Ryanair Pilots put it up to O'Leary

Muahahaha

Dublin based Ryanair pilots have served notice of a one day strike on the 20th of December. In a ballot 94% of the pilots asked favoured industrial action so that they can be recognised by a union and collectively negotiate their wages and conditions.

The majority of pilots intending to strike are captains. A plane cannot legally fly without a captain so lots of flights will be grounded at huge cost to the airline and a big inconvenience to their passengers right before Xmas.

This dispute has now developed into a game of hardball between Michael OLeary and the pilots. He is on record as calling them glorified taxi drivers and has treated them with contempt throughout the years. OLeary is a major shareholder in Ryanair so needs to sort this out asap. On the other hand he has hung his hat on never dealing with unions. If the airline suffers substantial losses and reputational damage due to the Dublin strike (and others in Europe) then he will quickly come under pressure from other major shareholders to either do a u-turn or resign.

So AH do you support the Ryanair pilots strike? Must say I do and Im getting a large buttered popcorn to watch how this one plays out.

Guy:Incognito

They did take the job with the pay and conditions laid out in front of them.....

TomSweeney

Im against it cos I don't want my flights to be cancelled over Christmas :mad:

Bob Harris

Muahahaha wrote: »

This dispute has now developed into a game of hardball between Michael OLeary and the pilots. He is on record as calling them glorified taxi drivers and has treated them with contempt throughout the years. OLeary is a major shareholder in Ryanair so needs to sort this out asap. On the other hand he has hung his hat on never dealing with unions. If the airline suffers substantial losses and reputational damage due to the Dublin strike (and others in Europe) then he will quickly come under pressure from other major shareholders to either do a u-turn or resign.

So AH do you support the Ryanair pilots strike? Must say I do and Im getting a large buttered popcorn to watch how this one plays out.

I would like to think that O'Leary would like to sort this out to avoid major inconvenience to Ryanair passengers rather than protecting the value of his shareholding.

Enjoy the popcorn.

Gatling

Muahahaha wrote: »

Dublin based Ryanair pilots have served notice of a one day strike on the 20th of December. In a ballot 94% of the pilots asked favoured industrial action so that they can be recognised by a union and collectively negotiate their wages and conditions

But less than 50% of actual staff were balloted

They did it knowing full well that it would damage the holiday plans of thousands of people. They're c*nts. Stick it to O' Leary, not other people.

RayM

Deleted User wrote: »

They're c*nts. Stick it to O' Leary, not other people.

They have stuck it to him. And it's up to him to decide whether it's worth inconveniencing people over.

suicide_circus

RayM wrote: »

They have stuck it to him. And it's up to him to decide whether it's worth inconveniencing people over.

The pilots for their part have decided that it is

RhubarbCrumble

No, I bloody don't because my Xmas plans are hanging in the balance now.

Cordell

Yeah, I'm sure they didn't plan to strike just in the right moment so to inconvenience the largest amount of passengers and inflict as much damage as possible, it is just a coincidence. They can strike in February or any other quiet month to show some consideration to passengers, but no.

blanch152

Was the ballot conducted within the requirements of the Industrial Relations Act?

Is it therefore a valid ballot?

Has sufficient notice been given?

I fully support the right of any group of workers to take industrial action, once it is within the law and under the constraints laid down by the law. If that is the case, then yes, I support the workers. If they have conducted an illegal ballot and/or are taking illegal industrial action, then I do not support them.

Hazys

I don't get it, why do they need to form a union? Unions originally were created to prevent factory workers with no other options being used as slave labor 100 years ago.

If the pilots don't like the work conditions that they agreed to with Ryanair, why can't they just find a new job with one of the 100 other airlines operating around Europe?

If pilots start leaving Ryanair en masse, Ryanair will be forced to change their tune like every other workplace.

Arcade_Tryer

Deleted User wrote: »

They did it knowing full well that it would damage the holiday plans of thousands of people. They're c*nts. Stick it to O' Leary, not other people.

Awww the poor people.

Muahahaha

Gatling wrote: »

But less than 50% of actual staff were balloted

AFAIK it is even less than 50%, perhaps about 30%. But in real terms its the important 30% in that the majority are captains (all flights legally need a captain to operate) and unusually they are also employed directly by Ryanair rather than being employed by agencies. These are captains who have been with Ryanair for a long time, well before the use of agency pilots became the norm.

