Home Security Systems and Statistics

bk

Talking about stats, it is a pity that the CSO numbers don't breakdown the number of burglaries where a resident actually encounters the burglar and also the number that end up involving violence.

I suspect that these numbers would actually be much lower then most people believe from the media.

It would also be interesting to see the number of burglaries that occur where an alarm system is present.

I also would love to see a break down of burglaries per household income categories.

I've no proof of it, but I suspect that a disproportionate number of burglaries actually happen in working class areas where people can least afford expensive alarm systems and that middle class folks with expensive systems are actually less likely to be targeted anyway. I'm aware they can and do travel, but statistically.

Which is why I think their is real value in cheaper DIY systems. No of course they mightn't (and probably shouldn't) have all the features of the more expensive system, but at least they are something and might help those 50% of other people who currently don't have any system.

2011

@ bk:

1) Glad I have convinced you!

2) Typo in my earlier post. Four HKC sensors for you room would cost €50, not €50 each. You won’t get a Logitech Circle camera for that.

3) I agree that the chance of a violent encounter in most Irish homes is remote. But I am of the view that if installing an alarm install it properly. Having said this elderly people living in isolated areas can be understandably nervous.

4) if installing reed switches to determine that a door or window is open or not why not install an inertia shock sensor at the same time? A quality one will cost about €12 and the cable is there already! It’s a no brainer.


Apologies for the iPhone response (full of typos no doubt).

bk

2011 wrote: »

2) Typo in my earlier post. Four HKC sensors for you room would cost €50, not €50 each. You won’t get a Logitech Circle camera for that.

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.

2011 wrote: »

4) if installing reed switches to determine that a door or window is open or not why not install an inertia shock sensor at the same time? A quality one will cost about €12 and the cable is there already! It’s a no brainer.

Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Though I was thinking more generically then my particular circumstances, perhaps about a person building a system from scratch.

In fairness to HKC, I think they make an excellent, reliable basic system in terms of alerting you when you are home of an attempted break in.

However I'm not at all crazy about the direction they have gone in terms of IP connectivity and apps.

The thing that worries me about my old HKC 812 panel is not someone breaking in when I'm home, it doesn't scare me at all, I think it is a somewhat overblown fear. The real concern is the system going off when I'm away for the weekend, due to a false alarm and bothering my neighbours all weekend long. This has happened 2 or 3 times over the years and has led to unhappy neighbours.

If I'm not mistaken (and I maybe), the only option for the HKC 812 is a GSM module at €150, €8 per app and €60 per year for self monitoring! And then there is the whole 5 hour polling! Seems pretty poor value to me IMO.

Again if I'm not mistaken even if I was to upgrade to a 1070 with wifi card, you would still have the €60 securewave charge!

Think about this, my £50 SmartThings hub gives me free monitoring, almost instantaneous notifications and 5 minute offline polling!

So while HKC might have better shock sensor options, it is certainly much poorer in terms of IP connectivity. Pros and Cons of different systems and people with different needs.

I do know there are other panels out their with free apps and self monitoring and better polling and I'm hoping to get one of those sorted out in a few months as finances allow. But the whole thing seems a bit of a mess.

BTW did I mention that my HKC panel is in the hall, directly above the keypad :rolleyes:

stuartkee

I walk into your house through the front door flick the mains on the fuse board and tell me what happens to your system?

bk wrote: »

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.



Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Though I was thinking more generically then my particular circumstances, perhaps about a person building a system from scratch.

In fairness to HKC, I think they make an excellent, reliable basic system in terms of alerting you when you are home of an attempted break in.

However I'm not at all crazy about the direction they have gone in terms of IP connectivity and apps.

The thing that worries me about my old HKC 812 panel is not someone breaking in when I'm home, it doesn't scare me at all, I think it is a somewhat overblown fear. The real concern is the system going off when I'm away for the weekend, due to a false alarm and bothering my neighbours all weekend long. This has happened 2 or 3 times over the years and has led to unhappy neighbours.

If I'm not mistaken (and I maybe), the only option for the HKC 812 is a GSM module at €150, €8 per app and €60 per year for self monitoring! And then there is the whole 5 hour polling! Seems pretty poor value to me IMO.

Again if I'm not mistaken even if I was to upgrade to a 1070 with wifi card, you would still have the €60 securewave charge!

Think about this, my £50 SmartThings hub gives me free monitoring, almost instantaneous notifications and 5 minute offline polling!

So while HKC might have better shock sensor options, it is certainly much poorer in terms of IP connectivity. Pros and Cons of different systems and people with different needs.

I do know there are other panels out their with free apps and self monitoring and better polling and I'm hoping to get one of those sorted out in a few months as finances allow. But the whole thing seems a bit of a mess.

BTW did I mention that my HKC panel is in the hall, directly above the keypad :rolleyes:

2011

bk wrote: »

I assume that is wholesale and DIY? I see about 50 to 60 per shock typically quoted by installers which is what I was going off.

As this forum is all about DIY, yes (just like your cameras)

Installing a shock sensor or two is easy peasy.

Of course, at that price difference sure, in my particular circumstance. Though it was only wired for one sensor (only two of of the four pains are doors), I assume you could run wires off the one wire to the other two/three windows and have them all on the same zone?

