Farmer brought a digger onto my land

foxy farmer · 29-12-2017 12:02am

beveragelady wrote: »

No, different pifftaker. I remember that thread too, it had a grim familiarity about it back then.

My chap has featured in a couple of threads here alright, but that wasn't him.

Co Kerry by any chance?

beveragelady · 29-12-2017 12:05am

foxy farmer wrote: »

Co Kerry by any chance?

Interesting conjecture. As it happens we're not in Kerry, but I can see why you might think that we are.

mickdw · 29-12-2017 12:12am

beveragelady wrote: »

Interesting conjecture. As it happens we're not in Kerry, but I can see why you might think that we are.

Squatters is 20 years now. 12 years is long gone.

Is your right of way officially registered?
If so, you are fine imo.

John_Rambo · 29-12-2017 12:18am

_Brian wrote: »

We’re farmers here.
Nothing gives this man a right to being a digger into another persons property without permission.

What he did was wrong no matter what his intentions were.

Nice to see what I think and genuinely hope 99% of farmers attitude would be to this situation.

alan partridge aha · 29-12-2017 12:58am

mickdw wrote: »

Squatters is 20 years now. 12 years is long gone.

Is your right of way officially registered?
If so, you are fine imo.

How long ago did this change?

John_Rambo · 29-12-2017 1:23am

Mod; Reply to fepper's irrelevant post deleted

Mod note

febber and John Rambo: pls stay on thread topic

A separate thread may be opened re sporting rights

nuac · 29-12-2017 2:11am

Mod
Have let this thread run to encourage discussion.

Please note that apart from recommendations to get immediate legal advice neither Boards.ie nor any LD mods accept any responsibility for any other advice or suggestions given or made here

NUTLEY BOY · 29-12-2017 1:38pm

Just a few random thoughts.

IMHO the facts, as posted, suggest that there are both civil and criminal dimensions involved.

+1 the expected Garda first response that this is a civil matter. I would insist with Gardaí that both dimensions apply and that they are being requested to deal with the criminal aspect only. For starters, the uprooting of trees on OP's land appears to constitute prima facie evidence of criminal damage.

OP points to a difficulty that the lost or damaged trees are almost out of sight under debris. Hopefully, OP can produce receipts for purchase of the trees that she planted herself. This should provide corroborative evidence of their existence and the quantum involved.

I see reference to land registry data. I just wonder if OP had lands mapped in recent years by a surveyor with OS reference points included. This would help with the usual contentious issue of who owns what. I appreciate that maps are not definitive evidentiary proof of ownership or of boundaries but they go a long way to helping resolve the issue especially if the other party is a total chancer who relies primarily on the law of bluff and bluster.

In relation to rights of way I would be looking at my title documents to see if anything was ever reduced to writing by way of a formal agreement about it. Even more interestingly I would like to know if Miley Mucksavage next door has any such similar documentation to offer in support of his contention. That said, he does not need formal agreement in writing if he is asserting adverse possession. What he does need however is evidence to stand up that proposition.

Finally, I would suggest to OP that the advice of her solicitor would be most definitely required as there are legally contentious issues to be resolved such as indemnity for the lost/damaged trees, the relief of the burden of deposited debris, future repeat issues and so on. At this stage I would have utterly no conversation whatsoever with Miley Mucksavage - that way there will be no mistake as to who said what.:rolleyes:

Robbo · 30-12-2017 4:01am

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Hope you are right because farmers usually know the law when it comes to land entitlements.

The amount of petty disputes that come before the courts would work against this. In spite of noble campaigns by the IFA and similiar.

mickdw wrote: »

Squatters is 20 years now. 12 years is long gone.

Is your right of way officially registered?
If so, you are fine imo.

Everything you've said there is problematic. Please do not post here further until you gain a clue.

OP, you have a multi-faceted problem which may require trips to the Gardai and your solicitor.