FTA69

Hazys wrote: »

I don't get it, why do they need to form a union? Unions originally were created to prevent factory workers with no other options being used as slave labor 100 years ago.

If the pilots don't like the work conditions that they agreed to with Ryanair, why can't they just find a new job with one of the 100 other airlines operating around Europe?

If pilots start leaving Ryanair en masse, Ryanair will be forced to change their tune like every other workplace.

If those factory workers didn't like their conditions why didn't they just leave and get new jobs in the hundreds of other factories that were there? Then the bosses would have changed their tune!

Unions were set up to fight for workers, end of story. Funnily enough the people who be moaning about workers rarely have the same level of criticism for employer's federations who frequently lobby for wages to be lowered and for them to be given the rights to sack people whenever and for whatever. Capital is organised to advance its interests and workers need to do the same. The decline in organised labour is one of the biggest reasons we have the spiralling inequality we have now - people at the top making billions in profit while real wages stagnate and prices and rents go up. B*llocks to that. I feel for anyone inconvenienced over this (I may well be one of them) but the fault lies with O'Leary for his intransigence and bull-headed refusal to deal with his workforce collectively.

Only today a construction campaign I'm involved with won around £200k in unpaid holiday pay because the concrete workers threatened a stoppage on a major skyscraper site after a period of organisation and agitation. Great news all around for me today.

Stephen15

Muahahaha wrote: »

AFAIK it is even less than 50%, perhaps about 30%. But in real terms its the important 30% in that the majority are captains (all flights legally need a captain to operate) and unusually they are also employed directly by Ryanair rather than being employed by agencies. These are captains who have been with Ryanair for a long time, well before the use of agency pilots became the norm.

A long time as in what 10 years, 20 years perhaps even more. We all know that most of Ryanair's growth has come over the last 20 years. So most captains would be likely working for agencies.

end of the road

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They did take the job with the pay and conditions laid out in front of them.....

they did but those conditions now need to change. they were never good enough in the first place.
this couldn't happen to a nicer company, it has been years in the making in my opinion.

Hazys wrote: »

I don't get it, why do they need to form a union? Unions originally were created to prevent factory workers with no other options being used as slave labor 100 years ago.

If the pilots don't like the work conditions that they agreed to with Ryanair, why can't they just find a new job with one of the 100 other airlines operating around Europe?

If pilots start leaving Ryanair en masse, Ryanair will be forced to change their tune like every other workplace.

it's not their job to go and work for another company, when they could improve the conditions in ryanair, which will benefit future generations. pilots have been leaving ryanair apparently, but it's not working in terms of changing the company. the unions are necessary to fight for workers rights, as what they were set up to do. they are also necessary to insure any company can not engage in practices that don't meet high quality working expectations.

CeilingFly

Gatling wrote: »

But less than 50% of actual staff were balloted

Just over 26% of pilots in Dublin are members of ialpa. Less than 50% of this 26% voted.

So less than 13% of pilots actually voted and how many voted to strike?

As usual, impact trade union are behind this.

The pilots may find to their cost that Ryanair is not like bus eireann or Irish rail.

Ralf and Florian

Glad that someones sticking it to that arrogant cnunt.

FTA69

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

Glad that someones sticking it to that arrogant cnunt.

I mean we should support it for that alone.

end of the road

CeilingFly wrote: »

Just over 26% of pilots in Dublin are members of ialpa. Less than 50% of this 26% voted.

So less than 13% of pilots actually voted and how many voted to strike?

As usual, impact trade union are behind this.

The pilots may find to their cost that Ryanair is not like bus eireann or Irish rail.

i heard on the radio today that pilots at other bases are looking at strike action as well. it's not just those in dublin.

ryan air is exactly like bus eireann and irish rail in terms of strike action as any strike has the potential for gain or loss by striking workers.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

i heard on the radio today that pilots at other bases are looking at strike action as well. it's not just those in dublin.

ryan air is exactly like bus eireann and irish rail in terms of strike action as any strike has the potential for gain or loss by striking workers.