Exactly.

I am only using HKC as an example of a good alarm system.
HKC systems are not perfect, no system is.


Ultimately how secure the premesis is will depend on a number of variables but mainly how it is installed, what types of components are used, how it is programmed as well as the manufacture of the system.

bk

stuartkee wrote: »

I walk into your house through the front door flick the mains on the fuse board and tell me what happens to your system?

Which element of my home security system?

HKC -

Panel will beep for a couple of seconds, then it will alarm. However I'd be non the wiser if I'm away as it isn't connected. Even if it was, since the panel is right next to the fuse box, it would be trivial for some one to disable the control panel before it could send out a warning.

Xiaomi -

I'd get an immediate notification (tested at one or two seconds) as you entered the front door and alarm siren would trigger. Their is no entry delay.
Pulling the fuse would have no immediate effect as I've the hub and my wifi router on a UPS, though they could finally take that out too, but I'd have gotten a few notifications by then.

SmartThings -

Same as the Xiaomi above, immediate trigger (tested, one or two seconds) and notification of alarm system as you came in the door as no entry delay. Note the hub has battery backup.

In addition I'd also get a notification 5 minutes after the system went offline.

Note, I don't have it yet, but you can get external battery operated sirens for smart things which would continue to alarm after the hub was taken out.

Logitech Circle -

Notification and video of the intruder coming in the front door (within about 30 seconds or less, tested). My circle 1 would continue to work after fuse tripped as it has a battery. The Circle 2 would go offline.

Notifcation 5 minutes after either cameras going offline.

BTW as an aside, I live in an apartment, so you would have to had gotten through the key carded doors to the building. Along the well light corridors with CCTV cameras and gotten through my fire rated timber door with a 5 lever mortise lock (could be improved) in a very heavily trafficked area of the building. Not impossible of course, just unlikely.

2011 wrote: »

As this forum is all about DIY, yes (just like your cameras)

Installing a shock sensor or two is easy peasy.

Cool, thanks, I really most start looking in to how to DIY this for myself. I'm always a little cautious about anything electrical as it isn't really my area of expertise.

Though I would mention that I do think their are different levels of DIY. I agree that while my elderly parents would struggle to setup the Circle cameras themselves, I'd say a lot of people could set it up easily in a few minutes. Certainly most younger people comfortable with using smartphones and apps would have no problems. Wiring in "professional" security systems is a bit more hardcore.

2011 wrote: »

Ultimately how secure the premesis is will depend on a number of variables but mainly how it is installed, what types of components are used, how it is programmed as well as the manufacture of the system.

Absolutely, I agree 100%, plus I'd add to that not to forget about physical security, good doors, good windows, good locks on them, using the locks, making your home looked lived in, knowing your neighbours and watching out for them, etc.

2011

bk wrote: »

HKC -

Panel will beep for a couple of seconds, then it will alarm. However I'd be non the wiser if I'm away as it isn't connected. Even if it was, since the panel is right next to the fuse box, it would be trivial for some one to disable the control panel before it could send out a warning.

The bit in bold is disappointing. In defence of the alarm installer I would guess that this is the point at which the electrician wired the alarm cables to.

BTW as an aside, I live in an apartment, so you would have to had gotten through the key carded doors to the building. Along the well light corridors with CCTV cameras and gotten through my fire rated timber door with a 5 lever mortise lock (could be improved) in a very heavily trafficked area of the building.

These are important security additions that are frequently underrated when in many cases this may be far more difficult to defeat than the HKC alarm system described above!! This is particularly the case if the door lock was upgraded.

bk

2011 wrote: »

The bit in bold is disappointing. In defence of the alarm installer I would guess that this is the point at which the electrician wired the alarm cables to.

Yes, though what is on the other side of this hall wall is the study/utility room. It would have been trivial to put it in there instead.

As an aside, the builders should also have put the fuse box and comms box in the study too, purely for aesthetic reasons. Three ugly boxes in the hall that could have been in the study instead. Sometimes I wonder if these "professionals" even think about what they are doing or just bang these up without thinking about it.

BTW with HKC systems like this, can the entry delay be set to be on just one or two sensors? So if the panel was in the study instead, entry delay on just the hall door sensor and hallway PIR, but not on the PIR in the study. So if someone entered the study during the entry time, the alarm would immediately trigger?

2011 wrote: »

These are important security additions that are frequently underrated when in many cases this may be far more difficult to defeat than the HKC alarm system described above!! This is particularly the case if the door lock was upgraded.

Yep, a second lock for the door is on my todo list. Any recommendations appreciated?

BTW I was just playing with the SmartThings Multi-Sensor, turns out it has a accelerometer built in (and a thermostat!). So it can detect shocks and vibrations. Banging on the window or door frame will trigger it.

I suspect ideally it should be attached directly to the glass for best results, rather then the frame and I'd need four for full coverage. But at least it is no worse then what I had with the HKC system.

bk

So today I did a walk test of my HKC system and I have to say the shock sensors don't seem to be working very well.

Slamming the windows as hard as I could without actually breaking them and nothing. I had to slam the frame, just under the sensor for the alarm to trigger. Doesn't seem very effective. The SmartThing sensors seem more sensitive.

