PIR's were expensive and big and ugly, so you only had one or two in the hallway. If you didn't have shock sensors, then someone could break into just your living room, steal your TV and the alarm would never trigger. But now with PIR's so small and cheap, you can have them in every room and be fully covered.

I think something like Rings outdoor camera which is integrated camera/motion sensor/light, front and back of a typical semi-d would well cover you.

I very much disagree with you on this. Good smart IP cameras, like my Logitech Circle will notify you of movement within seconds and allow you to take action. Much more useful then an alarm triggering when you are away and you not knowing if it is yet another false alarm or not.

I think the ideal system is:
- A smart DIY self monitored alarm system, backed up by:
- Smart self monitored IP cameras.

The IP cameras allow you to tell if the alarm system is just giving you another false alarm or not.

Basically I think the old fashioned: lots of shock/window sensors, backed up by one or two PIR's is changing to lots of PIRs backed up by one or two IP cameras.

jimmycrackcorm · 27-12-2017 3:32pm

bk wrote: »

I think the ideal system is:
- A smart DIY self monitored alarm system, backed up by:
- Smart self monitored IP cameras.
- an IOT alarm controlled device that plays a viscious sounding recording of a Rotweiler

Added probably the most effective extra to the list.

27-12-2017 5:25pm

bk wrote: »

Sure and I'm not saying people should have no alarm system.

Your earlier posts only mention the financial impact of a burglary. When dealing with the aftermath of a break in this matters the least to most people. I was making the point that there is a far bigger picture.

I am all for DIY intruder alarm installs, its not beyond the ability of many DIYers. I also agree that there are many smart devices available that can enhance the security of many properties. These devices are getting cheaper, more powerful and easier to install all of the time.

I feel self monitoring is a useful addition, as it allows you to deactivate a false alarm so you don't piss off your neighbours. Which in my neighbourhood seems to happen far more often then actually break ins.

Agreed 100%.

Also it is worth remembering that just because you have an alarm system, doesn't mean you wouldn't be broken into. Homes with even very expensive, monitored alarms are broken into.

Of course, but an alarm is a great deterrent. Alarms that are monitored by a central monitoring station are overrated and oversold in my opinion. Alarm companies push this because there is a financial incentive for them to do so.

Once an alarm is connected to a monitoring station it most be serviced every year, so there is the profit from that. In addition the monitoring company pays the alarm company an annual fee for every connected alarm. So it is a double whammy for the alarm company each year for each alarm connected to a central monitoring station. Compare this to an alarm that is self monitored, the only opportunity to make money on this is during the install and perhaps 5 years later if a device goes faulty.

Interestingly I've spent a lot of time in South America. I didn't think I saw a single alarm system there. And I'm talking very expensive neighbourhoods with swimming pools and jet skis, etc.

Not really a fair comparison though, many there pay for armed response!

Of course, though I think Smart security alarm systems are getting good enough where almost anyone could install them, even without having any electrical experience (which you generally need for normal alarm systems).

...or you could install a real security system yourself such as a HKC. Not many smart options with it, but there are a few.

To be honest, needing your alarm system maintained yearly just seems like a scam.

I agree. It's just a way for installers to make money in my opinion. A properly installed quality alarm should not need to be serviced that often. I maintain my own alarm so I just fix things as they fail. In 11 years that has been 1 shock sensor and a battery or two.

I think the insurance companies will come under pressure to change with the rise of these smart DIY security systems and IP camera systems.

I thought they would "come under pressure" when I was renewing my car insurance, however despite my spotless driving record, "sensible" car, age and extensive experience they still screw me.

Never forget, insurance companies are w@nker$.

Sure, that is handy, but I don't see a massive difference between this and the alarm being triggered by a PIR in the room 30 seconds later when he enters.

I strongly disagree, there is a world of difference.

My alarm will activate before an intruder enters my home, so a PIR activation is a tad late in my opinion. Perimeter protection provided by shock sensors will activate during an attempt to force open a window or door, this can bring an attempted burglary to a conclusion. PIRs should only be used as a back up. A few years ago a young "gentleman" pounded on my front door (I assume this was to see if anyone was in). This set off the alarm, so I rang the Gardawho apprehended this individual. If I only had PIRs I have little doubt that he would have gained entry.

As we are discussing statistics, many burglaries occur when the occupants are home. Therefore an alarm that relies entirely on PIRs becomes useless as it has to be switched off!

But it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to me as long as you have PIR's in every room.

So no pets then?

Also you would need a lot of them for my home with 4 big panes of wheel to ceiling glass in the living room, which is very common in new homes.

No, you wouldn't. One inertia shock sensor can provide protection to a very large window. Besides the cost is minimal compared to the cost of the window.

I'm not at all particularly convinced by shock sensors. I've had them for years and all they have ever done is cause false positives, going off during a strong/wind, storm, etc.

Quality inertia shock sensors are very reliable when installed and configured correctly.

Stoner wrote: »

For what it's worth I think the alarm installers will need to embrace IoT

Agree 100%, many are caught in a time warp in my opinion.
The world has moved on, they need to move with it.

bk · 27-12-2017 11:29pm

stuartkee wrote: »

Yes the diy stuff works (for a while) but again they are in your house at this point. Also the biggest bit you missed is all your solutions are useless in a power failure or a broadband/router issue where as alarms are battery backed up and make noise outaide and alarms work over GSM so it's far more reilable it also sends texts so if your phone has no data or Wi-Fi you still know your alarm is going off . It's all about the sum of the parts the alarm industry has evolved over the years but any thing you suggest to bypass it looks like a bad option to me as it's your house and your family it's contents your trying to protect .

My broadband router and wifi are on a UPS, not a problem.

If my Logitech Circle cameras or SmartThings system go offline, I get an offline warning within 5 minutes (I've tested it). So then I'd be straight onto my neighbours to check what is happening, check on the place, etc.

Nothing is guaranteed about GSM, it can easily and cheaply be defeated (I won't mention how, but we all know how).

