Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

unkel

Shock horror! Now I got your attention

Toying with this mad idea the past few weeks. Due to a perfect storm, I bought my Ioniq last January at a very good price. Back then it wasn't known the car would be in short supply so I was able to negotiate a strong discount (after already getting €4k off for scrapping my end of life car). Ioniq is a great car for the money and costs virtually nothing once you have paid for the car, but here's the thing.

I would probably get pretty much the full price I paid for it back next January. I'm under no illusion that the car will remain depreciation free after that

Now if I sold it (for good money) and bought something else to keep for say 2 years (we are talking 2020 then), I would be able to buy another EV. Maybe a Tesla Model 3, Model S, long range Ioniq, or even something from VW group or BMW at that stage

In the meantime an eGolf would be too small and too expensive (family of 5), that rules out the Zoe and i3 too and the Leaf doesn't pass this household's aesthetics test So no EV then.

How about an Outlander PHEV? Should be able to pick up a '15 early next year for about £13k as there will be loads of them coming off lease in the UK. I would import the car myself. I know the battery is under 10kWh, they only charge at 3.3kW at the slow charger and they do have Chademo fast charging, but I don't intend to ever use it (as it takes a long time and the odd longer trip won't kill me having to use petrol). I do average miles, but many days just pottering about locally, school runs, short commute, family, shops, etc. Many days within the 35km. I know motor tax is €170

Practical questions:

1. I believe they are type 1 AC charging. I have a home charger and I use it currently with a permanently plugged in 15m long type 2 cable. I would be slow to having to buy a 15m type 1 cable (as type 1 is obsolete tech and this custom cable would be expensive to buy and virtually worthless after a few years). Can I use a water proof adapter, how much are they, any links?

2. How much would I be able to sell this 151 Outlander for in early 2020?

3. How long is the manufacturer's warranty on the Outlander, and how long on drivetrain / battery?

4. I'm interested in V2H technology. Is this readily usable with all cars using the chademo protocol?

5. Afterthought & quick edit. How much are the cheapest BMW 330e in the UK?

bp_me

330e were about the 20k sterling mark for one year old models. Not sure about absolute cheapest. Bit of a mine field finding one with the right spec (folding rear seats were an option for example!).

thierry14

bp_me wrote: »

330e were about the 20k sterling mark for one year old models. Not sure about absolute cheapest. Bit of a mine field finding one with the right spec (folding rear seats were an option for example!).

Some car for that price

I was looking at 330e M Sport for 27K all in vrt

Unkel you would be a fool not sell the Ioniq

Well played

unkel

Incredible value for money. Looks like I could land this Cat D 162D BMW 330e, and keep €5k in the bank after selling 171D Ioniq

Linky


I'm a big fan of BMWs. I have owned many of them. I haven't owned one in over a year. I miss them. It makes sense for me to buy one, doesn't it?

What's the battery capacity? Do they have CCS fast charging? What's the standard slow charge rate, 3.6kW or 7.2kW?

peposhi

Unkel... WTHeck ?!?
If you can recover the 25k and the PHEV is what you need I’d go for an Outlander.

The adapter is €190

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

Incredible value for money. Looks like I could land this Cat D 162D BMW 330e, and keep €5k in the bank after selling 171D Ioniq

Linky


I'm a big fan of BMWs. I have owned many of them. I haven't owned one in over a year. I miss them. It makes sense for me to buy one, doesn't it?

What's the battery capacity? Do they have CCS fast charging? What's the standard slow charge rate, 3.6kW or 7.2kW?

I would go with a 171

M Sport like below

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201708188446466?advertising-location=at_cars&year-from=2017&postcode=m52ty&model=3%20SERIES&page=1&aggregatedTrim=330e&price-from=500&make=BMW&fuel-type=Hybrid&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New

On the BMW forums they are mad about them

252bhp and with the electric power, they pull hard, instant power

You'd have some warranty too

I wouldn't run one without it

They are pretty complicated compared to a hybrid Lexus etc

unkel

thierry14 wrote: »

I would go with a 171

What's your reason for going 171 rather than 161 or 162? The one I linked was £17k, the one you linked was £25k.

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

What's your reason for going 171 rather than 161 or 162? The one I linked was £17k, the one you linked was £25k. I do appreciate your car has the sports suspension.

