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Ryanair Pilots put it up to O'Leary

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Comments

  • #32
    enricoh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭enricoh


    I know a pilot that was with Ryanair, said he was treated like crap but was paid extremely well and all airlines wanted to sign Ryanair pilots so there was nothing better for their cv.
    So no I don't support them, just unions trying to control a company to it's detriment - ala buses n trains


  • #33
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    peasant wrote: »
    It's not just the Irish pilots that want to strike...pilots from bases in Italy, Portugal and Germany are threatening the same.
    The Italians are supposed to start tomorrow.

    Italian pilots have tried to pull this stunt on numerous occasions and have called it off at the last minute.


  • #34
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,944 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Italians are lazy.......they'll strike at the drop of a hat.

    (joking folks)


  • #35
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    enricoh wrote: »
    just unions trying to control a company to it's detriment - ala buses n trains

    the unions are not trying to control the company, which needs a union to insure the workers get a good deal, just like they don't control buses and trains. management control the companies and the unions bargain collectively on behalf of the staff, that's how it works. this is basic stuff.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #36
    DivingDuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭DivingDuck


    As someone who was extremely distressed by the prospect of disruption to their travel plans during Ryanair's last rostering issue, I have nothing but sympathy for the passengers whose Christmas plans could be destroyed by this.

    I was just going on a trip and booked them because they were cheap and the times convenient, but the people who fly with Ryanair over Christmas often have no alternative as they're in large part people on small wages and often with family overseas. I'm baffled by the thought that people are enjoying the prospect of some lad from Slovakia or Lithuania working in an Irish factory not getting home to see his family, or that some kids from Tallaght are going to be disappointed they aren't getting their one holiday this year.

    Ryanair pilots don't have the easiest job, but they're certainly making more money than most of the people whose holidays they're considering ruining this Christmas.


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  • #37
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    FTA69 wrote: »
    In fairness the same argument you're applying to them was used back then, "if you don't like the conditions then work somewhere else, you're a grown free man with agency and choice" etc etc "you knew the pay and conditions when you took the job" etc etc. That same argument is now being applied to workers today whose wages have stagnated and who face now added pressures of insecurity, precarity, fewer rights at work than before and also rising rents etc.

    If workers in any industry for whatever reason want to negotiate collectively then that is their right.

    Its their right alright but that doesn't it mean its the right thing to do. Unions are generally inefficient to the economy. If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

    I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck. There is a happy medium in there somewhere between all unions and no unions but in my opinion, less unions is better for everybody.

    I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair. If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change. Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.


  • #38
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    how many of the cabin crew will be paid strike pay. They won't be working. The planes won't be in the air. They won't be paid.
    Classy act by the Pilots.


  • #39
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    Guess I'll be driving home for Christmas...


  • #40
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Hazys wrote: »
    Its their right alright but that doesn't it mean its the right thing to do. Unions are generally inefficient to the economy. If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

    I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck.

    I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair. If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change. Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.

    I don't see how unions are "inefficient to the economy", inefficient to capitalist accumulating vast quantities of money maybe but not necessarily inefficient per se. I would argue that the constant stagnation of real wages, rising rents and collapse/privatisation of public services are of far more threat to the well being of society than employers not having carte blanche to treat people however they please.

    Again, your argument is the same as it always was, "you knew the conditions", "work somewhere else", "the country will collapse". These exact same arguments were made in the 19th century about organised labour. And people had choice back then too, they could work wherever they please for whomever they liked. So what's the difference now? People weren't slaves back in the early 20th century either like. "Leaving the job" didn't change bugger all, workers acting collectively did. And because of that we have weekends, holiday, health and safety and a raft of other things people take for granted now while moaning about unions.

    I trust you also oppose business federations and chambers of commerce etc? After all capitalists conspiring to stagnate wages and chip away at workers rights is surely inefficient for the economy?