BTW I always thought these doors and windows seem very strong and solid, much more solid then I've seen in other homes, but I took a closer look:

- Laminated safety/security glass, BS 6206 Class A. Turns out very hard to smash through.
- No external lock, so can't be bumped/picked from outside.
- Internally beaded from what I can tell.
- Door locks to the frame at 9 different points all around the frame.

I'm no expert on this, but all seems very solid and secure.

2011

bk wrote: »

So today I did a walk test of my HKC system and I have to say the shock sensors don't seem to be working very well.

If faulty they can be replaced for small money, and then once set up properly they will perform extremely well, trust me.

Slamming the windows as hard as I could without actually breaking them and nothing. I had to slam the frame, just under the sensor for the alarm to trigger.

What gross attack and pulse setting are they configured to? Sounds like the set point for GA is set too high as they are generally over sensitive when they need they need replacing.

Wossack

my thoughts of fleshing out my smartthings environment to cover more alarm functions evaporated when the app (used to arm/disarm) went awol - the cloud service went down, and the app was totally unresponsive, until it became available again. Thankfully I didnt have a battery backed siren wailing..

2011

Wossack wrote: »

my thoughts of fleshing out my smartthings environment to cover more alarm functions evaporated when the app (used to arm/disarm) went awol

This demonstrates that these devices can supplement a real intruder alarm system, but should not be used to replace one.

bk

2011 wrote: »

This demonstrates that these devices can supplement a real intruder alarm system, but should not be used to replace one.

Well it depends on what you mean by "these devices". Yes SmartThings is a cloud based device, so I wouldn't rely on it completely.

But there are plenty of DIY Smart Alarm systems in the US, which work completely offline and look to be just as good as any "real" intruder system.

I have to say every real intruder system I've looked at amongst family and friends has gaping security holes in them, so I wouldn't assume that just because you have a "real" system, it is any better in reality.

2011

bk wrote: »

Yes SmartThings is a cloud based device, so I wouldn't rely on it completely.

My point exactly.

But there are plenty of DIY Smart Alarm systems in the US, which work completely offline and look to be just as good as any "real" intruder system.

Easily obtainable in Ireland? Such as?

I have to say every real intruder system I've looked at amongst family and friends has gaping security holes in them, so I wouldn't assume that just because you have a "real" system, it is any better in reality.

Absolutely, but as discussed earlier this is generally because it was poorly installed, not because the system itself isn’t up to scratch.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Easily obtainable in Ireland? Such as?

There are already a bunch of DIY wireless security systems available in your local maplins or Amazon from the likes of Yale, Honeywell, etc.

Wireless systems, with app control/notifications and even 3G/4G as a backup channel, battery backup and external bells/sirens.

They aren't Smart/HA systems, but there are dozens in the US either out or coming in the next few months, from Nest, Go Abode, Blink, Ring, ADT, etc.

I've no doubt at least some of these will come to Ireland in the next year. After all, Nest, Blink and Ring all already sell security cams and other products in the UK/Ireland market.

BTW iSmart Alarm is available here from Amazon.

2011 wrote: »

Absolutely, but as discussed earlier this is generally because it was poorly installed, not because the system itself isn’t up to scratch.

And pretty much the same for every "real" system I've seen installed. There is no such thing as perfect security. All systems and even installs have their trade offs.

2011

bk wrote: »

There are already a bunch of DIY wireless security systems available in your local maplins or Amazon from the likes of Yale, Honeywell, etc.

Sorry but I just can’t take Yale alarm components seriously. Very poor quality IMHO. Honeywell make some great instrumentation, PLCs and controllers so I could imagine that they may make some good security components. Have you used any Honeywell alarm devices ?

There is no such thing as perfect security. All systems and even installs have their trade offs.

Yes but when devices fail to meet the most minimum standards of performance then they should not be used instead of a system that does meet these standards.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Sorry but I just can’t take Yale alarm components seriously. Very poor quality IMHO. Honeywell make some great instrumentation, PLCs and controllers so I could imagine that they may make some good security components. Have you used any Honeywell alarm devices ?

Afraid not, I only saw this option last week for the first time!

2011 wrote: »

Yes but when devices fail to meet the most minimum standards of performance then they should not be used instead of a system that does meet these standards.

Again, that depends on what you are talking about? SmartThings given it's cloud nature, then fair enough. But all those other DIY systems. Or even the ones that will come from the US in the next few months. I don't see how they fail to meet minimum standards of performance?

Every system of course has pros and cons and trade offs.

Afterall a HKC 812 with no comms is pretty useless too if you are out and it goes off. No one takes any notice of a ringing bell anymore.

BTW As an aside, the ADT SmartThings system seems very interesting. It seems to try and solve the reliability/cloud issues with SmartThings with "real" security hardware. Though pricey for a DIY system.

Stoner

bk wrote:

I don't see how they fail to meet minimum standards of performance?

BK I'm posting as a mod here.

I agree that the intruder alarm installers need to embrace IOT.
However due to your excellent engineering knowledge, you are an influential poster here and I'm concerned that some of the information given here might carry too much weight.