Extra warranty mainly and m Sport features etc

But 8k sterling is a big difference, even it was crashed or something

What a car for under 20k on the road here

I like the IS300h too

thierry14

Also worth a look

Mercedes c300h AMG

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710029870030?minimum-badge-engine-size=2.0&advertising-location=at_cars&year-from=2016&postcode=m52ty&page=1&price-from=500&make=MERCEDES-BENZ&fuel-type=Hybrid&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&zero-to-60=TO_8

Orebro

Jesus Unkel. I need someone to pick me up off the floor. And a stiff drink.

ELM327

You'll have no issue finding a buyer for your Ioniq.
There's only one for sale on donedeal in Ireland at the moment and its €28k for a 172 ex demo.
I'd say you could sell it for a profit.

KCross

@unkel, Im not getting the reasons for changing.

You are looking to sell and buy a PHEV yet by your own account you mainly just tootle around town. If you had a PHEV we'd be telling you to buy an Ioniq! It just doesn't make sense unless you have other motives.

Is it just for the thrill of selling it at the price you bought it for, or is it more because you are really a German fan and not so much an Asian one?

Purely from a money perspective selling the Ioniq doesn't make sense, imo.
The Ioniq is going to hold it value very well for the next 12 months. You buy a 330e and it will cost you thousands even if you do get a good deal.

I just don't get it! I think its the German vs Asian thing... it just doesn't sit well with you! Is that it?

You'll also be losing money on your free leecy deal with JustEnergy if you switch to a PHEV!

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

@unkel, Im not getting the reasons for changing.

You are looking to sell and buy a PHEV yet by your own account you mainly just tootle around town. If you had a PHEV we'd be telling you to buy an Ioniq! It just doesn't make sense unless you have other motives.

Is it just for the thrill of selling it at the price you bought it for, or is it more because you are really a German fan and not so much an Asian one?

Purely from a money perspective selling the Ioniq doesn't make sense, imo.
The Ioniq is going to hold it value very well for the next 12 months. You buy a 330e and it will cost you thousands even if you do get a good deal.

I just don't get it! I think its the German vs Asian thing... it just doesn't sit well with you! Is that it?

EDIT: You'll also be losing money on your free leecy deal with JustEnergy if you have a PHEV!

Thats a fair point too KCross

While the 330e is a far faster and more comfortable car, it's a complicated mess and outside warranty will live to up to its BMW name ( bring money withyou)

What unkel should really do is sell that Ioniq for big money and buy a reliable old banger and bank the remainder for a Tesla Model 3/60kWh highish performance EV from Autogiants when they come out soon

330e will depreciate like a rock

unkel

330e and Outlander have already depreciated like a rock!

KCross wrote: »

Is it just for the thrill of selling it at the price you bought it for, or is it more because you are really a German fan and not so much an Asian one?

Mostly the former. The thrill but mainly the money. The idea is to have much lower depreciation on the second hand PHEV over 2018 and 2019 than I would have on Ioniq. Running costs would be higher, but not very much, I would charge the car overnight every night, so the first whatever 35km or so are free (just checked the 330e and it's only 22km, that's a bit meh :rolleyes:). With the overall saving, I'd have enough money to buy a new car again in 2020

@thierry14 - yes it would make a lot of financial sense to go bangernomics (for a while, but I don't think my family will let me do that (again)

Shefwedfan

Outlander isn't much bigger than a Golf to be honest inside. Any of those Jeep/cars are actually quite small. Your Ioniq is probably as big.

When I looked around and wanted something bigger I ended up with Galaxy. Not much fun to drive but the space is great, I had 6 adults and a baby in it last week with loads of space.

Other option is buy old model 5 series petrol. My mate done that, kept it for 12-18month, sold it on at same price he bought it at, it had low mileage and full BMW service which he kept up....

Or an older Lexus car, he done the same on that, lost a few quid but saved it on juice....the lexus jeeps are out there but most of them have high tax which is a killer these days.....

Orebro

And what about the 8 year plan? Sounded good to me!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Mostly the former. The thrill but mainly the money. The idea is to have much lower depreciation on the second hand PHEV over 2018 and 2019 than I would have on Ioniq.

ok, money is always a good motivator.