  • #41
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions are generally inefficient to the economy.

    far from it. they are efficient to the economy by insuring a good wage, which = greater taxation, which means more funding for services. they also stop employers from behaving badly, insuring a good happy work force, insuring good productivity. the removal of rights, downgrading of conditions and the threats to our public services from privatization are the issue, not unions.
    Hazys wrote: »
    If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

    incorrect. strikes are rare in most countries including ireland. nobody is held to ransom by a strike, and if every industry had a union there would not be a strike every day. good management and good negotiation in most industries would mean strikes would be as they are now, a rare occurrence.
    Hazys wrote: »
    I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck.

    apart from the odd case unions do not act like bullies. the demands at luas were reasonable in the staff's opinion and they were for the most part met. unions in all industries would not suck one bit. it might for those who are ideaologically opposed to workers standing up for themselves, but for the workers and the economy it would be the best thing to happen.
    Hazys wrote: »
    I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair.

    because it's not up to them to do so and it would be unlikely to solve the issues. they leave and business would continue as usual.
    Hazys wrote: »
    If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change.

    the thing is, it likely won't.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.

    the terms no longer meet modern expectations it seems. so it's now time for change.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #42
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    C'mon Unions very much so cause inefficiencies to the economy, its silly to say they don't have any. Unions encourage pay structures that favor more seniority over talent, making the industry as a whole less efficient. Unions protect dying industries and block more innovative and efficient industries from replacing them. Unions can create monopolies. Unions cause strikes which impacts the economy. Unions restrict the amount of employees that can work in a certain industry, restricting the efficiency of the industry, etc.

    I agree there are needs for Unions but not blanket across the board in all industries and a Ryanair pilot union seems to me as not the first place that would need it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


  • #43
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Unions don't protect dying industries at all. Steel is still being made, manufacturing still has to go on - the only difference is now that it occurs in countries where workers are treated like dogsh*t usually in China or in other Asian countries where subcontractors working for household brands exploit people. Many of these 'innovative' service industries we see today are simply the same precarious, casual, low-paid sh*te we had a hundred years before. Amazon and Sports Direct have people giving birth in the jacks at work and Deliveroo try to pretend that a 20 year old delivering burgers for below minimum wage is some sort of self-contained entrepreneur. Thankfully they're unionising too and fair f*cks to them.

    Are Ryanair pilots the worst treated workers in the world? No. But they are a group of employees who demand to be treated collectively but are being prevented from doing so by an egomaniac who sh*ts on his employees at every turn. Good luck to them.


  • #44
    enricoh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭enricoh


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unions are not trying to control the company, which needs a union to insure the workers get a good deal, just like they don't control buses and trains. management control the companies and the unions bargain collectively on behalf of the staff, that's how it works. this is basic stuff.

    The unions don't control bust eireann and iarnrod eireann? Well, this is certainly news to me! I'll take your word for it so


  • #45
    rgace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭rgace


    I am sure O'Leary respects what they are doing, pounce on him when he is weak to extract the best deal.

    The shoe has been on the other foot many times down through the years.


  • #46
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #47
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Hazys wrote: »
    C'mon Unions very much so cause inefficiencies to the economy, its silly to say they don't have any.

    everything has inefficientsy. enifficientsy is part of life. we all have it. however, unions bring good to the economy, as they counter-balance what doesn't work with pure capitalism and free market economics. they regulate in a way.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions encourage pay structures that favor more seniority over talent, making the industry as a whole less efficient.

    seniority receiving greater pay is a fact of life. it happens a plenty with non-unionised industries as well. seniority will equal more experience, which will usually bring greater talent. talent with less experience in some cases will not be as good to an employer, as talent with years of experience. employers will often go with experience over pure talent.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions protect dying industries and block more innovative and efficient industries from replacing them.

    no they don't. this is a myth. dying industries die and unions cannot protect them. they don't block industries from replacing them, demand does. an industry will only replace if there is demand for what that industry will provide.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions can create monopolies.

    they can't. monopolies are a natural occurrence. they occur where there is little demand for a service, the best example being where a service is provided as it is deemed to be necessary for the greater good.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions cause strikes which impacts the economy.

    so be it. strikes also happen where no unions are involved, such as the strike at ryanair if it happens.
    Hazys wrote: »
    Unions restrict the amount of employees that can work in a certain industry, restricting the efficiency of the industry, etc.