And to Hell with those who pay their wages - the flying public.

Hazys

FTA69 wrote: »

If those factory workers didn't like their conditions why didn't they just leave and get new jobs in the hundreds of other factories that were there? Then the bosses would have changed their tune!

TBF workers in those days had no options like i said, these pilots could leave tomorrow and get a new job with a new airline.

Unions were set up to fight for workers, end of story. Funnily enough the people who be moaning about workers rarely have the same level of criticism for employer's federations who frequently lobby for wages to be lowered and for them to be given the rights to sack people whenever and for whatever. Capital is organised to advance its interests and workers need to do the same. The decline in organised labour is one of the biggest reasons we have the spiralling inequality we have now - people at the top making billions in profit while real wages stagnate and prices and rents go up. B*llocks to that. I feel for anyone inconvenienced over this (I may well be one of them) but the fault lies with O'Leary for his intransigence and bull-headed refusal to deal with his workforce collectively.

Only today a construction campaign I'm involved with won around £200k in unpaid holiday pay because the concrete workers threatened a stoppage on a major skyscraper site after a period of organisation and agitation. Great news all around for me today.

Fair enough on the other two points on the value of unions in general but from what i read in the aviation forum, people are of the opinion of this is much as a union power grab as it is to caring about the pilots welfare. Unions are needed in certain industries as government regulation is enough to protect them but i'm not of the opinion that every industry needs unions and in this instance, i'm still skeptical.

NIMAN

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

Glad that someones sticking it to that arrogant cnunt.

.....by ruining the Xmas travel plans of a lot of innocent travellers.

I am always baffled by how much support these striking workers get from the general public, when they deliberately go out of their way to inflict as much disruption on the general public to get at their employer.

They always pick big days to strike.

FTA69

Hazys wrote: »

Fair enough on the other two points on the value of unions in general but from what i read in the aviation forum, people are of the opinion of this is much as a union power grab as it is to caring about the pilots welfare. Unions are needed in certain industries as government regulation is enough to protect them but i'm not of the opinion that every industry needs unions and in this instance, i'm still skeptical.

In fairness the same argument you're applying to them was used back then, "if you don't like the conditions then work somewhere else, you're a grown free man with agency and choice" etc etc "you knew the pay and conditions when you took the job" etc etc. That same argument is now being applied to workers today whose wages have stagnated and who face now added pressures of insecurity, precarity, fewer rights at work than before and also rising rents etc.

If workers in any industry for whatever reason want to negotiate collectively then that is their right.

Don Kiddick

FTA69 wrote: »

If those factory workers didn't like their conditions why didn't they just leave and get new jobs in the hundreds of other factories that were there? Then the bosses would have changed their tune!

Unions were set up to fight for workers, end of story. Funnily enough the people who be moaning about workers rarely have the same level of criticism for employer's federations who frequently lobby for wages to be lowered and for them to be given the rights to sack people whenever and for whatever. Capital is organised to advance its interests and workers need to do the same. The decline in organised labour is one of the biggest reasons we have the spiralling inequality we have now - people at the top making billions in profit while real wages stagnate and prices and rents go up. B*llocks to that. I feel for anyone inconvenienced over this (I may well be one of them) but the fault lies with O'Leary for his intransigence and bull-headed refusal to deal with his workforce collectively.

Only today a construction campaign I'm involved with won around £200k in unpaid holiday pay because the concrete workers threatened a stoppage on a major skyscraper site after a period of organisation and agitation. Great news all around for me today.

Yeah....but can you fly a plane?!?

end of the road

NIMAN wrote: »

.....by ruining the Xmas travel plans of a lot of innocent travellers.

I am always baffled by how much support these striking workers get from the general public, when they deliberately go out of their way to inflict as much disruption on the general public to get at their employer.

They always pick big days to strike.

of course they always pick big days. only an idiot would pick a small day for a strike.
the reason workers will get some support is they don't strike for nothing. if they are on strike it's for good reason, even if some may not agree with the reasons, after all those staff won't be paid for the duration of the strike.

737max

Muahahaha wrote: »

AFAIK it is even less than 50%, perhaps about 30%. But in real terms its the important 30% .