What depreciation do you expect the Ioniq to have in the next 6 months? I can't imagine it will be much at all as supply is still constrained.

I'd wait until you hear that Ioniqs are on a boat on their way to Ireland, in large numbers, and then sell. You might find that the next batch don't have scrappage (or as much of it) because Hyundai now know they will sell them easily.... which would further hold up the value of your car.

Its the same as the new Leaf... there doesn't appear to be good PCP deals on the new Leaf and scrappage isn't there because they know they can sell them easy. Could happen to the next batch of Ioniq's too.

I think selling in the next 6 months is a bad idea as its effectively free motoring in the meantime and you said money was the big issue! Hold off until you get more data points to help you decide.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Outlander isn't much bigger than a Golf to be honest inside. Any of those Jeep/cars are actually quite small. Your Ioniq is probably as big.

I've never been in one but I was presuming it is at least the same size (same with the 330e). I don't need anything bigger, but anything smaller is out.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Other option is buy old model 5 series petrol. My mate done that, kept it for 12-18month, sold it on at same price he bought it at

Been there, done that. Many times

Orebro wrote: »

And what about the 8 year plan? Sounded good to me!

Yep it was a good plan and still is. The main reason behind the plan was that I expected fierce enough depreciation in the first few years, but that didn't happen

unkel

KCross wrote: »

What depreciation do you expect the Ioniq to have in the next 6 months? I can't imagine it will be much at all as supply is still constrained.

I don't know. But surely there will have been quite a bit of depreciation by the middle or late next year? There must be. Or maybe not as there are no competitors much on the market and it is still a reasonable range car with almost zero running costs.

Appreciate the tips. It's only a crazy thought in my mind at the moment. The range of the BMW is disappointing. That really is very much a compliance setup. At least with the Outlander you have some range and it's a big lumpy 4WD crossover, not a sleek lighter car like the BMW...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I don't know. But surely there will have been quite a bit of depreciation by the middle or late next year? There must be. Or maybe not as there are no competitors much on the market and it is still a reasonable range car with almost zero running costs.

A few possible scenarios....

Low(or zero depreciation for you)
- No sign of a 40kWh+ Ioniq next year. Maybe an announcement in 2H 2018 but no actual cars on the ground until 1H 2019
- Modest (a few hundred) delivery of 28kWh Ioniqs in 2018.
- Little or no scrappage

Low-Med Depreciation
- Decent supply of 28kWh Ioniq's, in which case it would be hard to convince someone to pay €25k for a 171 when they could have a 181 for €28k

High Depreciation
- Decent supply of 28kWh's with €4k scrappage
- 40kWh+ Ioniq's hitting Irish roads in 2H 2018.


My money would be on the first one.

It still depends really on how much depreciation you are willing to take on the Ioniq and guessing which one of the above scenarios comes true. You need a crystal ball first.

bp_me

unkel wrote: »

I don't know. But surely there will have been quite a bit of depreciation by the middle or late next year? There must be. Or maybe not as there are no competitors much on the market and it is still a reasonable range car with almost zero running costs.

Surely the 40kW leaf is a credible competitor that will start stealing sales from persons not willing to wait for the next boat of ioniqs.

Orebro

Very difficult to see how a 40Kwh Ioniq is going to appear anytime soon when they can't seem to make enough 28Kwh to satisfy global demand?

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

Very difficult to see how a 40Kwh Ioniq is going to appear anytime soon when they can't seem to make enough 28Kwh to satisfy global demand?

That and the fact they are supposed to be bringing other EV's to market as well (e.g. Kona) which will further split/reduce the supply of batteries to the Ioniq line.

unkel

Kona will be popular (indeed if they can deliver them here in numbers). These small crossovers are still very popular new cars here. I can't see a long range Ioniq on 182 plates. I'd say the new Leaf will be popular too.

I guess there is just very little happening in the EV market next year, is there? And then we are talking 2019. Not a lot happening there either? A bit depressing really, that realistically we won't see much improvement until 2020 here in Ireland (Model 3, VAG, BMW, what's with MB and others?)

ELM327

I firmly believe that the current Ioniq will be the best EV for sale until the end of 2019 here.
Battery supply issues have dried up supplies but they have also stopped other OEM from expanding or introducing a BEV range.