I've read that even with HKC monitoring systems, if the comms channels are taken out, it can be up to 5 hours before you get notified of the system being offline!! My systems 5 minutes is a damn bit better then that.

So there are always pros and cons about these things.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer if my system had GSM backup and their is nothing particular about smart DIY systems to say that they can't have one, it is a very cheap component. If you look in China you will see loads of DIY alarm panels with GSM backup channel for VERY cheap prices.

I think it is only a matter of time until we get a smart alarm system here with GSM backup built in.

But for me, not really a big deal. I live in an apartment feed by Fiber, it is WAY more reliable then GSM is.

BTW you can get external alarms/flasher boxes for Samsung SmartThings.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Added probably the most effective extra to the list.

Haha, yup, Xiaomi can do this

2011 wrote: »

Of course, but an alarm is a great deterrent. Alarms that are monitored by a central monitoring station are overrated and oversold in my opinion. Alarm companies push this because there is a financial incentive for them to do so.

I agree, I see very little value in monitoring, it all seems a bit of just playing on peoples fears.

A decent DIY system with self monitoring seems more then enough for most people. And these DIY systems are getting even easier to install and smarter.

2011 wrote: »

Not really a fair comparison though, many there pay for armed response!

I know, but it is a bit of an eye opener and helps you realise how lucky we are to live in a country as safe as Ireland and the whole expensive monitored systems is a bit overplayed.

2011 wrote: »

...or you could install a real security system yourself such as a HKC. Not many smart options with it, but there are a few.

I have a HKC system. I don't really see much advantage to it.

2011 wrote: »

I agree. It's just a way for installers to make money in my opinion. A properly installed quality alarm should not need to be serviced that often. I maintain my own alarm so I just fix things as they fail. In 11 years that has been 1 shock sensor and a battery or two.

Yup same here, 10 years now and just one shock sensor too.

2011 wrote: »

I strongly disagree, there is a world of difference.

My alarm will activate before an intruder enters my home, so a PIR activation is a tad late in my opinion. Perimeter protection provided by shock sensors will activate during an attempt to force open a window or door, this can bring an attempted burglary to a conclusion. PIRs should only be used as a back up. A few years ago a young "gentleman" pounded on my front door (I assume this was to see if anyone was in). This set off the alarm, so I rang the Gardawho apprehended this individual. If I only had PIRs I have little doubt that he would have gained entry.

And the alarm would have activated 60 seconds later and the individual would be apprehended inside your home, which would be even better for the Gardai as the person could then be done for burglary, versus him just given a warning and let go as banging on peoples doors isn't illegal.

And again a motion activated IP camera would have just as likely to have caught this person and notified you, with the advantage that you could actually see him and now it was a person rather then a strong wind, you could have frightened him away by talking to him through the camera and then supplied the video to the Gardai.

2011 wrote: »

As we are discussing statistics, many burglaries occur when the occupants are home. Therefore an alarm that relies entirely on PIRs becomes useless as it has to be switched off!

Well it will work at night with part sets. IP cameras with motion sensors front and back of your home can give great coverage and warning too.

2011 wrote: »

So no pets then?

PIR's that ignore pets are available. And IP cameras have modes that can ignore them too.

2011 wrote: »

No, you wouldn't. One inertia shock sensor can provide protection to a very large window. Besides the cost is minimal compared to the cost of the window.

I'd need four just for my living room so (four separate, floor to ceiling glass frames). Probably would need lots for each of my bedroom windows too, they are large too.

I'm not sure they are practical at all for modern homes that tend to have lots of big glass.

And why does no one mention glass break audio sensors?

They seem to be very popular in the US, where people have lots of glass. But I almost never hear about them here.

2011 wrote: »

Quality inertia shock sensors are very reliable when installed and configured correctly.

Lots of if's. My HKC ones have caused lots of false alarms over the years.

Don't get me wrong, they are useful tool to have in the bag. And BTW you can absolutely get them for DIY systems even like SmartThings.

I just see them being mentioned a lot over on the home security forum as some sort of silver bullet.

I don't think there is any harm with them. But I also think they have become less important with the drop in prices (and size) of PIR's and the rise of cheap IP camera systems.

I'm just trying to challenge ideas and figure out what is really useful and what is just oversold or used because that is way the things always have been.

bk · 28-12-2017 1:32am

Been thinking a bit more about the whole PIR versus shock sensor thing and had a thought.

Why don't we use PIR's outside our homes, to for instance cover the drive way.

Well many people do, PIR activated flood lights are highly recommended. Though obviously you don't want that triggering your entire alarm system and annoying everyone in the neighbourhood because the post man came up the drive.

However with a smart system, you do have other options. You could for instance have an extrenal PIR trigger:
- A Flood light
- Smart Lights in your hallway and front room
- Play the noise of a barking dog through speakers at a volume loud enough to hear by the person in the drive way but not as loud as a siren.

In other words, make the place look very lived in, likely to send someone chancing their arm packing, but just ignored by the post man.

Of course you could also add IP cameras to the above, sending you a notification of the movement and video of the person.

Not saying that suits every home, but could be a really good option for many.

Stoner · 28-12-2017 3:03am

bk wrote:

And the alarm would have activated 60 seconds later and the individual would be apprehended inside your home, which would be even better for the Gardai as the person could then be done for burglary, versus him just given a warning and let go as banging on peoples doors isn't illegal.

BK Again just to highlight this issue, while I recognise that this is an opinion you hold, perimeter protection is far better than PIR protection on it's own. It costs more, it's better.

This is a very well known concept in an industry I've worked in for years.

Also mag contacts are not as good as mag contacts and inertia contacts.

If you've had a poorly installed alarm system before then so be it, but I fear that you are driving the iot side of the argument as you know it well.

However let's be honest how much messing around does your iot kit take?

It's ok for us having computer science and Engineering qualifications but not everyone shares that.

To hit back at some of the iot kit

Samsung, lovely hub and power outlet

The multi sensor in my hall needs it's third battery now,
The door contact regularly shows as closed when the door is open , it popped off it's cradle after 6 months and I had to change the battery again last week, the unit for my keys ate a battery in 6 months and doesn't work now.

