Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

KCross · 14-12-2017 10:21AM

ELM327 wrote: »

New leaf is not a competitor due to slower fast charging, outdated DC charging method (chademo - will not be expanded in the same way as CCS will) , and not enough range to be a third gen EV.

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW, so it doesn't matter that the Ioniq has the capability to charge faster, it can't because we don't have the chargers for it.

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most and most people who have a 40kWh Leaf won't care anyway as they will be using the rapids a lot less than an Ioniq driver.... so I'd say it is very much a competitor of the Ioniq.

The Chademo vs CCS thing is irrelevant too imo. I'd bet any new chargers will be triple heads. Chademo isn't outdated by the way, its just not the agreed standard for Europe going forward but its still just delivering electrons so it works fine!

unkel · 14-12-2017 10:26AM

KCross wrote: »

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW

I hope & expect we will have some much faster rapid chargers in this country by the time there will be say a few hundred new Leafs around. So then, yes Ioniq will charge much faster

KCross wrote: »

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most

It's a lot more than a few minutes. Ioniq is much more efficient at motorway speeds (and after all you need fast charging only really when you do long distances mainly on motorways), and will charge at 70kW vs Leaf at 45kW

So Ioniq will charge more than twice as fast per km travelled at 120km/h on a new charger. That is a huge difference

ELM327 · 14-12-2017 10:33AM

KCross wrote: »

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW, so it doesn't matter that the Ioniq has the capability to charge faster, it can't because we don't have the chargers for it.

An Ioniq charges faster than a leaf, which limited to 50kW. The new chargers coming out are 100-150kW CCS but Chademo is limited to 62.5kW and the leaf to 50.
Same speed now.. arguably the Ioniq's speed advantage is negligible currenyly but the EV industry changes quickly. Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

KCross wrote: »

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most and most people who have a 40kWh Leaf won't care anyway as they will be using the rapids a lot less than an Ioniq driver.... so I'd say it is very much a competitor of the Ioniq.

Slight advantage? 50kW compared to 70kW Ioniq is not a "slight" advantage. It's approx 40% faster again than the leaf!

KCross wrote: »

The Chademo vs CCS thing is irrelevant too imo. I'd bet any new chargers will be triple heads. Chademo isn't outdated by the way, its just not the agreed standard for Europe going forward but its still just delivering electrons so it works fine!

For now.. possible. But in 3 years chademo will be completely old hat.
Of course, I mean in Europe. We're not in the US or Asia so their standards are irrelevant to the discussion.
EG I can charge at 10kW single phase in the US but it means nothing here.

ELM327 · 14-12-2017 11:20AM

Are you selling it already? :P
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/172-hyundai-ioniq-full-electric-automatic/16994104

unkel · 14-12-2017 01:22PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Are you selling it already? :P
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/172-hyundai-ioniq-full-electric-automatic/16994104

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?

ELM327 wrote: »

Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

A station between Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Galway, Belfast, Sligo all of these to Dublin plus a station in Donegal and one in Kerry. That's just 9 stations with say initially 4 chargers each (expandable to 64 or something). That's all it takes.

commited · 14-12-2017 01:25PM

unkel wrote: »

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?

I wonder is it due to price from private seller being pretty significant?

unkel · 14-12-2017 01:29PM

No doubt a bit of a hurdle to pay a private seller that much. The car comes with a 5 year bumper to bumper manufacturers warranty though. There's no added value in buying from a Hyundai dealer in that respect.

Heres Johnny · 14-12-2017 01:36PM

I think it's just you miss the BMW. I'm in same boat I want to get out of my thirsty high tax pre 08 5 series and into something cheaper to run thinking my days of needing to have a large premium saloon were behind me.
No, I was wrong. Tried out many of the popular SUV models, Kia Sportage Hyundai Tucson and Ford Kuga. God I hated them all. 10 years newer than my car and all nasty things to sit in and drive.
Looking towards the 330e now again myself I think it's a great machine and it would suit me most days and i dont care if i use a 2.0 petrol engine on long runs I've been doing it with 3.0 for last 10 years. They took some drop in price

Ewan Hoosarmi · 14-12-2017 01:41PM

unkel wrote: »

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?

A station between Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Galway, Belfast, Sligo all of these to Dublin plus a station in Donegal and one in Kerry. That's just 9 stations with say initially 4 chargers each (expandable to 64 or something). That's all it takes.

That one has been for sale for at least a month now. I contacted him when it came up first. The guy is selling it to fund the purchase of a Model X :eek:.