Some of the statements above can be misleading.

For example Smartthings are mentioned in the same post here as performing to a minimum standard.

Tampers are required on intruder alarm systems.
This is an independent tamper cct on the HKC system you have , it may be shored out as could your inertia contacts.
The xaoimi equipment is the same.

However on any intruder alarm I've had ( or specified or installed back in the day) would sound if sensors were tampered with.

This is part of a minimum standard.

No only do Smartthings sensors have no tampers they are installed on a cradle and simply snap off. I could walk off with them.

A sounder sitting on table is not the second standard as a SAB unit installed on a high wall.

Inerita sensors work very well, your's don't that's an issue with your system, I suggested you get it addressed.

You might not like perimeter protection, but it is a very important element in a decent system. Again you might not like it but it's very useful, and specified in many systems where enhanced coverage is required, repositories, banks etc.

Again IOT systems are great but they do not perform to a minimum standard for many, many reasons, most of which you don't like or rate, but the fact is that there is a minimum standard. The iot kit you have (bar the circle cameras,I have what you have) your kit does not meet any standard that I've even known or worked to.

Again you might not rate the gaps, they can be a useful system and can enhance a standard system, they have features that are beyond the basic standard, but they also fail to meet the minimum intrude alarm standard

Again the above is not an opinion. It's referencing standards and as you know engineering is all about standards.

I hope you take this in the correct light.

Finally on these standards, you can buy a Siemens ir HKC panel, install it and connect one PIR to it. That won't meet any standard either. That is why experienced installers review houses and make informed recommendations.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

No only do Smartthings sensors have no tampers they are installed on a cradle and simply snap off. I could walk off with them.

Given that the SmartThings sensor has an accelerometer built in, removing it in that way while the system is armed, would trigger the alarm.

I don't see that as being any different to a tamper circuit. I'm not getting your point with this?

And of course someone would have had to smash through the window, thus triggering the shock sensor to get to that.

I suppose you mean someone tampering with the sensors when the system is disarmed. Sure, I can see that being important in a commercial or retail setting, but I wouldn't see this at all being an issue with a typical home. The burglar would already have been invited in!

Stoner wrote: »

A sounder sitting on table is not the second standard as a SAB unit installed on a high wall.

SmartThings supports multiple Z-Wave sirens, both internal and external, battery and wired.

Stoner wrote: »

You might not like perimeter protection, but it is a very important element in a decent system. Again you might not like it but it's very useful, and specified in many systems where enhanced coverage is required, repositories, banks etc.

Of course, banks, etc. are a different story. I would hope they aren't looking for advice online. What we are talking about here is for home users.

I agree that shock sensors are a nice to have. But I'm not at all convinced they are necessary. They are potentially an extra cost, and their benefit needs to be weighed against possibly spending that money in other areas.

Stoner wrote: »

Again IOT systems are great but they do not perform to a minimum standard for many, many reasons, most of which you don't like or rate, but the fact is that there is a minimum standard. The iot kit you have (bar the circle cameras,I have what you have) your kit does not meet any standard that I've even known or worked to.

I don't think I've said anywhere that SmartThings/Xiaomi cover all the same things as a €500 to €1000 "real" system does. I've said a few times that I'm using them in addition to my HKC and Circle cameras.

Stoner wrote: »

Again the above is not an opinion. It's referencing standards and as you know engineering is all about standards.

As any engineer knows, standards can quickly become outdated and invalid, particularly in fast moving industries related to tech. Just because something was traditionally done in one way in the past, doesn't mean it will continue to be so.

After all a completely unconnected HKC system like mine meets all your standards, yet it is pretty useless if it goes off when you are out of your house!

A major problem I have with the opinion being expressed here is that you are basically saying that the only security system you can buy is one that costs in the region of €500 to €1000 and probably closer to the €1000 mark for a typical house.

But I think that is very dangerous talk. For a lot of people €500+ is a lot of money and it means they simply can't afford a security system at all. Over 50% of Irish homes have no security system.

Now I'm not saying that a €200 DIY system is as good as a professionally installed €500+ system. I'd hope not, otherwise what are you paying for? But to say it offers no security at all, is also bs. It can offer a lot of extra security compared to non at all, which again is what 50% of people have. And it would certainly be better then nothing.

Here is the thing, over the next few years, the market will be flooded by new DIY, connected and "smart" security systems. I think we need to be free to look at them, review them and consider their pros and cons versus other systems.

If installers want to come in and point out the deficiencies in a particular system. Then great, we all learn something about it, can discuss it and can then make up our own minds. That frankly is what boards is all about.

IMO the Home Security Forum is far too dominated by commercial interests and pushing people in a certain direction, which I don't think is at all in line with how most forums on boards operate. Professionals of course are very welcome to share their knowledge, but they shouldn't be allowed to just say shut up, we can't be questioned, the standards can't be questioned, etc. It simply leads to a hostile forum and a particular agenda being pushed.

And I would absolutely hate to see this forum go that same way!

We are all smart people and we can all make up our own minds.

Stopping the conversation here isn't going to stop people buying DIY/Smart security systems. There is a big appetite for such systems and people will just go to Amazon and buy one. But now they will do so less well informed, maybe just going on Amazon reviews, etc. At least here we can discuss it and folks like yourself and 2011 can point out the issues with them, so people can then choose.