That's the sort of solidarity that typifies all that is wrong with the modern Union movement.

NIMAN

end of the road wrote: »

of course they always pick big days. only an idiot would pick a small day for a strike.
the reason workers will get some support is they don't strike for nothing. if they are on strike it's for good reason, even if some may not agree with the reasons, after all those staff won't be paid for the duration of the strike.

Well I'm just saying, if they ruined my plans to get home for Xmas, they wouldn't be receiving any support from me.

FTA69

Don Kiddick wrote: »

Yeah....but can you fly a plane?!?

I'll give it a bash like. I was a dab hand at Ace Combat on the PS1.

peasant

It's not just the Irish pilots that want to strike...pilots from bases in Italy, Portugal and Germany are threatening the same.
The Italians are supposed to start tomorrow.

enricoh

I know a pilot that was with Ryanair, said he was treated like crap but was paid extremely well and all airlines wanted to sign Ryanair pilots so there was nothing better for their cv.
So no I don't support them, just unions trying to control a company to it's detriment - ala buses n trains

Stephen15

peasant wrote: »

It's not just the Irish pilots that want to strike...pilots from bases in Italy, Portugal and Germany are threatening the same.
The Italians are supposed to start tomorrow.

Italian pilots have tried to pull this stunt on numerous occasions and have called it off at the last minute.

NIMAN

Italians are lazy.......they'll strike at the drop of a hat.

(joking folks)

end of the road

enricoh wrote: »

just unions trying to control a company to it's detriment - ala buses n trains

the unions are not trying to control the company, which needs a union to insure the workers get a good deal, just like they don't control buses and trains. management control the companies and the unions bargain collectively on behalf of the staff, that's how it works. this is basic stuff.

DivingDuck

As someone who was extremely distressed by the prospect of disruption to their travel plans during Ryanair's last rostering issue, I have nothing but sympathy for the passengers whose Christmas plans could be destroyed by this.

I was just going on a trip and booked them because they were cheap and the times convenient, but the people who fly with Ryanair over Christmas often have no alternative as they're in large part people on small wages and often with family overseas. I'm baffled by the thought that people are enjoying the prospect of some lad from Slovakia or Lithuania working in an Irish factory not getting home to see his family, or that some kids from Tallaght are going to be disappointed they aren't getting their one holiday this year.

Ryanair pilots don't have the easiest job, but they're certainly making more money than most of the people whose holidays they're considering ruining this Christmas.

Hazys

FTA69 wrote: »

In fairness the same argument you're applying to them was used back then, "if you don't like the conditions then work somewhere else, you're a grown free man with agency and choice" etc etc "you knew the pay and conditions when you took the job" etc etc. That same argument is now being applied to workers today whose wages have stagnated and who face now added pressures of insecurity, precarity, fewer rights at work than before and also rising rents etc.

If workers in any industry for whatever reason want to negotiate collectively then that is their right.

Its their right alright but that doesn't it mean its the right thing to do. Unions are generally inefficient to the economy. If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck. There is a happy medium in there somewhere between all unions and no unions but in my opinion, less unions is better for everybody.

I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair. If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change. Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.

737max

how many of the cabin crew will be paid strike pay. They won't be working. The planes won't be in the air. They won't be paid.
Classy act by the Pilots.

WoollyRedHat

Guess I'll be driving home for Christmas...

FTA69

Hazys wrote: »

Its their right alright but that doesn't it mean its the right thing to do. Unions are generally inefficient to the economy. If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck.

I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair. If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change. Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.

I don't see how unions are "inefficient to the economy", inefficient to capitalist accumulating vast quantities of money maybe but not necessarily inefficient per se. I would argue that the constant stagnation of real wages, rising rents and collapse/privatisation of public services are of far more threat to the well being of society than employers not having carte blanche to treat people however they please.

Again, your argument is the same as it always was, "you knew the conditions", "work somewhere else", "the country will collapse". These exact same arguments were made in the 19th century about organised labour. And people had choice back then too, they could work wherever they please for whomever they liked. So what's the difference now? People weren't slaves back in the early 20th century either like. "Leaving the job" didn't change bugger all, workers acting collectively did. And because of that we have weekends, holiday, health and safety and a raft of other things people take for granted now while moaning about unions.