Short of a model S/X you won't have a better EV for the next 2 years. At that point you'll have owned the Ioniq for 3 years.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Kona will be popular (indeed if they can deliver them here in numbers). These small crossovers are still very popular new cars here. I can't see a long range Ioniq on 182 plates. I'd say the new Leaf will be popular too.

I guess there is just very little happening in the EV market next year, is there? And then we are talking 2019. Not a lot happening there either? A bit depressing really, that realistically we won't see much improvement until 2020 here in Ireland (Model 3, VAG, BMW, what's with MB and others?)

Yea, I think 2018 will be mainly about the new Leaf and the existing Ioniq if they can deliver. Not much else new stuff confirmed to hit our roads.

The rest will be PHEV's.

It is really 2019 before we see anything new (Kona, Niro, Stonic, long range Leaf and Ioniq, maybe some Model 3's).

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

I firmly believe that the current Ioniq will be the best EV for sale until the end of 2019 here.

Reviews of the new Leaf are good, I'd say it will be at least on a par with Ioniq and it has a better range but fast charging is slow

And don't discount the eGolf. A bit too small for a family of 5 and too expensive, but a very good car

Calahonda52

Yes please sell it ASAP

unkel

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Yes please sell it ASAP

So that you can buy it? Or so that I'll stop talking about it?

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

Kona will be popular (indeed if they can deliver them here in numbers). These small crossovers are still very popular new cars here. I can't see a long range Ioniq on 182 plates. I'd say the new Leaf will be popular too.

I guess there is just very little happening in the EV market next year, is there? And then we are talking 2019. Not a lot happening there either? A bit depressing really, that realistically we won't see much improvement until 2020 here in Ireland (Model 3, VAG, BMW, what's with MB and others?)

Its a disaster

Will be even worse when Tesla confirm mass production of Model 3 is not going to happen

Then you will see Autogiants back off with EV plans

I dont for a second believe VW are going to mass produce them

All bull**** from them

Its not looking good

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Reviews of the new Leaf are good, I'd say it will be at least on a par with Ioniq and it has a better range but fast charging is slow

And don't discount the eGolf. A bit too small for a family of 5 and too expensive, but a very good car

VW have confirmed no new e-golf
Its too expensive in a qashqai/i30/auris obsessed country. It's a good EV but it's at the wrong price point.

New leaf is not a competitor due to slower fast charging, outdated DC charging method (chademo - will not be expanded in the same way as CCS will) , and not enough range to be a third gen EV. And we don't get the Bolt here.

unkel wrote: »

So that you can buy it? Or so that I'll stop talking about it?

I'd guess the first one.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

New leaf is not a competitor due to slower fast charging, outdated DC charging method (chademo - will not be expanded in the same way as CCS will) , and not enough range to be a third gen EV.

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW, so it doesn't matter that the Ioniq has the capability to charge faster, it can't because we don't have the chargers for it.

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most and most people who have a 40kWh Leaf won't care anyway as they will be using the rapids a lot less than an Ioniq driver.... so I'd say it is very much a competitor of the Ioniq.

The Chademo vs CCS thing is irrelevant too imo. I'd bet any new chargers will be triple heads. Chademo isn't outdated by the way, its just not the agreed standard for Europe going forward but its still just delivering electrons so it works fine!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW

I hope & expect we will have some much faster rapid chargers in this country by the time there will be say a few hundred new Leafs around. So then, yes Ioniq will charge much faster

KCross wrote: »

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most

It's a lot more than a few minutes. Ioniq is much more efficient at motorway speeds (and after all you need fast charging only really when you do long distances mainly on motorways), and will charge at 70kW vs Leaf at 45kW

So Ioniq will charge more than twice as fast per km travelled at 120km/h on a new charger. That is a huge difference

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

The new Leaf will charge at the same speed as the Ioniq in this country because the rapid chargers are max'd at 50kW, so it doesn't matter that the Ioniq has the capability to charge faster, it can't because we don't have the chargers for it.