Carawaystick · 31-12-2017 12:14am

If the gards are unwilling, also report the tree felling without a license, contrary to the forestry act 2014.
the faq is here to see if the felling is possible without a license, but sher the gards would need to turn up to measure the volume as evidence anyway.
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/treefelling/FAQTreeFelling090617.pdf

ganmo · 01-01-2018 3:02pm

Another thing to consider is contacting your local district veterinary office(DVO) with the land folio number to make sure that he isn't claiming payments on that field.

beveragelady · 01-01-2018 3:11pm

Thanks everybody for help and input. I got onto the guards but the chap who deals with my isolated neck of the woods is on holidays for a few more days so I've put my rantin' and ravin' on hold until I get to talk to him.

Ganmo, that's very useful info. I'm not a farmer and this is exactly the sort of thing I need to be told. Will they give me any info over the phone, do you think? I have the folio number, I could just ask them if anybody is claiming payments, they wouldn't have to tell me who or how much. My prediction is that it would transpire that no payments are being claimed, because this mucksavage KNOWS it's not his field.

I know nothing whatsoever about farm payments. Are there any in particular I should namedrop? The land is in a special protection area, if that matters.

ganmo · 01-01-2018 3:45pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks everybody for help and input. I got onto the guards but the chap who deals with my isolated neck of the woods is on holidays for a few more days so I've put my rantin' and ravin' on hold until I get to talk to him.

Ganmo, that's very useful info. I'm not a farmer and this is exactly the sort of thing I need to be told. Will they give me any info over the phone, do you think? I have the folio number, I could just ask them if anybody is claiming payments, they wouldn't have to tell me who or how much. My prediction is that it would transpire that no payments are being claimed, because this mucksavage KNOWS it's not his field.

I know nothing whatsoever about farm payments. Are there any in particular I should namedrop? The land is in a special protection area, if that matters.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/contact/bpslo-callnumbers/

they should have no issue talking to you as it your land and you don't have it rented to anyone. what will happen if he is claiming your ground is they'll send him a letter asking for proof of ownership/rent agreement.
you might be able to submit a bps application and make a few bob too but thats a whole different kettle of fish

beveragelady · 01-01-2018 4:17pm

ganmo wrote: »

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/contact/bpslo-callnumbers/

they should have no issue talking to you as it your land and you don't have it rented to anyone. what will happen if he is claiming your ground is they'll send him a letter asking for proof of ownership/rent agreement.
you might be able to submit a bps application and make a few bob too but thats a whole different kettle of fish

Thanks. This is very useful stuff. I'll contact the DVO tomorrow if they're open and let you know how I get on. BPS is out of the question I'm afraid, because I'm not a farmer, I've no crops, no herd number and no livestock apart from cats, dogs and bees.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 11:56am

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Fred Swanson · 02-01-2018 12:08pm

This post has been deleted.

evolving_doors · 02-01-2018 12:13pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Make an anonymous complaint to revenue. Tell them you suspect someone is making a false claim as you heard them claiming they owned a field when you know they don't. Dunno if it's revenues remit but it'd cost ya nothing.

Fred Swanson · 02-01-2018 12:16pm

This post has been deleted.

Lady Haywire · 02-01-2018 12:32pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

When we get maps sent out from the Dept, it's just shots of Google Earth with land parcel numbers marked next to them. I'd say that's closest to what they mean by maps.
Try this site to get your folio number- https://www.landdirect.ie/pramap.aspx/
Zoom in to your piece of land and when it's fully zoomed in, you can click on the parcel and on the right hand side the number, acerage etc will pop up for you like so
PLdECRsh.png?1

Then see on the right hand side it says 'Highlight all areas'. If you click that it will show pieces of land in the same name or plot area or something, Im not sure to be exact but see in img below, three small pieces of land have also been highlighted. It's def same owner anyway as it's our land! (three small pieces are bogland for turf)

C6YnN2Oh.png?1

And the yellow strips......right of ways! Which show up as a 'burden' on the right hand side.