    the companies where this happens are just as much, if not more responsible for that as they will often be happy with this as it is cheaper for them to not employ more staff. they save a lot of money by giving the existing staff extra money for working their days off, compared to employing more staff and the extra expence that goes with it. it has risks, such as when a dispute arises and the staff cannot work those days, but the savings make those risks worth facing.
    Hazys wrote: »
    I agree there are needs for Unions but not blanket across the board in all industries and a Ryanair pilot union seems to me as not the first place that would need it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

    we won't have to agree to disagree i'm afraid, as you have not put forward any argument as to why there should not be a pilot, or any other union in ryanair. the evidence seems to be that unions are very much needed in that company to give a counter-balance in terms of bringing better, fairer terms and conditions to the workers.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #48
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    enricoh wrote: »
    The unions don't control bust eireann and iarnrod eireann? Well, this is certainly news to me! I'll take your word for it so

    correct, the unions don't control bus eireann and iarnrod eireann. both of those companies have management, who make the day to day decisians. the unions simply bargain on behalf of their members, where decisians may negatively effect their members terms and conditions.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #49
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    When the trains, luas and buses go out they'll hopefully be able to drag in the IALPA on top of it all.
    The government will be powerless to resist. payrises all round.
    Total land and air superiority.


  • #50
    Specialun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Specialun


    pilots job is a tough job. skilled and highly educated workers

    stark contrast to bus eireann or irish rail staff


  • #51
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Specialun wrote: »
    pilots job is a tough job. skilled and highly educated

    stark contrast to bus eireann or irish rail staff


    bus eireann and irish raill drivers would be skilled. not pilot level sure, but still skilled. anyway they are irrelevant to this topic.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #52
    Specialun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Specialun


    end of the road wrote: »
    bus eireann and irish raill drivers would be skilled. not pilot level sure, but still skilled. anyway they are irrelevant to this topic.


    haha..yeah skilled alright. as skilled as my dog


  • #53
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Specialun wrote: »
    haha..yeah skilled alright. as skilled as my dog


    they are a billion times more skilled then your dog.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #54
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭emo72


    can michael not run the business and be nice to his staff? a little bit of class wouldnt go amiss in fairness. when did it become the norm to be so boorish? michael o leary doesnt behave very nice. its like he watched wall street in the 80s and based his persona on gordon gekko.
    not cool michael, not cool.


  • #55
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    end of the road wrote: »
    they are a billion times more skilled then your dog.

    You don't know that, maybe he has one of those dogs that can fetch his slippers or roll over or give the paw on command.


  • #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ryanair Pilots put two fingers up to their customers


  • #57
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Can I ask where you got the 64k figure from ?


  • #58
    Adyx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Adyx


    I'll start caring about other people's job conditions when they start caring about mine. The general public couldn't give a **** about unions, pay, bonuses etc except when it affects them. (Which is fine with me, just don't expect me to care about your picket lines).


  • #59
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    The people arguing that they should strike at a quieter time, thereby undermining their own action, seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a strike is.


  • #60
    Minderbinder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭Minderbinder


    Deleted User wrote: »
    end of the road wrote: »
    i heard on the radio today that pilots at other bases are looking at strike action as well. it's not just those in dublin.

    ryan air is exactly like bus eireann and irish rail in terms of strike action as any strike has the potential for gain or loss by striking workers.

    And to Hell with those who pay their wages - the flying public.

    To be fair, the flying public who choose Ryanair don’t give a fiddlers about Ryanair staff. They choose Ryanair because it’s cheap and it’s cheap partly because the conditions for staff are not very good.

    By choosing Ryanair people are paying the wages of some of the lowest paid, poorly treated, unprotected staff in the industry. I don’t see for the life of me why Ryanair staff would be sympathetic to the customers who are happy to save their own money at the staffs’ expense.


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  • #61
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,944 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Specialun wrote: »
    haha..yeah skilled alright. as skilled as my dog

    No, thats Luas drivers you're thinking of.


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