If you don't believe me check my posts on this months ago where I said their sensors are poor quality and massively over priced (great hub, support and power outlet) it's almost as if a different team designed the power outlet and the sensors.

I've 24 detection devices on my house alarm. They all work on top of that I've co2, smoke and heat detectors on it

Everything works

With Smartthings I'd have to change about 20 batteries a year, pain in the backside.

Don't start me on the xaiomi stuff its tidy but again delicate, battery life is ok though

The issue I have as a mod here is that the items that the iot suppliers don't have like dualtech pirs, inertia sensors you are needlessly running them down

There are situations where you have to use dualtech pirs.

PIRs are very useful if they are in a room that is locked away from you at night.

I've one in my porch, I've no inertia sensors on my porch windows if you set the porch pir off you still have a double rebate door with a mag inertia on it to get through, so if you kick that the police are called.

Compare this to just mag contacts and a pir in a hall and the guy is in your house.

Regarding the 600 euro average amount stolen. For me and many people we'd pay the 600 to take away the horrible feeling that's left after an intruder has been in your house.

So again I agree with a lot if what you are saying, but a properly installed alarm with perimeter protection is advised here and in the home security forum, the IoT is secondary to that imo.

I agree that there is a place for diy alarms, but there is certainly a place for a professionally installed one, where risk assessments are carried out and customers are advised correctly.

For example on your apartment you could have an inertia sensor on your large windows set to detect a gross Alarm, if you had a pir in the room too,
Someone smashing the window would trigger a gross Alarm the if they then triggered the PIR you could call the cops, two activation rule.

You should really have that area locked off, I've that in my house where I have velux windows

Also you can part arm with perimeter protection, not with just pirs

Also using a dualtech with pir and microwave is a better job again, and again not that readily available from the iot guys

So while the technical components are close to being there , and we can have great chats about how to achieve different levels of detection, I don't think it's at the stage where we should advise users to drop the traditional model.

Believe me Siemens, HKC etc is far more robust that Samsung's and xaoimi.

We haven't even discussed tamper circuits, or lack of from the iot offers

And yes the new kit is small and look a bit better but 8 month battery life is a joke.

Again the likes of HKC need to improve their offering here, their panels are particularly poor at iot integration, you can do next to nothing with them. A proper security alarm panel that is iot compatible is the way to go imo.

However a nice dual Ethernet and GSM card is a welcome addition on the HKC panels.

The main suppliers need to develop a bolt on expansion kit that turns their alarms into iot units. Get the advantages of wired systems.

Again it's been done for ADT systems in the states about 80 euro for an add-on to give you all your sensors in an iot platform.

One system for your security system is advised, not a multiple layered system.

Again it might suit you or I but not most.

One thing I do like though are the iot cameras, I've tried three types (excluding the ring) and two are better than the hikvision system I have imo. But again I've no monthly charge for it.

We are going to end up with batteries everywhere, having the alarm wired, with two comms paths and iot would be great.

28-12-2017 9:38am

bk wrote: »

Nothing is guaranteed about GSM, it can easily and cheaply be defeated (I won't mention how, but we all know how).

Agreed.
This provides a strong argument to use multiple paths for communications.

I've read that even with HKC monitoring systems, if the comms channels are taken out, it can be up to 5 hours before you get notified of the system being offline!! My systems 5 minutes is a damn bit better then that.

Yes, if the cheapest price plan is selected, there are other price plans.
Types of communications, number of comms paths, redundancy, polling intervals etc... should be driven by a risk assessment.
Professional alarm installers are required to carry out a RA.

BTW you can get external alarms/flasher boxes for Samsung SmartThings.

Yes, but to me they scream "amateur intruder alarm system". I accept that this may be because I have installed hundreds of "real" intruder alarms. I accept that average intruder may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer and one bellbox may be just as much a deterrent as another.

And the alarm would have activated 60 seconds later and the individual would be apprehended inside your home, which would be even better for the Gardai as the person could then be done for burglary, versus him just given a warning and let go as banging on peoples doors isn't illegal.

I don't want the Gardao apprehend anyone in my home! I would rather an intruder gets away than gains entry.

An intruder in my home = failed security system as far as I am concerned.

I'd need four just for my living room so (four separate, floor to ceiling glass frames).

One per window, so less than €50 for a quality HKC inertia shock sensor. I can assure that when installed correctly even on large windows they will perform extremely well. I think that you have to accept that sometimes a professional is required to provide a robust solution.

I agree that PIRs and IP cameras can form an important part of a security solution. I am not arguing against the use of these devices. However in my view they should supplement a security system, not replace key components such as shock sensors.

"Pet modes" for PIRs are not reliable, particularly for large dogs. Besides even if this worked 100% how do you suggest that a PIR tells the difference between a homeowner and an intruder?? When an alarm is on part set the idea is that the occupants should be able to move around freely within the house.

bk · 28-12-2017 6:29pm

I was going to answer your points one by one, but we would be here all day, so let me step back and give my overall opinion.

The home security industry is facing massive disruptions from multiple directions and technologies.

- DIY systems wireless systems
- IP as a comms channel
- Self monitoring versus monitored
- Cloud IP cams backed up by AI
- HA tech layered on top of all that

I think they need to move fast our they will get left behind.

I feel that the home security industry is full of too much sharp practice. Overselling of products, pushing expensive systems based on fear of something that is statistically very unlikely to happen. Too much silver bullet solutions, "install this expensive alarm system and you will be all good" while ignoring many other important aspects of home security such as physical security, high quality locks, knowing your neighbours and watching out for them, Neighbourhood watches, etc.

I've no doubt that they are very good and honest installers out their, but I look around at systems installed at family and friends houses by so called "professionals" and I see systems that cost a great deal of money, but have gaping security holes in them.