That is what is great about boards, open and transparent conversation, experts sharing their knowledge and I'd hate to see that change!

Stoner

bk wrote:

I don't see that as being any different to a tamper circuit. I'm not getting your point with this?

A tamper circuit is independent to the alarm circuit and triggers an alarm regardless if the system is armed or not.

The external bell must have a tamper circuit as part of the lowest level of the standard.

Again it's fine to dismiss a standard as outdated , however that's different to saying something performs to a standard when it does not.

Again I'll stress that I think by the sounds of it you've had experience with a couple of poorly installed systems.

As an early adapter i agree that there are huge advantages for iot devices.

Agreed that boards is a discussion forum and opinions are shared.

bk

Hi Stoner, thanks, I just took a look at the standard, EN 50131.

It actually has 4 levels. Grade 1 being low risk domestic, to Grade 4 being high risk commercial.

Some interesting things. Wireless systems can only go up to Grade 2, can't be used for 3 or 4.

The tamper circuit you mention is not required for Grade 1, it only becomes partly required from Grade 2 up.

Shock sensors aren't required for Grade 1 or 2, only Grade 3 up. BTW from what I can tell it doesn't actually specify shock sensors, just detection of entry through a window. So audible glass break sensors, curtain sensors, maybe even IP cams covering the windows might match it.

So things like Tamper circuits and Shock sensors are certainly nice to have and offer a higher level of security (most likely at a higher cost) and they might have been common in traditional "real" alarm systems, but aren't necessarily part of the standard.

NOTE: Of course insurance companies might require a professional install and and Grade 2 or better in order to get a discount on your insurance, not that I recommend you select that anyway.

The point being, even within this standard, there are different levels, with higher levels offering higher security, but also likely higher costs.

It it up to each person to decide what level of security they want and need and what they are willing to pay for it.

2011

@BK:
With all due respect your position about not minding that an intruder can not set off your alarm until they are in your premesis is quite unusual. Your belief that inertia shock sensors are unreliable seems to be based only on your own direct experience with a minisule sample, namely your own home. I base my view that inertia shock sensors can provide extremely reliable perimeter protection based on feedback from many customers over an extensive time period in addition to discussions with several alarm installers that I know and trust. I have not been in the alarm installing business for many years therefore have no commercial adavantage to gain, so I have no reason to lie.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not appear to know what gross attack and pulse count settings have been applied to your own shock sensors yet you are dismissing them? It is possible that your sensors are not working because they are simply configured or connected incorrectly, yet you appear to allow this to convince yourself that all inertia shock sensors are unreliable.

Like it or not reliable and comprehensive perimeter protection can not be achieved with motion detectors and / or cameras for anyone that wants to be free to move around within their own home. Even if this was not the case it is simply not cost effective.

Having said the above I agree with you on most of your other points. I share your disappointment with the poor install standard of many alarm systems by so called professionals. I also agree with your pint that security is about a lot more than an alarm system.

I am all for DIY, home automation and gadgets but i think that we have a responsibility not to oversell the security that can be provided by many of these devices.

Stoner

bk wrote:

The tamper circuit you mention is not required for Grade 1, it only becomes partly required from Grade 2 up.

The tamper I mentioned was for the external bell the bell is outside your protected zone and requires a tamper in grade 1.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not appear to know what gross attack and pulse count settings have been applied to your own shock sensors yet you are dismissing them? It is possible that your sensors are not working because they are simply configured or connected incorrectly, yet you appear to allow this to convince yourself that all inertia shock sensors are unreliable.

Thanks, I did note you mentioning that and it is on my todo list to check. I tend to wait until the rest of the family is out of the house before doing this, noise frightening the little one, etc.

Though I will point out that the system was installed by a professional certified installer. So if it was misconfigured, then it was done by them. The same person who installed the panel directly above the keypad :rolleyes:

2011 wrote: »

Like it or not reliable and comprehensive perimeter protection can not be achieved with motion detectors and / or cameras for anyone that wants to be free to move around within their own home. Even if this was not the case it is simply not cost effective.

I agree that it is definitely a nice to have.

However I disagree that outdoor motion activated cameras can't push your perimeter even further out, to the boundaries of your land and not just your windows.

After all, shock sensors aren't going to protect your car in the drive way or the lawnmower left out the back.

Motion activated outdoor cameras, while no guarantee (not that any of this is), might well allow you catch someone in the act or even frighten them off (lights and voice transmission).

Also shock sensors won't protect you if some one knocks at your door, you open and they force their way in. Something like Ring can help with that and allow you to talk to a caller without answering the door.

There are lots of tools to help improve your security, shock sensors are just one of many. I just don't think they are the silver bullet that some people seem to make them out to be.

2011 wrote: »

I am all for DIY, home automation and gadgets but i think that we have a responsibility not to oversell the security that can be provided by many of these devices.

I don't think I am. I'm actually doing the opposite of what you normally see over on the Home Security form, where you see people being pushed into quite expensive installed systems with questionable installations.

There is absolutely no guarantees with any of this, including expensive installed systems.