5NF3Hgwh.png?1

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 12:37pm

I have the folio number. As I said above I've been told they don't want that or the plan number, they want a plot number and only farmers have plot numbers.
Actually, could anybody here confirm that folio/plan numbers are not the same as the plot numbers the Dept of Ag deals with?

Atlantic Dawn · 02-01-2018 12:37pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Rather crazy attitude they have, I thought they took food security seriously, someone could be putting animals on land contaminated with all sorts and that then gets in to the food chain, so much for all the effort they put in to controlling foot and mouth.

_Brian · 02-01-2018 12:42pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Rather crazy attitude they have, I thought they took food security seriously, someone could be putting animals on land contaminated with all sorts and that then gets in to the food chain, so much for all the effort they put in to controlling foot and mouth.

There’s odd lads that have chanced their arm and claimed payments on empty plots of land. It doesn’t mean the cattle are on them though.
It’s small scale messing about, the odd half acre here and there.

If OP wants to do something they should talk to the guards about trespass and damage done. I’d say though you’ll have to push it hard as they won’t be too keen on getting involved in a neighbor dispute.

UrbanFox · 02-01-2018 1:11pm

Could this be a tendentious exercise in land grabbing ? Specifically, is the neighbour literally moving the boundary in his interpretation of the hedges and ditches rule ?

In relation to trespass, I would be curious to know how frequently the drain clearing exercise takes place. If this is a frequent operation could he argue implied consent to commit what would otherwise constitute an act of trespass.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 1:34pm

UrbanFox wrote: »

Could this be a tendentious exercise in land grabbing ? Specifically, is the neighbour literally moving the boundary in his interpretation of the hedges and ditches rule ?

In relation to trespass, I would be curious to know how frequently the drain clearing exercise takes place. If this is a frequent operation could he argue implied consent to commit what would otherwise constitute an act of trespass.

The drain is accessible more easily from his side. This was a bullying tactic and an act of aggression, though it's possible he has notions of making a claim for adverse possession at some point in the future.

brian_t · 02-01-2018 1:35pm

beveragelady wrote: »

I have the folio number. As I said above I've been told they don't want that or the plan number, they want a plot number and only farmers have plot numbers.
Actually, could anybody here confirm that folio/plan numbers are not the same as the plot numbers the Dept of Ag deals with?

Your neighbour messed up your field when he cleaned the ditch because he didn't want to mess up his own field.

This doesn't imply that he is claiming Area aid money on your field.

He may be but all this talk about grants and the Dept of Agriculture is a red herring that doesn't address your main problem of his criminal tresspass.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 1:40pm

brian_t wrote: »

Your neighbour messed up your field when he cleaned the ditch because he didn't want to mess up his own field.

This doesn't imply that he is claiming Area aid money on your field.

He may be but all this talk about grants and the Dept of Agriculture is a red herring that doesn't address your main problem of his criminal tresspass.

I'm aware the two things aren't directly related, but they're all aspects of the same mess. Dealing with the possibility of payment claims doesn't preclude me from tackling the issues of trespass and damage.
I'm grateful for the suggestion that the farm payments might be an avenue to pursue. In fact, I'm hoping that I discover that he hasn't made any claims because that would scupper his game of pretending to think he owns the field. Bear in mind, I'm 100% certain that he's fully aware it's not his field, he's pretending to think it is so I'll give up and hand it over. Destroying trees and trespassing and dumping the debris from the drain is part of his heavy-handed approach.

brian_t · 02-01-2018 2:00pm

I don't know why posters think the Dept of Ag will get involved in land ownership disputes and farm grants have nothing to do with the Revenue.

What size is your field ?

You can apply for a forestry grant even if you are not a farmer.