Take my parents and sisters systems, HKC, expensive, with lots of shock sensors etc. (great) and connected to a monitoring service at €200 per year. Yet connected over phone line only, no GSM backup channel and no polling! So if the phone line was taken out, then the alarm system could be going off for hours and the "monitoring center" and my parents would be no the wiser. What are they paying for, such a waste and more dangerously perhaps, offering them a false sense of security to them.

Yet my cheap as chips SmartThings and Logitech Circle cams would be notifying me of an outage within 5 minutes for free!

Or take Phone Watch, €500 to install three crappy wireless PIR/cameras followed by €400+ a year monitoring fee and you don't even own it! You'd be much better off with a 3 Arlo camera pack for €200 once off fee. Would give you much better cameras and no ongoing fees.

I agree that the DIY systems available in Ireland aren't there yet that I'd recommend them. But they already seem to be there in the US and it is only a matter of time before they come to Ireland and it will be a breath of fresh air that the industry needs IMO.

I think any security system sold today, whether DIY or professional, should come with the following out of the box for free:
- IP Comms channel
- Notifications of alarm triggered
- Remote activation/deactivation of alarm by app
- Notification of system off line with 5 minutes.

If my £50 SmartThings hub can do the above, then a €500+ alarm system should be embarrassed it can't do the same.

I'm looking at HKC, who if I'm not mistaken require a €80 per year GSM channel to do the same! Nonsense.

Fair enough if you opt to pay for a GSM backup channel, or hell even full monitoring. But a €500+ system should absolutely come with IP out of the box for free.

I know some systems exist that do this, like Siemens, Comfort, etc. However most installers in Ireland don't seem to be interested in installing them, instead preferring HKC or similar which end up locking you into expensive monitoring and maintenance contracts!

As a result, I think many ordinary consumers are absolutely feed up with it and dying for a decent DIY option so that they can bypass the whole sordid show and do it themselves. An affordable, easy to install system, that allows you to monitor it yourself.

One thing I'd like you guys to think about, over 50% of homes in Ireland have no security system at all! Why?

Maybe it is because €500 to €1000 for a home security system and possibly hundreds more a year in monitoring is far beyond the means of what many people can afford, for something that their is just a 1 in a 100 chance might happen!

This is where a €200 DIY system can help, maybe cheap enough that a significant number of these sort of people can afford to get some protection. Sure it probably isn't as good as a €1000 system, well I would hope not, otherwise why pay more, but maybe good enough to give 80% of what it does and much better then nothing which is what 50% of people currently have.

So of course it is good to recommend a fancier, more expensive system and to point out the pros and cons, but it is also important to keep in mind that not everyone can afford that expensive system and all you might be doing is putting people off the idea of getting a home security system at all, all the while perhaps a less capable, but good enough system, more inline with their budget might be right there.

And of course, with all this, I haven't said anything about HA, which is a whole other layer on top.

bk · 28-12-2017 6:48pm

BTW Thanks for discussing this with me, it is really interesting to think about these things and where this industry might go in the future and the technologies we might see.

Stoner · 28-12-2017 7:49pm

bk wrote:

I want to mention this point, when it comes to security, multiple layered defenses is what is recommended.

No it's not what I'm saying you are talking about network and layered security, this is different, you know there is a difference. Obviously you want layers of intact security

You don't want a single solution made up of multiple layers of technology that are all required to operate to give you complete coverage

I took it that we'd be past that clarification, maybe I didn't word it correctly.

29-12-2017 11:36am

bk wrote: »

I was going to answer your points one by one

Sound, seeing as though we only disagree on one point who about responding to that?

We seem to disagree about the importance of perimeter protection. A third of burglaries take place between 5-8pm, so when you are at home! On this basis I feel that it is very important to have an alarm that can provide adequate protection for people when they are home. PIR's alone can not achieve this as these devices would have to be disarmed when at home to prevent alarm activations by the occupants of the house. A lack of perimeter protection means a choice of either not entering a room that is protected by a PIR or not having that room protected. Due to the fact many burglaries occur when occupants are at home, neither option is desirable in my opinion.

When arming an alarm that has perimeter protection the system will advise if any external doors or windows have been left open. This is important as one in five burglaries involves a burglar getting access through an unsecured door or window. The fact that some can not get their inertia shock sensors to work in a reliable manner does not mean that the use of these devices is not the correct approach.

The view that if an intruder gains entry to a property for a short time before the alarm actives is not that different from the intruder setting off the alarm without gaining entry is not shared by many. Any intruder in a home can have a lasting phycological impact on occupants, end of.

bk · 29-12-2017 1:38pm

Stoner wrote: »

No it's not what I'm saying you are talking about network and layered security, this is different, you know there is a difference. Obviously you want layers of intact security

You don't want a single solution made up of multiple layers of technology that are all required to operate to give you complete coverage

I took it that we'd be past that clarification, maybe I didn't word it correctly.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused what you are talking about here so?

"You don't want a single solution made up of multiple layers of technology that are all required to operate to give you complete coverage"

Isn't that exactly what a standard, security system like HKC is?

You have to rely on shock sensors and motion sensors and magnetic sensors hooked up to a panel, with a battery and separate alarm bell box, etc. Those are all different technologies which need to work together in order to give you full coverage!

I mean it is exactly the same thing, a single point of failure. It can be disabled for many reasons, both accidental or malicious.

2011 wrote: »

Sound, seeing as though we only disagree on one point who about responding to that?

Sorry, absolutely, happy too. I didn't just because I felt we were getting side tracked about the shock sensors, which wasn't really core to my OP, since of course you can get wireless shock sensors for DIY systems if you want, it just potentially adds cost.

I'll say that you have in fact convinced me that there can be value to shock sensors to some people, in some situations. For instance a person with a very large home, who might not hear someone breaking in at the other end of the home or as you mentioned someone with Pets.

However I don't think they are the silver bullet solution that they are often made out to be on the home security forum and I think their value is being diminished with advancing technology and each person getting a system in should weigh up their value versus spending that money on a different element of home security.