He has no interest in a trade in, even if it would be a lot easier to sell on, and he's looking too much for it, IMHO.

Bigus · 14-12-2017 01:52PM

Come back and discuss further when you have the actual money from the sale of the Ioniq in your hand .

Scarce or not EVs are a still hard sell .

But your thinking is sound in theory,if you can get out now with little depreciation , Because when Hyundai upgrade the standard battery, original spec Ioniqs will suffer price wise.

Ewan Hoosarmi · 14-12-2017 02:09PM

Bigus wrote: »

Come back and discuss further when you have the actual money from the sale of the Ioniq in your hand .

Scarce or not EVs are a still hard sell .

But your thinking is sound in theory,if you can get out now with little depreciation , Because when Hyundai upgrade the standard battery, original spec Ioniqs will suffer price wise.

That's exectly my thinking. I was all set to buy an Ioniq new, but I think it will tank in value long term, when the bigger battery is available. I know the bigger battery will cost more, but second hand it will be worth more.

My thinking isn't the same for the new Leaf. It will be in the 'bigger battery' category when people look to buy a second hand one. The Ioniq will be in the same group as the 24/30 leafs at that stage. Even if it really isn't, if you know what I mean.

KCross · 14-12-2017 02:19PM

unkel wrote: »

I hope & expect we will have some much faster rapid chargers in this country by the time there will be say a few hundred new Leafs around. So then, yes Ioniq will charge much faster

It's a lot more than a few minutes. Ioniq is much more efficient at motorway speeds (and after all you need fast charging only really when you do long distances mainly on motorways), and will charge at 70kW vs Leaf at 45kW

So Ioniq will charge more than twice as fast per km travelled at 120km/h on a new charger. That is a huge difference

Im not denying the Leaf will only do 45kW vs the Ioniq at 70kW. But its not as simple as that. That advantage is not as simple as those two figures and thats the point Im making.

First off the Leaf has a bigger battery and will take the peak 45kW for longer. The Ioniq will be tapering much sooner than the Leaf.

The point made (that I was responding to) was that the Leaf wasn't a competitor because of "slow" charging. I believe thats just BS when you look at it from a practical point of view. The headline figure of 45 vs 70 isn't as clear cut at all.

Here's some stats:

On a 100kW charger the Ioniq goes from 10-94% (24kWh) in 30mins. Nylands figures. The Ioniq tapers to ~20kW+ for the last 15%.

The Leaf presumably will pull the full 45kW all the way to 80% and probably beyond, but lets say for arguments sake it stops the charge at 80%... that's 23kWh in the same timeframe as the super duper Ioniq!!!!

I bet the Leaf will also pull 45kW beyond 80% because it has the larger battery and by definition can take higher power for longer.

Do you still think the Ioniq is going to be twice as fast as the Leaf?! Not a chance, not even close.

The main reasons is quicker tapering on the Ioniq due to the smaller battery.

Now, if Hyundai bring out a 40kWh Ioniq then all bets are off. That will give it a significant rapid charging advantage over the Leaf but we shouldn't over state the figures and in particular because most people won't be using the rapids that often anyway with 40kWh+ batteries.

I agree the Ioniq will be more efficient at motorway speeds but again the advantage isn't as large as being suggested.... certainly not large enough to write the Leaf off as a competitor.

ELM327 wrote: »

An Ioniq charges faster than a leaf, which limited to 50kW. The new chargers coming out are 100-150kW CCS but Chademo is limited to 62.5kW and the leaf to 50.
Same speed now.. arguably the Ioniq's speed advantage is negligible currenyly but the EV industry changes quickly. Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

Why would a new CCS network obliterate Chademo? The Leaf is the most common EV in this country and with the new Leaf also being Chademo it is likely to remain that way for several years. Chademo is a long way from being obliterated and does not in any way make the Leaf uncompetitive.

ELM327 wrote: »

Slight advantage? 50kW compared to 70kW Ioniq is not a "slight" advantage. It's approx 40% faster again than the leaf!

Yes slight. See figures above.

ELM327 wrote: »

For now.. possible. But in 3 years chademo will be completely old hat.
Of course, I mean in Europe. We're not in the US or Asia so their standards are irrelevant to the discussion.
EG I can charge at 10kW single phase in the US but it means nothing here.

What do you mean by "old hat" though. Its not like an electron from CCS is better than one from Chademo! Chademo will also go to 100kW+ in its next iteration so the idea that its old technology is nonsense.