An Ioniq charges faster than a leaf, which limited to 50kW. The new chargers coming out are 100-150kW CCS but Chademo is limited to 62.5kW and the leaf to 50.
Same speed now.. arguably the Ioniq's speed advantage is negligible currenyly but the EV industry changes quickly. Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

KCross wrote: »

When new higher powered chargers are installed the Ioniq will have a slight advantage in rapid charging but it won't be much. A few mins at most and most people who have a 40kWh Leaf won't care anyway as they will be using the rapids a lot less than an Ioniq driver.... so I'd say it is very much a competitor of the Ioniq.

Slight advantage? 50kW compared to 70kW Ioniq is not a "slight" advantage. It's approx 40% faster again than the leaf!

KCross wrote: »

The Chademo vs CCS thing is irrelevant too imo. I'd bet any new chargers will be triple heads. Chademo isn't outdated by the way, its just not the agreed standard for Europe going forward but its still just delivering electrons so it works fine!

For now.. possible. But in 3 years chademo will be completely old hat.
Of course, I mean in Europe. We're not in the US or Asia so their standards are irrelevant to the discussion.
EG I can charge at 10kW single phase in the US but it means nothing here.

ELM327

Are you selling it already? :P
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/172-hyundai-ioniq-full-electric-automatic/16994104

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Are you selling it already? :P
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/172-hyundai-ioniq-full-electric-automatic/16994104

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?

ELM327 wrote: »

Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

A station between Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Galway, Belfast, Sligo all of these to Dublin plus a station in Donegal and one in Kerry. That's just 9 stations with say initially 4 chargers each (expandable to 64 or something). That's all it takes.

commited

unkel wrote: »

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?

I wonder is it due to price from private seller being pretty significant?

unkel

No doubt a bit of a hurdle to pay a private seller that much. The car comes with a 5 year bumper to bumper manufacturers warranty though. There's no added value in buying from a Hyundai dealer in that respect.

Heres Johnny

I think it's just you miss the BMW. I'm in same boat I want to get out of my thirsty high tax pre 08 5 series and into something cheaper to run thinking my days of needing to have a large premium saloon were behind me.
No, I was wrong. Tried out many of the popular SUV models, Kia Sportage Hyundai Tucson and Ford Kuga. God I hated them all. 10 years newer than my car and all nasty things to sit in and drive.
Looking towards the 330e now again myself I think it's a great machine and it would suit me most days and i dont care if i use a 2.0 petrol engine on long runs I've been doing it with 3.0 for last 10 years. They took some drop in price

Ewan Hoosarmi

unkel wrote: »

Mine's a Silver 171

That ad is up 9 days, wonder why nobody has bought it?



A station between Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Galway, Belfast, Sligo all of these to Dublin plus a station in Donegal and one in Kerry. That's just 9 stations with say initially 4 chargers each (expandable to 64 or something). That's all it takes.

That one has been for sale for at least a month now. I contacted him when it came up first. The guy is selling it to fund the purchase of a Model X :eek:.

He has no interest in a trade in, even if it would be a lot easier to sell on, and he's looking too much for it, IMHO.

Bigus

Come back and discuss further when you have the actual money from the sale of the Ioniq in your hand .

Scarce or not EVs are a still hard sell .

But your thinking is sound in theory,if you can get out now with little depreciation , Because when Hyundai upgrade the standard battery, original spec Ioniqs will suffer price wise.

Ewan Hoosarmi

Bigus wrote: »

Come back and discuss further when you have the actual money from the sale of the Ioniq in your hand .

Scarce or not EVs are a still hard sell .

But your thinking is sound in theory,if you can get out now with little depreciation , Because when Hyundai upgrade the standard battery, original spec Ioniqs will suffer price wise.

That's exectly my thinking. I was all set to buy an Ioniq new, but I think it will tank in value long term, when the bigger battery is available. I know the bigger battery will cost more, but second hand it will be worth more.

My thinking isn't the same for the new Leaf. It will be in the 'bigger battery' category when people look to buy a second hand one. The Ioniq will be in the same group as the 24/30 leafs at that stage. Even if it really isn't, if you know what I mean.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I hope & expect we will have some much faster rapid chargers in this country by the time there will be say a few hundred new Leafs around. So then, yes Ioniq will charge much faster


It's a lot more than a few minutes. Ioniq is much more efficient at motorway speeds (and after all you need fast charging only really when you do long distances mainly on motorways), and will charge at 70kW vs Leaf at 45kW

So Ioniq will charge more than twice as fast per km travelled at 120km/h on a new charger. That is a huge difference

Im not denying the Leaf will only do 45kW vs the Ioniq at 70kW. But its not as simple as that. That advantage is not as simple as those two figures and thats the point Im making.