Stoner wrote: »

The tamper I mentioned was for the external bell the bell is outside your protected zone and requires a tamper in grade 1.

I could be totally wrong, but the document I read seemed to suggest to tamper was completely optional in grade 1. Also I didn't see any mention that an external bell was required at grade 1.

Interestingly, my HKC system doesn't have an external bell. It has an internal bell/flasher facing into the apartment building hallway. Something I had to specifically request of the installer, despite grumbles from him that it wasn't necessary!

Strictly speaking I'm not sure we are allowed to have external bells per apartment building rules. Though I suspect you could just ignore that, one or two people seem to have. But most haven't.

Stoner

bk wrote:

Interestingly, my HKC system doesn't have an external bell. It has an internal bell/flasher facing into the apartment building hallway. Something I had to specifically request of the installer, despite grumbles from him that it wasn't necessary!

As discussed a HKC panel with a single PIR is also an intruder alarm that meets no standard.

The requirement for an external bell is a contentious issue on the HSS forum. Homewatch don't fit them at all. Where as risk assessments are carried out by most of the other suppliers to determine if one is required as a minimum, usually it is, but sometimes it's not practical like in apartment blocks, hard to get to areas. Often in apartment blocks the Design Engineers will add them for ground floor apartments only so other apartments will not even have a cable for one.

I've never designed or seen a domestic alarm sounder strobe fitted to an apartment that's fitted in the landlord area (if that's what you are saying) this would be a common area that you may have no permission to alter.

I've updated the bell box on my house a number of times, it is imo a good indicator that there is a modern alarm installed.

Not the same effect on a fifth floor apartment though.

I've a very interesting set of events that occurred on my own alarm recently that will cause all sorts of debate.

I'm almost reluctant to post it as I haven't the energy fir the debate !

wexfordman2

Bk,

How can outdoor security cams operate as perimeter security, ie, how can they differentiate between a visitor /caller/postman/oilman etc as opposed to a burgler kicking your window ?

Mad Benny

Stoner wrote: »

I've a very interesting set of events that occurred on my own alarm recently that will cause all sorts of debate.

I'm almost reluctant to post it as I haven't the energy fir the debate !

Do tell :-)

2011

bk wrote: »

Thanks, I did note you mentioning that and it is on my todo list to check. I tend to wait until the rest of the family is out of the house before doing this, noise frightening the little one, etc.

When in engineering mode the bell can be disconnected, so no noise. You should do this and resolve the issue before deciding that all inertia shock sensors are unreliable.

Though I will point out that the system was installed by a professional certified installer.

I assume that your point is that many professional installs are pretty poor, sadly I agree.

However I disagree that outdoor motion activated cameras can't push your perimeter even further out, to the boundaries of your land and not just your windows.

This is not a reason not to install inertia shock sensors, besides it would be prone to multiple false alarms.

I agree that it is definitely a nice to have.

This is one of the few points that I disagree with you on.
I would consider perimeter protection of all venerable potential points of entry as a "must have".

After all, shock sensors aren't going to protect your car in the drive way or the lawnmower left out the back.

This might be true but is not a valid reason not to install inertia shock sensors.

Besides I often wondered if a wireless inertia shock sensor would work? It would certainly activate if anyone pushed against the car, slammed the car door, sat in the car etc...

Motion activated outdoor cameras, while no guarantee (not that any of this is), might well allow you catch someone in the act or even frighten them off (lights and voice transmission).

I disagree with the part in bold. Properly installed inertia shock sensors are pretty much guaranteed to detect any attempt to break / force a window or door.

Also shock sensors won't protect you if some one knocks at your door, you open and they force their way in.

Again this is not a reason not to install inertia shock sensors.

Something like Ring can help with that and allow you to talk to a caller without answering the door.

Yes a great device, but not a replacement for inertia shock sensors.

There are lots of tools to help improve your security, shock sensors are just one of many.

Agreed, but because of their cost and reliability (so essentially bang for buck) an alarm is severely lacking if it doesn't include them.

I just don't think they are the silver bullet that some people seem to make them out to be.

There is no silver bullet, but there is such thing as a bare minimum for an alarm to be considered worthwhile.

I don't think I am.

I think that due to your limited experience and almost unique position of not minding intruders entering your home once the alarm sounds you do not appreciate the importance of reliable perimeter protection.

I think that you need to accept that an alarm that only triggers when an intruder is actually inside a property is not acceptable to the vast majority of people.
Anything part of a security system that activates this late although can be useful should only be supplementary in my view.

I'm actually doing the opposite of what you normally see over on the Home Security form, where you see people being pushed into quite expensive installed systems with questionable installations.

I agree that alarm installers abuse use this forum to obtain work. I also agree that generating as much revenue as possible is more important to many of these alarm installers than an appropriate level security to a premises as result some may be tempted to over spec systems. I also believe that some installers take short cuts that compromise security to save time thereby maximizing profit. However it does not necessarily follow that proper perimeter protection is not an essential part of almost every domestic alarm system.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

As discussed a HKC panel with a single PIR is also an intruder alarm that meets no standard.

Strictly speaking, as far as I can tell from the spec, it would meet Grade 1.