For instance you mentioned it would cost €200 to get 4 shock sensors for my 4 windows in my living room. Yet it cost me less that that to get my two Logitech Circle cameras. I really don't think 4 shock sensors would enhance my homes security more then those two cameras have.

2011 wrote: »

We seem to disagree about the importance of perimeter protection. A third of burglaries take place between 5-8pm, so when you are at home!

I'm not crazy about stats like that at all. It ignores that fact that you are very ulikely to burgled at all in the first place. Less then 1 in 100 chance. So burglaries at that time represent just a 0.25% chance.

Also the vast majority of burglaries don't involve violence. I can't find stats on it, wish I could, but when it does happen, it usually gets reported in the news, so maybe a few hundred a year!

Interestingly burglaries only represent less then 10% of all reported crimes (not including road offences).

The reality is you are much more likely to be attacked on the street then be burgled and even then, less likely to suffer violence during a burglary.

BTW I actually work from home quiet a lot, so I'm home much more then just 5 to 8pm. I really don't worry at all about someone breaking in when I'm home. It is an overblown fear in a country as safe as Ireland.

2011 wrote: »

When arming an alarm that has perimeter protection the system will advise if any external doors or windows have been left open.

Simple magnetic open/close sensors will do the same, no need for shock sensors for that. I did mention this earlier.

2011 wrote: »

This is important as one in five burglaries involves a burglar getting access through an unsecured door or window. The fact that some can not get their inertia shock sensors to work in a reliable manner does not mean that the use of these devices is not the correct approach.

Again, careful with stats like that. You are now talking about 0.20% of homes a year being burgled in this manner and remember that more then 50% of all homes have no alarm system at all.

This stat is more about reminding people to keep their doors locked and to use good quality locks.

2011 wrote: »

The view that if an intruder gains entry to a property for a short time before the alarm actives is not that different from the intruder setting off the alarm without gaining entry is not shared by many. Any intruder in a home can have a lasting phycological impact on occupants, end of.

The PIR's in my system would activate literally one step into this room. The psychological impact thing is massively overblown in this case IMO.

If a person was psychological impacted by a burglar only making it one step into the room, then they would likely be equally impacted by the damage the burglar did trying to access the window/door in a system with shock sensors.

Again I'm not saying that shock sensors have no value. I just feel likely their use is overblown.

bk · 29-12-2017 1:52pm

Talking about stats, it is a pity that the CSO numbers don't breakdown the number of burglaries where a resident actually encounters the burglar and also the number that end up involving violence.

I suspect that these numbers would actually be much lower then most people believe from the media.

It would also be interesting to see the number of burglaries that occur where an alarm system is present.

I also would love to see a break down of burglaries per household income categories.

I've no proof of it, but I suspect that a disproportionate number of burglaries actually happen in working class areas where people can least afford expensive alarm systems and that middle class folks with expensive systems are actually less likely to be targeted anyway. I'm aware they can and do travel, but statistically.

Which is why I think their is real value in cheaper DIY systems. No of course they mightn't (and probably shouldn't) have all the features of the more expensive system, but at least they are something and might help those 50% of other people who currently don't have any system.

29-12-2017 6:16pm

@ bk:

1) Glad I have convinced you!

2) Typo in my earlier post. Four HKC sensors for you room would cost €50, not €50 each. You won’t get a Logitech Circle camera for that.

3) I agree that the chance of a violent encounter in most Irish homes is remote. But I am of the view that if installing an alarm install it properly. Having said this elderly people living in isolated areas can be understandably nervous.

4) if installing reed switches to determine that a door or window is open or not why not install an inertia shock sensor at the same time? A quality one will cost about €12 and the cable is there already! It’s a no brainer.

Apologies for the iPhone response (full of typos no doubt).

bk · 30-12-2017 5:49pm

2011 wrote: »

2) Typo in my earlier post. Four HKC sensors for you room would cost €50, not €50 each. You won’t get a Logitech Circle camera for that.

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.

2011 wrote: »

4) if installing reed switches to determine that a door or window is open or not why not install an inertia shock sensor at the same time? A quality one will cost about €12 and the cable is there already! It’s a no brainer.

Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Though I was thinking more generically then my particular circumstances, perhaps about a person building a system from scratch.

In fairness to HKC, I think they make an excellent, reliable basic system in terms of alerting you when you are home of an attempted break in.

However I'm not at all crazy about the direction they have gone in terms of IP connectivity and apps.

The thing that worries me about my old HKC 812 panel is not someone breaking in when I'm home, it doesn't scare me at all, I think it is a somewhat overblown fear. The real concern is the system going off when I'm away for the weekend, due to a false alarm and bothering my neighbours all weekend long. This has happened 2 or 3 times over the years and has led to unhappy neighbours.

If I'm not mistaken (and I maybe), the only option for the HKC 812 is a GSM module at €150, €8 per app and €60 per year for self monitoring! And then there is the whole 5 hour polling! Seems pretty poor value to me IMO.

Again if I'm not mistaken even if I was to upgrade to a 1070 with wifi card, you would still have the €60 securewave charge!

Think about this, my £50 SmartThings hub gives me free monitoring, almost instantaneous notifications and 5 minute offline polling!

So while HKC might have better shock sensor options, it is certainly much poorer in terms of IP connectivity. Pros and Cons of different systems and people with different needs.

I do know there are other panels out their with free apps and self monitoring and better polling and I'm hoping to get one of those sorted out in a few months as finances allow. But the whole thing seems a bit of a mess.

BTW did I mention that my HKC panel is in the hall, directly above the keypad :rolleyes:

stuartkee · 30-12-2017 8:54pm

I walk into your house through the front door flick the mains on the fuse board and tell me what happens to your system?

bk wrote: »

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.

Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Though I was thinking more generically then my particular circumstances, perhaps about a person building a system from scratch.

In fairness to HKC, I think they make an excellent, reliable basic system in terms of alerting you when you are home of an attempted break in.

However I'm not at all crazy about the direction they have gone in terms of IP connectivity and apps.