First off the Leaf has a bigger battery and will take the peak 45kW for longer. The Ioniq will be tapering much sooner than the Leaf.


The point made (that I was responding to) was that the Leaf wasn't a competitor because of "slow" charging. I believe thats just BS when you look at it from a practical point of view. The headline figure of 45 vs 70 isn't as clear cut at all.

Here's some stats:

On a 100kW charger the Ioniq goes from 10-94% (24kWh) in 30mins. Nylands figures. The Ioniq tapers to ~20kW+ for the last 15%.

The Leaf presumably will pull the full 45kW all the way to 80% and probably beyond, but lets say for arguments sake it stops the charge at 80%... that's 23kWh in the same timeframe as the super duper Ioniq!!!!

I bet the Leaf will also pull 45kW beyond 80% because it has the larger battery and by definition can take higher power for longer.

Do you still think the Ioniq is going to be twice as fast as the Leaf?! Not a chance, not even close.

The main reasons is quicker tapering on the Ioniq due to the smaller battery.

Now, if Hyundai bring out a 40kWh Ioniq then all bets are off. That will give it a significant rapid charging advantage over the Leaf but we shouldn't over state the figures and in particular because most people won't be using the rapids that often anyway with 40kWh+ batteries.


I agree the Ioniq will be more efficient at motorway speeds but again the advantage isn't as large as being suggested.... certainly not large enough to write the Leaf off as a competitor.

ELM327 wrote: »

An Ioniq charges faster than a leaf, which limited to 50kW. The new chargers coming out are 100-150kW CCS but Chademo is limited to 62.5kW and the leaf to 50.
Same speed now.. arguably the Ioniq's speed advantage is negligible currenyly but the EV industry changes quickly. Our network is already outdated and all it will take to obliterate Chademoe is a competent network with 100kW CCS only stations with multiple CCS chargers (Like the recent newspaper reports indicated).

Why would a new CCS network obliterate Chademo? The Leaf is the most common EV in this country and with the new Leaf also being Chademo it is likely to remain that way for several years. Chademo is a long way from being obliterated and does not in any way make the Leaf uncompetitive.

ELM327 wrote: »

Slight advantage? 50kW compared to 70kW Ioniq is not a "slight" advantage. It's approx 40% faster again than the leaf!

Yes slight. See figures above.

ELM327 wrote: »

For now.. possible. But in 3 years chademo will be completely old hat.
Of course, I mean in Europe. We're not in the US or Asia so their standards are irrelevant to the discussion.
EG I can charge at 10kW single phase in the US but it means nothing here.

What do you mean by "old hat" though. Its not like an electron from CCS is better than one from Chademo! Chademo will also go to 100kW+ in its next iteration so the idea that its old technology is nonsense.

I'm not wedded to Chademo and I dont care if it lives or dies but again I'm just refuting that the new Leaf is not a competitor to the Ioniq because of Chademo or slower rapid speeds etc.... it very much is a competitor to the Ioniq, imo.

n97 mini

The 2019 Leaf (the 60kwh one) will come with 100 or 150kw Chademo ability, depending on where you read.

After reading some of the threads here I'm not sure I trust the meters on the sides of the efacec triple head FCPs. I've seen an Ioniq plugged in and drawing 70kw, and our own Leaf draw 52kw. According to the efacec website these put out 45kw max, so something isn't right.

Shefwedfan

Want to do a swap? eGolf for Ioniq?

unkel

Nobody charges their Ioniq to 94% unless they are doing the shopping / have plenty of time to spare.

KCross wrote: »

Do you still think the Ioniq is going to be twice as fast as the Leaf?! Not a chance, not even close.