Though I would agree that, that is a very low bar. As far as I can tell Grade 1 has extremely low requirements. No shocks required, only one sounder (internal) will do, one, maybe two PIRs, etc.

Stoner wrote: »

The requirement for an external bell is a contentious issue on the HSS forum. Homewatch don't fit them at all. Where as risk assessments are carried out by most of the other suppliers to determine if one is required as a minimum, usually it is, but sometimes it's not practical like in apartment blocks, hard to get to areas.

I agree completely. I'd much prefer to have one and I shouldn't have left the installer get away without installing one in the first place.

I think it is simply shocking that Homewatch get away without an external bell for the price they are charging. No excuse at all, very poor IMO.

Stoner wrote: »

Often in apartment blocks the Design Engineers will add them for ground floor apartments only so other apartments will not even have a cable for one.

Unfortunately, not in my ground floor apartment. No wire for an external bell. So would have to be wireless. Also you then have the issue that it would be easily reachable.

Stoner wrote: »

I've never designed or seen a domestic alarm sounder strobe fitted to an apartment that's fitted in the landlord area (if that's what you are saying) this would be a common area that you may have no permission to alter.

Yes, in the main building hallway. Nearly all the apartments in my building that look like they have an alarm system seem to have done this. It wasn't pre-wired for this, but looked pretty easy for the installers to do.

Though they are the small internal type sirens, rather then the big box external style, so less imposing.

You are right that it is likely against the rules, though I've never heard any complaints about it and I'm involved with the management company (company, not agents).

The hallway is a bit unusual, big, very wide and open and there is a lot of other gear in the hall. Fire extinguishers, panels to access pipes, etc. So they don't really impact any aesthetics. The hallway is more of an outdoor inside type thing.

Stoner wrote: »

I've updated the bell box on my house a number of times, it is imo a good indicator that there is a modern alarm installed.

Excellent point

Stoner wrote: »

I've a very interesting set of events that occurred on my own alarm recently that will cause all sorts of debate.

I'm almost reluctant to post it as I haven't the energy fir the debate !

Ah, go on, it sounds like fun

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Bk,

How can outdoor security cams operate as perimeter security, ie, how can they differentiate between a visitor /caller/postman/oilman etc as opposed to a burgler kicking your window ?

I've seen security systems in the US, which have external weather proof PIR's, that trigger lights, send notifications and video and most interestingly cause your keypads to beep, but not alarm. They can also be set to alarm if motion detected during certain hours (e.g. night time).

It makes a lot of sense for US properties which tend to have a lot of land around them. After all, why would any of the above be coming onto your property after midnight.

Even during the day, the panel beeping (think of it like the doorbell ringing), could have you reaching to check the camera and if it is an intruder, then you can activate your alarm system and call the Gardai.

I also think that the simple presence of an obvious motion activated light/camera can have most potential burglars moving along and trying elsewhere. If CCTV doesn't frighten them off, I'm not sure if a ringing alarm bell is going to stop them either.

BTW interestingly, shock sensors seem to be way less common in the US. External PIRs, curtain PIR's, acoustic glass break sensors seem to be more common.

2011 wrote: »

When in engineering mode the bell can be disconnected, so no noise. You should do this and resolve the issue before deciding that all inertia shock sensors are unreliable.

I know, thanks more about not having the little one under my feet when doing it

Anyway I got a chance to look yesterday. It is set to Gross 4 Pulse 4. Any recommendations?

2011 wrote: »

I think that due to your limited experience and almost unique position of not minding intruders entering your home once the alarm sounds you do not appreciate the importance of reliable perimeter protection.

Actually I was thinking about this some more. I realised that I haven't armed my security system in home mode in years! I did it for a few months when I first got the system installed, but stopped doing it not long after.

And thinking about I know that non of my family do either and as far as I can tell of all my friends, non of them do either.

In fact amongst my family only 50% of them even arm it at night! Mostly just using it when out of the house.

Now I've no stats on it and I know it is purely anecdotal, but I do wonder if many people are in fact like me and aren't all that bothered by daytime protection.

I'm well aware that this is bad security practice. But that is where security theory, meets real world practise and the trade off between convenience and security comes in. You know, what with kids coming and going, windows being opened and closed, it can just become a bit of annoying and you stop bothering.

BTW that is one feature on the Nest security system that I really like the look of, that the door/window sensors have a button allowing you to temporarily disable that zone so you can open the door/window without disarming the whole system. A very interesting idea.

2011 wrote: »

I think that you need to accept that an alarm that only triggers when an intruder is actually inside a property is not acceptable to the vast majority of people.
Anything part of a security system that activates this late although can be useful should only be supplementary in my view.

I want to pull back for a moment, I think perhaps you guys are misunderstanding me and that I'm not explaining myself very well.

I absolutely agree that shock sensors and external sirens can and do enhance your homes security. Don't think for a moment that I'm defending the likes of phonewatch! If you are charging as much as they are, then the system should absolutely have shock sensors and external sirens.

I also think that any system that costs over €500 should have free self-monitoring and app control out of the box. I think HKC have gone down the wrong path here.

If a €50 smartthings hub can have free app control, almost instantaneous notifications and 5 minute polling, then their is no excuse for any €500 to €1000 system to not have the same too.