I'm not wedded to Chademo and I dont care if it lives or dies but again I'm just refuting that the new Leaf is not a competitor to the Ioniq because of Chademo or slower rapid speeds etc.... it very much is a competitor to the Ioniq, imo.

n97 mini · 14-12-2017 03:19PM

The 2019 Leaf (the 60kwh one) will come with 100 or 150kw Chademo ability, depending on where you read.

After reading some of the threads here I'm not sure I trust the meters on the sides of the efacec triple head FCPs. I've seen an Ioniq plugged in and drawing 70kw, and our own Leaf draw 52kw. According to the efacec website these put out 45kw max, so something isn't right.

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2017 03:28PM

Want to do a swap? eGolf for Ioniq?

unkel · 14-12-2017 03:52PM

Nobody charges their Ioniq to 94% unless they are doing the shopping / have plenty of time to spare.

KCross wrote: »

Do you still think the Ioniq is going to be twice as fast as the Leaf?! Not a chance, not even close.

Here is a realistic charging scenario. We drive from Dublin to Cork (distance 250km) at 120km/h with one stop in the middle at a new 150kW charging station

Let's put a realistic range of Ioniq at 164km and Leaf at 172km doing a real 120km/h in decent weather. Nobody has tested these cars side to side, but I don't think I will be far off here. You can quote me on this

This translates to consumption of 17kWh/100km for the more streamlined Ioniq vs 21.5kWh/100km for the new Leaf. Looks pretty realistic to me

This means Ioniq uses 21.3kWh to get to the charger and Leaf uses 26.9kWh. And let's say you want to arrive in Cork with 20% left. With usable battery sizes of 28kWh and 37kWh (?) This means Ioniq needs to take on 22.4kWh and Leaf 29.6kWh

This means both cars need to charge up to 80% at the charger, presumably both cars can do this at their own maximum charge rates of 45kW and 70kW respectively

22.4/70 = 19 minutes for Ioniq
29.6/45 = 39 minutes for Leaf

More than twice as quick as the Leaf. QED.

unkel · 14-12-2017 04:24PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Want to do a swap? eGolf for Ioniq?

eGolf is too small already for my 3 kids, but thanks for the offer. Great car the eGolf!

KCross · 14-12-2017 05:14PM

unkel wrote: »

Nobody charges their Ioniq to 94% unless they are doing the shopping / have plenty of time to spare.

Here is a realistic charging scenario. We drive from Dublin to Cork (distance 250km) at 120km/h with one stop in the middle at a new 150kW charging station

Let's put a realistic range of Ioniq at 164km and Leaf at 172km doing a real 120km/h in decent weather. Nobody has tested these cars side to side, but I don't think I will be far off here. You can quote me on this

This translates to consumption of 17kWh/100km for the more streamlined Ioniq vs 21.5kWh/100km for the new Leaf. Looks pretty realistic to me

This means Ioniq uses 21.3kWh to get to the charger and Leaf uses 26.9kWh. And let's say you want to arrive in Cork with 20% left. With usable battery sizes of 28kWh and 37kWh (?) This means Ioniq needs to take on 22.4kWh and Leaf 29.6kWh

This means both cars need to charge up to 80% at the charger, presumably both cars can do this at their own maximum charge rates of 45kW and 70kW respectively

22.4/70 = 19 minutes for Ioniq
29.6/45 = 39 minutes for Leaf

More than twice as quick as the Leaf. QED.

If ever I saw figure manipulation, that is it right there!

There are so many things wrong with your figures!

Have you proof read your figures?

Starting in Dublin at 100% and using 21.3 to get halfway.... that leaves 6.7kWh. You then said you are going to take on 22.4kWh to get to Cork with 20% left..... so you are going to charge the 28kWh Ioniq to 29.1kWh(6.7+22.4).... hmm.... :pac:

You believe a ~37kWh Leaf will only be able to do 8km's more @ 120kmh than the Ioniq! Seriously? Maybe you are right but its pure speculation and I'd have my doubts based on the tests done so far.

From Nylands test it showed the Ioniq tapering up and down to 70kW. So at 10% it was pulling 60kW and gradually ramped up to 70kW. It finally hit 70kW's at 79% and then it quickly (within 2-3%) tapered down to <50kW beyond that(it spent most of the 80-94% @ 22kW). It averaged 63kW over 20mins to get from 10-80%

Again, I don't question the 45 vs 70 headline figures but it doesn't translate in reality the way you state it mainly because of tapering and real world scenarios.