Here is a realistic charging scenario. We drive from Dublin to Cork (distance 250km) at 120km/h with one stop in the middle at a new 150kW charging station

Let's put a realistic range of Ioniq at 164km and Leaf at 172km doing a real 120km/h in decent weather. Nobody has tested these cars side to side, but I don't think I will be far off here. You can quote me on this

This translates to consumption of 17kWh/100km for the more streamlined Ioniq vs 21.5kWh/100km for the new Leaf. Looks pretty realistic to me

This means Ioniq uses 21.3kWh to get to the charger and Leaf uses 26.9kWh. And let's say you want to arrive in Cork with 20% left. With usable battery sizes of 28kWh and 37kWh (?) This means Ioniq needs to take on 22.4kWh and Leaf 29.6kWh

This means both cars need to charge up to 80% at the charger, presumably both cars can do this at their own maximum charge rates of 45kW and 70kW respectively

22.4/70 = 19 minutes for Ioniq
29.6/45 = 39 minutes for Leaf

More than twice as quick as the Leaf. QED.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Want to do a swap? eGolf for Ioniq?

eGolf is too small already for my 3 kids, but thanks for the offer. Great car the eGolf!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Nobody charges their Ioniq to 94% unless they are doing the shopping / have plenty of time to spare.



Here is a realistic charging scenario. We drive from Dublin to Cork (distance 250km) at 120km/h with one stop in the middle at a new 150kW charging station

Let's put a realistic range of Ioniq at 164km and Leaf at 172km doing a real 120km/h in decent weather. Nobody has tested these cars side to side, but I don't think I will be far off here. You can quote me on this

This translates to consumption of 17kWh/100km for the more streamlined Ioniq vs 21.5kWh/100km for the new Leaf. Looks pretty realistic to me

This means Ioniq uses 21.3kWh to get to the charger and Leaf uses 26.9kWh. And let's say you want to arrive in Cork with 20% left. With usable battery sizes of 28kWh and 37kWh (?) This means Ioniq needs to take on 22.4kWh and Leaf 29.6kWh

This means both cars need to charge up to 80% at the charger, presumably both cars can do this at their own maximum charge rates of 45kW and 70kW respectively

22.4/70 = 19 minutes for Ioniq
29.6/45 = 39 minutes for Leaf

More than twice as quick as the Leaf. QED.

If ever I saw figure manipulation, that is it right there!

There are so many things wrong with your figures!


Have you proof read your figures?

Starting in Dublin at 100% and using 21.3 to get halfway.... that leaves 6.7kWh. You then said you are going to take on 22.4kWh to get to Cork with 20% left..... so you are going to charge the 28kWh Ioniq to 29.1kWh(6.7+22.4).... hmm.... :pac:


You believe a ~37kWh Leaf will only be able to do 8km's more @ 120kmh than the Ioniq! Seriously? Maybe you are right but its pure speculation and I'd have my doubts based on the tests done so far.


From Nylands test it showed the Ioniq tapering up and down to 70kW. So at 10% it was pulling 60kW and gradually ramped up to 70kW. It finally hit 70kW's at 79% and then it quickly (within 2-3%) tapered down to <50kW beyond that(it spent most of the 80-94% @ 22kW). It averaged 63kW over 20mins to get from 10-80%



Again, I don't question the 45 vs 70 headline figures but it doesn't translate in reality the way you state it mainly because of tapering and real world scenarios.

Of course if you have Leaf and Ioniq side by side charging at only their max rate then yes the Ioniq will be ~35% faster but in how many scenarios will that actually happen? The time difference for the majority of people will be small.

I could equally dream up some other scenario that favoured the Leaf (e.g. slower speed where the Leaf doesn't have to stop at all but the Ioniq does). The reality is the charge speed between Ioniq and new Leaf is not that big a deal.


Ultimately, the charge speed was used as a reason to say the new leaf isn't a competitor (thats primarily what Im refuting here).... do you believe the new leaf isn't a competitor because of Chademo and its 45kW max rate?

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

eGolf is too small already for my 3 kids, but thanks for the offer. Great car the eGolf!

We could do a 6 month swap of cars like the American's like to do with their houses....

Might be idea for the forum....

Im sure Thierry14 would love to take the eGolf for a few months :P:P:P:P

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We could do a 6 month swap of cars like the American's like to do with their houses....

Might be idea for the forum....

Im sure Thierry14 would love to take the eGolf for a few months :P:P:P:P

Thierry seems to veer between tesla fanboy (like myself) and 330e admirer.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Thierry seems to veer between tesla fanboy (like myself) and 330e admirer.

Never moved from eGolf hater :P:P