Again, I absolutely agree that things like shocks sensors, bell boxes, IP cameras, etc. can enhance your security. But they can also quickly ramp up the cost of a system.

My concern is the 50% of homes that have no security. Why don't they? Perhaps it is because many people can't afford €500 to €1000 systems?

I think there is value in the €200 DIY systems. No, many of those systems don't have shock sensors and thus they aren't as good as €500+ system, of course not. But I would completely disagree that a system with just PIRs/magnets, doesn't offer any security at all! I think it is a big step up from having nothing at all.

And that is the important point I'm trying to get at, for most of these 50% of people, it isn't a choice between a €200 system or a €500-1000 system, it is a choice between a €200 system or non at all. And I think we need to be careful in completely discounting cheaper DIY systems as it can mean people end up having nothing.

BTW my ideal DIY system, is one that might get you up and going for €200, but which you can later add more features to later, shock sensors, curtain PIRs, external sirens, etc. It allows people to improve their security over time as finances allow. Which I think is important for those 50% of people.

BBTW 2011, you mentioned you didn't like Yale systems, any particular reasons why?

I was looking at the manual of their new "smart" system and I was actually quiet impressed just based on the specs. It doesn't have quiet everything I'd like to see in a DIY system, but it ticks an awful lot of the boxes and specswise comes close.

868Mhz, RF jamming detection, nice looking external bell boxes with tamper detection, keypads separate from the hub and you can add more keypads for just €25, looks pretty nice at a glance, but I've no experience of them.

I also read the manual of the Honeywell system. I don't know about the quality of it, but it has no comms channel at all! So I think a non runner.

BTW I hope non of you guys take any offence at this conversation. I think we agree on 95% of these issues. It is fun to think about and debate those other 5%

2011

bk wrote: »

I think it is simply shocking that Homewatch get away without an external bell for the price they are charging.

I think you mean PhoneWatch ?

Unfortunately, not in my ground floor apartment. No wire for an external bell. So would have to be wireless. Also you then have the issue that it would be easily reachable.

Wireless is an option (albeit not the preferred one). Interfering with a bellbox would trigger the alarm which (all going well) will communicate this to the home owner and / or central station.

I've seen security systems in the US, which have external weather proof PIR's, that trigger lights, send notifications and video and most interestingly cause your keypads to beep, but not alarm. They can also be set to alarm if motion detected during certain hours (e.g. night time).

In Ireland some garage forecourts (for example) use point to point detection devices. Essentially a transmitter sends a beam to a receiver unit which could be 30m away. Anyone passing though this will break the beam which could be used to generate a notification and / or trigger an alarm. This is also used on some expensive homes on with large gardens and private entrances in Foxrock. These are carefully set at a height and positioned to minimize the risk of false alarms.

I also think that the simple presence of an obvious motion activated light/camera can have most potential burglars moving along and trying elsewhere. If CCTV doesn't frighten them off, I'm not sure if a ringing alarm bell is going to stop them either.

Absolutely, but due to the nature of this type of protection it is not suitable as a replacement for inertia shock sensors. It will enhance security but is more susceptible to false alarms and for a really good set up is costly in comparison.

I know, thanks more about not having the little one under my feet when doing it

It is set to Gross 4 Pulse 4. Any recommendations?

Depends on the window size and how solid it is. Your sensors most likely need replacement (I'm assuming they are connected properly) if they won't activate with GA that low.

Now I've no stats on it and I know it is purely anecdotal, but I do wonder if many people are in fact like me and aren't all that bothered by daytime protection.

I think you are correct, many don't bother. But that is beside the point. When in Greece I noticed that many divers don't wear seat belts, that dosen't mean that it is a good idea

I absolutely agree that shock sensors and external sirens can and do enhance your homes security. Don't think for a moment that I'm defending the likes of phonewatch! If you are charging as much as they are, then the system should absolutely have shock sensors and external sirens.

Forget about charges for a moment. This is a DIY forum and we are all legally permitted to install intruder alarms in our own homes. High quality inertia shock sensors can be purchased for a little over €10 each. Any descent alarm system should use these to protect all vulnerable potential points of entry. This point of view is accepted almost universally even I suspect privately by companies such as PhoneWatch.

I also think that any system that costs over €500 should have free self-monitoring and app control out of the box. I think HKC have gone down the wrong path here.

I am not trying to push HKC, I am just using it as an example. There are other options with free apps.

Again, I absolutely agree that things like shocks sensors, bell boxes, IP cameras, etc. can enhance your security. But they can also quickly ramp up the cost of a system.

For certified high quality kit: The bellbox costs less than €50 and shock sensors are a bit over €10 each. Not that costly really to purchase.

My concern is the 50% of homes that have no security. Why don't they? Perhaps it is because many people can't afford €500 to €1000 systems?

There are many reasons. Sure a cheap DIY bit of kit from the internet is much better than nothing, just be aware of it's limitations. Don't think it is the equivalent of a "real" alarm system, it's not.

BTW I hope non of you guys take any offence at this conversation.

I'm deeply offended. You will have to make it up to me by buying me beer ....

I think we agree on 95% of these issues.

Yes