Of course if you have Leaf and Ioniq side by side charging at only their max rate then yes the Ioniq will be ~35% faster but in how many scenarios will that actually happen? The time difference for the majority of people will be small.

I could equally dream up some other scenario that favoured the Leaf (e.g. slower speed where the Leaf doesn't have to stop at all but the Ioniq does). The reality is the charge speed between Ioniq and new Leaf is not that big a deal.

Ultimately, the charge speed was used as a reason to say the new leaf isn't a competitor (thats primarily what Im refuting here).... do you believe the new leaf isn't a competitor because of Chademo and its 45kW max rate?

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2017 05:30PM

unkel wrote: »

eGolf is too small already for my 3 kids, but thanks for the offer. Great car the eGolf!

We could do a 6 month swap of cars like the American's like to do with their houses....

Might be idea for the forum....

Im sure Thierry14 would love to take the eGolf for a few months :P:P:P:P

ELM327 · 14-12-2017 05:48PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We could do a 6 month swap of cars like the American's like to do with their houses....

Might be idea for the forum....

Im sure Thierry14 would love to take the eGolf for a few months :P:P:P:P

Thierry seems to veer between tesla fanboy (like myself) and 330e admirer.

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2017 06:14PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Thierry seems to veer between tesla fanboy (like myself) and 330e admirer.

Never moved from eGolf hater :P:P

unkel · 14-12-2017 06:16PM

KCross wrote: »

so you are going to charge the 28kWh Ioniq to 29.1kWh(6.7+22.4).... hmm.... :pac:

Eh yeah, I went a little bit wrong there

Let's just say both cars charge up to 80% at the fast charger. We are in a hurry, right and we want to go to Cork as quickly as possible?

Ioniq would take 13 minutes, Leaf would take 26 minutes.

Again twice as fast.

I have seen from other posters that Ioniq can charge sustained at 70kW up to 80%. Perhaps Nyland got a bit less because it was winter in Norway? And yes, I do believe Leaf will have better range than Ioniq at real 120km/h speeds, but not much. The coefficient of drag is far worse which really counts at those speeds. The figures for driving at 100km/h would be far more favourable for Leaf.

KCross · 14-12-2017 06:38PM

unkel wrote: »

Eh yeah, I went a little bit wrong there

Let's just say both cars charge up to 80% at the fast charger. We are in a hurry, right and we want to go to Cork as quickly as possible?

Ioniq would take 13 minutes, Leaf would take 26 minutes.

Again twice as fast.

I have seen from other posters that Ioniq can charge sustained at 70kW up to 80%. Perhaps Nyland got a bit less because it was winter in Norway? And yes, I do believe Leaf will have better range than Ioniq at real 120km/h speeds, but not much. The coefficient of drag is far worse which really counts at those speeds. The figures for driving at 100km/h would be far more favourable for Leaf.

If the Ioniq only goes to 80% there is a good chance the Ioniq won't make it to Cork at all in which case the Ioniq will need to charge beyond 80% (i.e. 22kW) as nobody is going to take a trip like that and drive it within a whisker of turtle. So, you need to go beyond 80% at a 22kW rate so now your 13mins is much longer thus reducing the early gains you got at 70kW.... are you with me yet?!

If you just do a 45 vs 70 comparison it looks simple.... it doesn't work that way in practice because it has a smaller battery and it will taper.

unkel wrote: »

I have seen from other posters that Ioniq can charge sustained at 70kW up to 80%. Perhaps Nyland got a bit less because it was winter in Norway?

I don't think Nyland's test was wrong. As long as the temp of the battery is up to operating temp it doesn't matter that much what the outside temp is. He was on one of his road trips I think. In any case he got an average of 63kW so its still an impressive figure and hopefully the new Leaf will get it in a year or two.

unkel wrote: »

The figures for driving at 100km/h would be far more favourable for Leaf.

This is somewhat my point. You can take the worse case scenario for a Leaf (120kmh on motorway) and show maybe 10mins of a difference in charge time depending on circumstances but not everyone will be driving motorway.... the only motorway out of Cork is the one to Dublin.... driving any other direction its N roads where you'd be lucky to average 80kmh. The 45 vs 70 charge rate matters even less there because you might not even need to use the rapid with the Leaf being able to do 250-300km where the Ioniq will have to stop.... so you might gain in one scenario but you'll lose in others.... for every scenario you put up I'll put up another one where the Leaf will win.... its swings and roundabouts and I stick to my point its not that big a deal unless you are planning on doing this famed Cork - Dublin trip everyday.