The thing that worries me about my old HKC 812 panel is not someone breaking in when I'm home, it doesn't scare me at all, I think it is a somewhat overblown fear. The real concern is the system going off when I'm away for the weekend, due to a false alarm and bothering my neighbours all weekend long. This has happened 2 or 3 times over the years and has led to unhappy neighbours.

If I'm not mistaken (and I maybe), the only option for the HKC 812 is a GSM module at €150, €8 per app and €60 per year for self monitoring! And then there is the whole 5 hour polling! Seems pretty poor value to me IMO.

Again if I'm not mistaken even if I was to upgrade to a 1070 with wifi card, you would still have the €60 securewave charge!

Think about this, my £50 SmartThings hub gives me free monitoring, almost instantaneous notifications and 5 minute offline polling!

So while HKC might have better shock sensor options, it is certainly much poorer in terms of IP connectivity. Pros and Cons of different systems and people with different needs.

I do know there are other panels out their with free apps and self monitoring and better polling and I'm hoping to get one of those sorted out in a few months as finances allow. But the whole thing seems a bit of a mess.

BTW did I mention that my HKC panel is in the hall, directly above the keypad :rolleyes:

31-12-2017 10:19am

bk wrote: »

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.

As this forum is all about DIY, yes (just like your cameras)

Installing a shock sensor or two is easy peasy.

Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Exactly.

I am only using HKC as an example of a good alarm system.
HKC systems are not perfect, no system is.

Ultimately how secure the premesis is will depend on a number of variables but mainly how it is installed, what types of components are used, how it is programmed as well as the manufacture of the system.

bk · 02-01-2018 6:01pm

stuartkee wrote: »

I walk into your house through the front door flick the mains on the fuse board and tell me what happens to your system?

Which element of my home security system?

HKC -

Panel will beep for a couple of seconds, then it will alarm. However I'd be non the wiser if I'm away as it isn't connected. Even if it was, since the panel is right next to the fuse box, it would be trivial for some one to disable the control panel before it could send out a warning.

Xiaomi -

I'd get an immediate notification (tested at one or two seconds) as you entered the front door and alarm siren would trigger. Their is no entry delay.
Pulling the fuse would have no immediate effect as I've the hub and my wifi router on a UPS, though they could finally take that out too, but I'd have gotten a few notifications by then.

SmartThings -

Same as the Xiaomi above, immediate trigger (tested, one or two seconds) and notification of alarm system as you came in the door as no entry delay. Note the hub has battery backup.

In addition I'd also get a notification 5 minutes after the system went offline.

Note, I don't have it yet, but you can get external battery operated sirens for smart things which would continue to alarm after the hub was taken out.

Logitech Circle -

Notification and video of the intruder coming in the front door (within about 30 seconds or less, tested). My circle 1 would continue to work after fuse tripped as it has a battery. The Circle 2 would go offline.

Notifcation 5 minutes after either cameras going offline.

BTW as an aside, I live in an apartment, so you would have to had gotten through the key carded doors to the building. Along the well light corridors with CCTV cameras and gotten through my fire rated timber door with a 5 lever mortise lock (could be improved) in a very heavily trafficked area of the building. Not impossible of course, just unlikely.

2011 wrote: »

As this forum is all about DIY, yes (just like your cameras)

Installing a shock sensor or two is easy peasy.

Cool, thanks, I really most start looking in to how to DIY this for myself. I'm always a little cautious about anything electrical as it isn't really my area of expertise.

Though I would mention that I do think their are different levels of DIY. I agree that while my elderly parents would struggle to setup the Circle cameras themselves, I'd say a lot of people could set it up easily in a few minutes. Certainly most younger people comfortable with using smartphones and apps would have no problems. Wiring in "professional" security systems is a bit more hardcore.

2011 wrote: »

Ultimately how secure the premesis is will depend on a number of variables but mainly how it is installed, what types of components are used, how it is programmed as well as the manufacture of the system.

Absolutely, I agree 100%, plus I'd add to that not to forget about physical security, good doors, good windows, good locks on them, using the locks, making your home looked lived in, knowing your neighbours and watching out for them, etc.

07-01-2018 1:53pm

bk wrote: »

HKC -

Panel will beep for a couple of seconds, then it will alarm. However I'd be non the wiser if I'm away as it isn't connected. Even if it was, since the panel is right next to the fuse box, it would be trivial for some one to disable the control panel before it could send out a warning.

The bit in bold is disappointing. In defence of the alarm installer I would guess that this is the point at which the electrician wired the alarm cables to.

BTW as an aside, I live in an apartment, so you would have to had gotten through the key carded doors to the building. Along the well light corridors with CCTV cameras and gotten through my fire rated timber door with a 5 lever mortise lock (could be improved) in a very heavily trafficked area of the building.

These are important security additions that are frequently underrated when in many cases this may be far more difficult to defeat than the HKC alarm system described above!! This is particularly the case if the door lock was upgraded.

bk · 08-01-2018 12:06am

2011 wrote: »

The bit in bold is disappointing. In defence of the alarm installer I would guess that this is the point at which the electrician wired the alarm cables to.

Yes, though what is on the other side of this hall wall is the study/utility room. It would have been trivial to put it in there instead.

As an aside, the builders should also have put the fuse box and comms box in the study too, purely for aesthetic reasons. Three ugly boxes in the hall that could have been in the study instead. Sometimes I wonder if these "professionals" even think about what they are doing or just bang these up without thinking about it.

BTW with HKC systems like this, can the entry delay be set to be on just one or two sensors? So if the panel was in the study instead, entry delay on just the hall door sensor and hallway PIR, but not on the PIR in the study. So if someone entered the study during the entry time, the alarm would immediately trigger?

2011 wrote: »

These are important security additions that are frequently underrated when in many cases this may be far more difficult to defeat than the HKC alarm system described above!! This is particularly the case if the door lock was upgraded.

Yep, a second lock for the door is on my todo list. Any recommendations appreciated?

BTW I was just playing with the SmartThings Multi-Sensor, turns out it has a accelerometer built in (and a thermostat!). So it can detect shocks and vibrations. Banging on the window or door frame will trigger it.