I think the minimum plot size is one ha (see page 30)

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/forestry/grants/AfforestationSchemeEd2190315.pdf

fepper · 02-01-2018 2:05pm

The dept of ag will only get involved if multiple claims from farmers on the same area of land,if it's only one claim on that land from a farmer, thats acceptable to dept

Limestone Cowboy · 02-01-2018 6:03pm

An agricultural advisor/consultant will be able to get the lpis (land parcel identification system) number for you if you can show them the plot on the map.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 6:41pm

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

An agricultural advisor/consultant will be able to get the lpis (land parcel identification system) number for you if you can show them the plot on the map.

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

Limestone Cowboy · 02-01-2018 6:44pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

Ya the lpis number is what the department of agriculture use for reference.

brian_t · 02-01-2018 7:02pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

There are strict penalties for claiming aid money that you are not entitled to and farmers are aware of this.

There is nothing in what your neighbour has done that suggests that he is claiming money on your field.

I think some posters here are sending you on a wild goose chase.

Concentrate on sorting out the criminal damage that your neighbour did.

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser.

The poster that advised you to contact the DVO was wasting your time.

evolving_doors · 02-01-2018 7:34pm

Well if the alleged offending farmer is claiming then hes goosed.
If he's not claiming then the op could ask him why he isn't if he thinks the land is his!
Besides... the op has a bit of time and interest and is learning stuff. Maybe not relevant right now but still good to know imo.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 7:38pm

brian_t wrote: »

There are strict penalties for claiming aid money that you are not entitled to and farmers are aware of this.

There is nothing in what your neighbour has done that suggests that he is claiming money on your field.

I think some posters here are sending you on a wild goose chase.

Concentrate on sorting out the criminal damage that your neighbour did.

The poster that advised you to contact the DVO was wasting your time.

Again, I'm grateful for the heads-up about farm payments and the suggestion to contact the DVO. It has nothing to do with the trespassing or the damage to trees but it is definitely relevant to the farmer's thickheaded insistence that it's his field.

I have asked a couple of questions about farm payments in the farming forum and I'm satisfied with the answers. Just to clarify, I'm fairly certain that he won't have made any claims, and this will scupper his argument that he thought it was his field all along. If it turns out that the big eejit has been claiming payments using my field as extra acreage then I will lose no sleep if he's hauled over the coals by the relevant authorities.

Just because the focus of the thread has moved to the issue of farm payments doesn't mean I'm no longer bothering about the damage to my trees. I may not be on familiar ground here but I'm capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time.

Again, thanks to everybody who offered proper advice and was so patient with my stupid questions.

beveragelady · 02-01-2018 7:42pm

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Ya the lpis number is what the department of agriculture use for reference.

Thanks. This is the sort of thing I need to be told. I'll see if I can do something about that tomorrow. Is there any way to find the lpis myself, or do I definitely need to ask a consultant?

brian_t · 02-01-2018 9:38pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Just to clarify, I'm fairly certain that he won't have made any claims, and this will scupper his argument that he thought it was his field all along.

If he is argueing that he thought field was his all along - then whether or not he claimed subsidies on the field will be irrelevant.

You are not supposed to claim subsidies on land that you own but are not utilising.

brian_t · 02-01-2018 10:00pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks. This is the sort of thing I need to be told. I'll see if I can do something about that tomorrow. Is there any way to find the lpis myself, or do I definitely need to ask a consultant?

Just to point out that if nobody has ever claimed subsidies on that field then I don't think it will have a Land Parcel Identification System (LIPS) number.

fepper · 02-01-2018 10:24pm

brian_t wrote: »

Just to point out that if nobody has ever claimed subsidies on that field then I don't think it will have a Land Parcel Identification System (LIPS) number.