Lets move back to your Op.... why are you selling this super efficient high charge rate Ioniq again?!

n97 mini · 14-12-2017 06:40PM

I would doubt the new Leaf will be as un-aerodynamic as the older one so I'd expect kwh per 100km figures to be much closer to the Ioniq.

Also, have we any FCPs (Tesla aside) in this country that are officially more than 45kw?

ELM327 · 14-12-2017 06:45PM

n97 mini wrote: »

I would doubt the new Leaf will be as un-aerodynamic as the older one so I'd expect kwh per 100km figures to be much closer to the Ioniq.

Also, have we any FCPs (Tesla aside) in this country that are officially more than 45kw?

Only the DBT fcp are limited to 43-45kW.
Most if not all of the efacec are 50kW.

KCross · 14-12-2017 06:45PM

n97 mini wrote: »

I would doubt the new Leaf will be as un-aerodynamic as the older one so I'd expect kwh per 100km figures to be much closer to the Ioniq.

It will be closer but it will still be off at higher speeds based on the real user tests so far.

n97 mini wrote: »

Also, have we any FCPs (Tesla aside) in this country that are officially more than 45kw?

No, is the answer. But they are supposed to be coming next year. Don't hold your breath but it should happen.

unkel · 14-12-2017 08:52PM

KCross wrote: »

If the Ioniq only goes to 80% there is a good chance the Ioniq won't make it to Cork at all

Yes it will. Based on above efficiencies Ioniq will arrive with 4% left, Leaf with 7% left

As for why? I'm only thinking some mad thoughts. Tesla seem to be getting production in order and our leader cros13 reckons deliveries in Ireland in Q1 '19 which might still be a little bit optimistic, but it could well be earlier than the some time in 2020 that I expected. I put down a deposit today.

unkel · 14-12-2017 08:56PM

KCross wrote: »

not everyone will be driving motorway.... the only motorway out of Cork is the one to Dublin.... driving any other direction its N roads where you'd be lucky to average 80kmh.

Half the countries population lives in the greater Dublin area and anytime any one of them needs to make a trip beyond the range of the car, every single one of them will go on the motorway. Except of course L drivers (joke)

But it's an interesting point. For people that rarely drive on motorways (or who choose to drive as slow as the trucks) that is a strong argument for a new Leaf over an Ioniq

KCross · 14-12-2017 09:07PM

unkel wrote: »

Half the countries population lives in the greater Dublin area and anytime any one of them needs to make a trip beyond the range of the car, every single one of them will go on the motorway. Except of course L drivers (joke)

But it's an interesting point. For people that rarely drive on motorways (or who choose to drive as slow as the trucks) that is a strong argument for a new Leaf over an Ioniq

Even for those in GDA I'd still say the longer range of the Leaf outweighs the perceived advantage of 70kW charging in the shorter range Ioniq.

I also wonder if you put the new Leaf on a 70kW charger would it actually pull 50kW rather than 45kW? The only reason it would get 45kW on our chargers today is because the max they have is 50kW and they are not 100% efficient.

Presumably a 70kW charger would be able to give the full 50kW that the car is rated for?

That would further close the gap with the Ioniq.... 50kW vs 63kW for a 10-80% charge. I guess we'll need Nyland to go on a road trip in the new Leaf next year.

KCross · 14-12-2017 09:19PM

unkel wrote: »

Yes it will. Based on above efficiencies Ioniq will arrive with 4% left, Leaf with 7% left

You'd arrive with just about 1kWh left. Thats only a few km's from hitting turtle. The Leaf hits turtle at 0.4kWh so lets assume the Ioniq is the same.

All it would take would be one shower of rain or a few imbalanced cells and your efficiency figure would be shot and you'd be calling a flatbed. Would you really do a Cork-Dublin and risk that!?

Realistically you'd need to add another 3kWh's or so at your half way point which will take an extra 8mins @22kW rate so now your 13mins is 21mins!

Taking the max headline rate is not real world.

Agent_47 · 14-12-2017 09:37PM

Range seems to be the issue for you Unkel, however I cannot see you getting top price for that EV. Would be rare to sell any car in Ireland for close to the price you paid.

I saw a Twizzy recently and thats the way to go. Twizzy in the city, ICE for that motorway

Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

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