I suspect ideally it should be attached directly to the glass for best results, rather then the frame and I'd need four for full coverage. But at least it is no worse then what I had with the HKC system.

bk · 08-01-2018 9:55pm

So today I did a walk test of my HKC system and I have to say the shock sensors don't seem to be working very well.

Slamming the windows as hard as I could without actually breaking them and nothing. I had to slam the frame, just under the sensor for the alarm to trigger. Doesn't seem very effective. The SmartThing sensors seem more sensitive.

BTW I always thought these doors and windows seem very strong and solid, much more solid then I've seen in other homes, but I took a closer look:

- Laminated safety/security glass, BS 6206 Class A. Turns out very hard to smash through.
- No external lock, so can't be bumped/picked from outside.
- Internally beaded from what I can tell.
- Door locks to the frame at 9 different points all around the frame.

I'm no expert on this, but all seems very solid and secure.

08-01-2018 11:58pm

bk wrote: »

So today I did a walk test of my HKC system and I have to say the shock sensors don't seem to be working very well.

If faulty they can be replaced for small money, and then once set up properly they will perform extremely well, trust me.

Slamming the windows as hard as I could without actually breaking them and nothing. I had to slam the frame, just under the sensor for the alarm to trigger.

What gross attack and pulse setting are they configured to? Sounds like the set point for GA is set too high as they are generally over sensitive when they need they need replacing.

Wossack · 09-01-2018 10:48am

my thoughts of fleshing out my smartthings environment to cover more alarm functions evaporated when the app (used to arm/disarm) went awol - the cloud service went down, and the app was totally unresponsive, until it became available again. Thankfully I didnt have a battery backed siren wailing..

09-01-2018 12:04pm

Wossack wrote: »

my thoughts of fleshing out my smartthings environment to cover more alarm functions evaporated when the app (used to arm/disarm) went awol

This demonstrates that these devices can supplement a real intruder alarm system, but should not be used to replace one.

bk · 09-01-2018 12:46pm

2011 wrote: »

This demonstrates that these devices can supplement a real intruder alarm system, but should not be used to replace one.

Well it depends on what you mean by "these devices". Yes SmartThings is a cloud based device, so I wouldn't rely on it completely.

But there are plenty of DIY Smart Alarm systems in the US, which work completely offline and look to be just as good as any "real" intruder system.

I have to say every real intruder system I've looked at amongst family and friends has gaping security holes in them, so I wouldn't assume that just because you have a "real" system, it is any better in reality.

09-01-2018 3:23pm

bk wrote: »

Yes SmartThings is a cloud based device, so I wouldn't rely on it completely.

My point exactly.

But there are plenty of DIY Smart Alarm systems in the US, which work completely offline and look to be just as good as any "real" intruder system.

Easily obtainable in Ireland? Such as?

I have to say every real intruder system I've looked at amongst family and friends has gaping security holes in them, so I wouldn't assume that just because you have a "real" system, it is any better in reality.

Absolutely, but as discussed earlier this is generally because it was poorly installed, not because the system itself isn’t up to scratch.

bk · 09-01-2018 4:08pm

2011 wrote: »

Easily obtainable in Ireland? Such as?

There are already a bunch of DIY wireless security systems available in your local maplins or Amazon from the likes of Yale, Honeywell, etc.

Wireless systems, with app control/notifications and even 3G/4G as a backup channel, battery backup and external bells/sirens.

They aren't Smart/HA systems, but there are dozens in the US either out or coming in the next few months, from Nest, Go Abode, Blink, Ring, ADT, etc.

I've no doubt at least some of these will come to Ireland in the next year. After all, Nest, Blink and Ring all already sell security cams and other products in the UK/Ireland market.

BTW iSmart Alarm is available here from Amazon.

2011 wrote: »

Absolutely, but as discussed earlier this is generally because it was poorly installed, not because the system itself isn’t up to scratch.

And pretty much the same for every "real" system I've seen installed. There is no such thing as perfect security. All systems and even installs have their trade offs.

09-01-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

There are already a bunch of DIY wireless security systems available in your local maplins or Amazon from the likes of Yale, Honeywell, etc.

Sorry but I just can’t take Yale alarm components seriously. Very poor quality IMHO. Honeywell make some great instrumentation, PLCs and controllers so I could imagine that they may make some good security components. Have you used any Honeywell alarm devices ?

There is no such thing as perfect security. All systems and even installs have their trade offs.

Yes but when devices fail to meet the most minimum standards of performance then they should not be used instead of a system that does meet these standards.

bk · 09-01-2018 5:49pm

2011 wrote: »

Sorry but I just can’t take Yale alarm components seriously. Very poor quality IMHO. Honeywell make some great instrumentation, PLCs and controllers so I could imagine that they may make some good security components. Have you used any Honeywell alarm devices ?

Afraid not, I only saw this option last week for the first time!

2011 wrote: »

Yes but when devices fail to meet the most minimum standards of performance then they should not be used instead of a system that does meet these standards.

Again, that depends on what you are talking about? SmartThings given it's cloud nature, then fair enough. But all those other DIY systems. Or even the ones that will come from the US in the next few months. I don't see how they fail to meet minimum standards of performance?

Every system of course has pros and cons and trade offs.

Afterall a HKC 812 with no comms is pretty useless too if you are out and it goes off. No one takes any notice of a ringing bell anymore.

BTW As an aside, the ADT SmartThings system seems very interesting. It seems to try and solve the reliability/cloud issues with SmartThings with "real" security hardware. Though pricey for a DIY system.

Stoner · 09-01-2018 8:52pm

bk wrote:

I don't see how they fail to meet minimum standards of performance?

BK I'm posting as a mod here.

I agree that the intruder alarm installers need to embrace IOT.
However due to your excellent engineering knowledge, you are an influential poster here and I'm concerned that some of the information given here might carry too much weight.

Some of the statements above can be misleading.

For example Smartthings are mentioned in the same post here as performing to a minimum standard.