Its no harm to find out its status anyway

beveragelady · 06-10-2019 4:53pm

I have just found out for certain that farm payments have been made to the farmer that were calculated to include my field.
Obviously I can't allow this to continue. Since this thread was started I have done a couple of small things to that field (I moved a beehive down there and registered it with the dept of Ag and I have done a tiny bit of fencing). Fences are damaged on an ongoing basis so I've stopped trying to keep his livestock out of it.
My current plan is as follows:
I'm going to have a chat with a member of my neighbour's family who has begun to take over the running of their farm. I'm going to suggest that they lease that field from me for a nominal sum (I was thinking maybe a tenner a year), with a number of conditions.* That would allow things to continue exactly as they are. There would be no need for the dept of ag to know they were receiving payments they weren't entitled to and there would be no further pointless discussion as to ownership. Everything would be done via solicitors to eliminate all possible confusion.

Anybody see any pitfalls here?

(I have established 100% that I own the field. There is on point offering suggestions about that aspect of this problem. However my concern in the long term is that they might attempt adverse possession based on a claim that they have farmed this land etc. I really just need them to accept that I'm not going to be intimidated into giving up.)

*Proposed conditions:
The lease is on a yearly basis, my beehive remains where it is, I have continued access to the hive and the field, no heavy machinery is to be brought into the field and no alterations made to drainage, hedges etc without consultation.

the_pen_turner · 06-10-2019 4:59pm

your too soft.
turf them out

beveragelady · 06-10-2019 5:03pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

your too soft.
turf them out

I see exactly what you mean, but I have no immediate need to do anything with that field and so I can afford to be reasonable.
I'm not going anywhere and they're not going anywhere. It's worth being accommodating and pleasant if we have to pass each other on the road a few times a day.
Also I'm hoping they'll pick up on the gently implied threat that if they don't do things my way I'll have no choice but to go back to the dept with my information.

the_pen_turner · 06-10-2019 5:08pm

send them a lease. either they sign up to a proper least at proper rates or get out

elperello · 06-10-2019 6:53pm

I had to go back and read the thread.

Sorry to hear that after nearly two years you have not sorted this out.

You are dealing with a blackguard.
Get a fencing contractor in and fence your land properly.
Put a lock on your gate.
Have no truck with this man or any of his family.

Be prepared to go to law to protect your property.

KOR101 · 06-10-2019 7:38pm

I'm curious whether you got to talk to the Gardaí. Also, did you talk to a solicitor.

I get the sense that rather than confrontation you would prefer smart moves. It's certainly true that some people feed on conflict and if your neighbour is like that, then smart short-circuiting might be a better approach.

JJayoo · 06-10-2019 8:01pm

Have you tried punching a hole through the back of his head?

Mod
Such advice not condoned here. Pls stay off this thread

beveragelady · 06-10-2019 8:02pm

KOR101 wrote: »

I'm curious whether you got to talk to the Gardaí. Also, did you talk to a solicitor.

I get the sense that rather than confrontation you would prefer smart moves. It's certainly true that some people feed on conflict and if your neighbour is like that, then smart short-circuiting might be a better approach.

I talked to a guard who said he would have the traditional 'quiet chat' with my neighbour. I have no way of knowing if this happened, but things went quiet for a while so I like to think he got a talking-to.

I have no interest in getting into any shouting matches with this ape. If I lease him the land for a very low price he can tell himself that he has got a bargain and that he has put one over on me. I'll get the lease signed, proving for once and for all that he acknowledges that I own the field, and that's all I want. I plan on donating the proceeds annually to the ISPCA anyway. When I tell him I've done that his ulcer will explode.

beveragelady · 06-10-2019 8:05pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Have you tried punching a hole through the back of his head?

Ah now. He's a simple farmer, just trying to make an honest living on the land.

Ken. · 06-10-2019 8:24pm

I'd be really petty about something like this. Find another farmer who the first guy hates and rent/sell the land to him.

Ginger83 · 06-10-2019 8:39pm

If you try to rent it to him he will just laugh at you

the_pen_turner · 06-10-2019 8:40pm

plow it

Farmer brought a digger onto my land

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