Tampers are required on intruder alarm systems.
This is an independent tamper cct on the HKC system you have , it may be shored out as could your inertia contacts.
The xaoimi equipment is the same.

However on any intruder alarm I've had ( or specified or installed back in the day) would sound if sensors were tampered with.

This is part of a minimum standard.

No only do Smartthings sensors have no tampers they are installed on a cradle and simply snap off. I could walk off with them.

A sounder sitting on table is not the second standard as a SAB unit installed on a high wall.

Inerita sensors work very well, your's don't that's an issue with your system, I suggested you get it addressed.

You might not like perimeter protection, but it is a very important element in a decent system. Again you might not like it but it's very useful, and specified in many systems where enhanced coverage is required, repositories, banks etc.

Again IOT systems are great but they do not perform to a minimum standard for many, many reasons, most of which you don't like or rate, but the fact is that there is a minimum standard. The iot kit you have (bar the circle cameras,I have what you have) your kit does not meet any standard that I've even known or worked to.

Again you might not rate the gaps, they can be a useful system and can enhance a standard system, they have features that are beyond the basic standard, but they also fail to meet the minimum intrude alarm standard

Again the above is not an opinion. It's referencing standards and as you know engineering is all about standards.

I hope you take this in the correct light.

Finally on these standards, you can buy a Siemens ir HKC panel, install it and connect one PIR to it. That won't meet any standard either. That is why experienced installers review houses and make informed recommendations.

bk · 10-01-2018 2:00pm

Stoner wrote: »

No only do Smartthings sensors have no tampers they are installed on a cradle and simply snap off. I could walk off with them.

Given that the SmartThings sensor has an accelerometer built in, removing it in that way while the system is armed, would trigger the alarm.

I don't see that as being any different to a tamper circuit. I'm not getting your point with this?

And of course someone would have had to smash through the window, thus triggering the shock sensor to get to that.

I suppose you mean someone tampering with the sensors when the system is disarmed. Sure, I can see that being important in a commercial or retail setting, but I wouldn't see this at all being an issue with a typical home. The burglar would already have been invited in!

Stoner wrote: »

A sounder sitting on table is not the second standard as a SAB unit installed on a high wall.

SmartThings supports multiple Z-Wave sirens, both internal and external, battery and wired.

Stoner wrote: »

You might not like perimeter protection, but it is a very important element in a decent system. Again you might not like it but it's very useful, and specified in many systems where enhanced coverage is required, repositories, banks etc.

Of course, banks, etc. are a different story. I would hope they aren't looking for advice online. What we are talking about here is for home users.

I agree that shock sensors are a nice to have. But I'm not at all convinced they are necessary. They are potentially an extra cost, and their benefit needs to be weighed against possibly spending that money in other areas.

Stoner wrote: »

Again IOT systems are great but they do not perform to a minimum standard for many, many reasons, most of which you don't like or rate, but the fact is that there is a minimum standard. The iot kit you have (bar the circle cameras,I have what you have) your kit does not meet any standard that I've even known or worked to.

I don't think I've said anywhere that SmartThings/Xiaomi cover all the same things as a €500 to €1000 "real" system does. I've said a few times that I'm using them in addition to my HKC and Circle cameras.

Stoner wrote: »

Again the above is not an opinion. It's referencing standards and as you know engineering is all about standards.

As any engineer knows, standards can quickly become outdated and invalid, particularly in fast moving industries related to tech. Just because something was traditionally done in one way in the past, doesn't mean it will continue to be so.

After all a completely unconnected HKC system like mine meets all your standards, yet it is pretty useless if it goes off when you are out of your house!

A major problem I have with the opinion being expressed here is that you are basically saying that the only security system you can buy is one that costs in the region of €500 to €1000 and probably closer to the €1000 mark for a typical house.

But I think that is very dangerous talk. For a lot of people €500+ is a lot of money and it means they simply can't afford a security system at all. Over 50% of Irish homes have no security system.

Now I'm not saying that a €200 DIY system is as good as a professionally installed €500+ system. I'd hope not, otherwise what are you paying for? But to say it offers no security at all, is also bs. It can offer a lot of extra security compared to non at all, which again is what 50% of people have. And it would certainly be better then nothing.

Here is the thing, over the next few years, the market will be flooded by new DIY, connected and "smart" security systems. I think we need to be free to look at them, review them and consider their pros and cons versus other systems.

If installers want to come in and point out the deficiencies in a particular system. Then great, we all learn something about it, can discuss it and can then make up our own minds. That frankly is what boards is all about.

IMO the Home Security Forum is far too dominated by commercial interests and pushing people in a certain direction, which I don't think is at all in line with how most forums on boards operate. Professionals of course are very welcome to share their knowledge, but they shouldn't be allowed to just say shut up, we can't be questioned, the standards can't be questioned, etc. It simply leads to a hostile forum and a particular agenda being pushed.

And I would absolutely hate to see this forum go that same way!

We are all smart people and we can all make up our own minds.

Stopping the conversation here isn't going to stop people buying DIY/Smart security systems. There is a big appetite for such systems and people will just go to Amazon and buy one. But now they will do so less well informed, maybe just going on Amazon reviews, etc. At least here we can discuss it and folks like yourself and 2011 can point out the issues with them, so people can then choose.

That is what is great about boards, open and transparent conversation, experts sharing their knowledge and I'd hate to see that change!

Stoner · 10-01-2018 3:51pm

bk wrote:

I don't see that as being any different to a tamper circuit. I'm not getting your point with this?

A tamper circuit is independent to the alarm circuit and triggers an alarm regardless if the system is armed or not.

The external bell must have a tamper circuit as part of the lowest level of the standard.

Again it's fine to dismiss a standard as outdated , however that's different to saying something performs to a standard when it does not.

Again I'll stress that I think by the sounds of it you've had experience with a couple of poorly installed systems.

As an early adapter i agree that there are huge advantages for iot devices.

Agreed that boards is a discussion forum and opinions are shared.

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