I trust you also oppose business federations and chambers of commerce etc? After all capitalists conspiring to stagnate wages and chip away at workers rights is surely inefficient for the economy?

end of the road

Hazys wrote: »

Unions are generally inefficient to the economy.

far from it. they are efficient to the economy by insuring a good wage, which = greater taxation, which means more funding for services. they also stop employers from behaving badly, insuring a good happy work force, insuring good productivity. the removal of rights, downgrading of conditions and the threats to our public services from privatization are the issue, not unions.

Hazys wrote: »

If every industry had a Union, there would be strikes everyday, company and governments would be held to ransom consistently and the economy would suffer for everybody.

incorrect. strikes are rare in most countries including ireland. nobody is held to ransom by a strike, and if every industry had a union there would not be a strike every day. good management and good negotiation in most industries would mean strikes would be as they are now, a rare occurrence.

Hazys wrote: »

I take your point that we definitely need some unions to protect worker's rights but a lot of times Unions can act like bully's with unreasonable demands i.e. the Luas Strike but if we had Unions in every industry that would suck.

apart from the odd case unions do not act like bullies. the demands at luas were reasonable in the staff's opinion and they were for the most part met. unions in all industries would not suck one bit. it might for those who are ideaologically opposed to workers standing up for themselves, but for the workers and the economy it would be the best thing to happen.

Hazys wrote: »

I'm still struggling to see why these pilots can't find jobs with other airlines if they are unhappy with Ryanair.

because it's not up to them to do so and it would be unlikely to solve the issues. they leave and business would continue as usual.

Hazys wrote: »

If they start leaving and Ryanair can't replace them with adequate replacements, that will force Ryanair to change.

the thing is, it likely won't.

Hazys wrote: »

Its not like these pilots didn't know what there were getting into when they signed up. Company's workplace ratings are published on multiple sites like Glassdoor and Monster and not to mention, i can only imagine they talk to pilots from other airlines on a daily basis.

the terms no longer meet modern expectations it seems. so it's now time for change.

Hazys

C'mon Unions very much so cause inefficiencies to the economy, its silly to say they don't have any. Unions encourage pay structures that favor more seniority over talent, making the industry as a whole less efficient. Unions protect dying industries and block more innovative and efficient industries from replacing them. Unions can create monopolies. Unions cause strikes which impacts the economy. Unions restrict the amount of employees that can work in a certain industry, restricting the efficiency of the industry, etc.

I agree there are needs for Unions but not blanket across the board in all industries and a Ryanair pilot union seems to me as not the first place that would need it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

FTA69

Unions don't protect dying industries at all. Steel is still being made, manufacturing still has to go on - the only difference is now that it occurs in countries where workers are treated like dogsh*t usually in China or in other Asian countries where subcontractors working for household brands exploit people. Many of these 'innovative' service industries we see today are simply the same precarious, casual, low-paid sh*te we had a hundred years before. Amazon and Sports Direct have people giving birth in the jacks at work and Deliveroo try to pretend that a 20 year old delivering burgers for below minimum wage is some sort of self-contained entrepreneur. Thankfully they're unionising too and fair f*cks to them.

Are Ryanair pilots the worst treated workers in the world? No. But they are a group of employees who demand to be treated collectively but are being prevented from doing so by an egomaniac who sh*ts on his employees at every turn. Good luck to them.

enricoh

end of the road wrote: »

the unions are not trying to control the company, which needs a union to insure the workers get a good deal, just like they don't control buses and trains. management control the companies and the unions bargain collectively on behalf of the staff, that's how it works. this is basic stuff.

The unions don't control bust eireann and iarnrod eireann? Well, this is certainly news to me! I'll take your word for it so

rgace

I am sure O'Leary respects what they are doing, pounce on him when he is weak to extract the best deal.

The shoe has been on the other foot many times down through the years.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

end of the road

Hazys wrote: »

C'mon Unions very much so cause inefficiencies to the economy, its silly to say they don't have any.

everything has inefficientsy. enifficientsy is part of life. we all have it. however, unions bring good to the economy, as they counter-balance what doesn't work with pure capitalism and free market economics. they regulate in a way.

Hazys wrote: »

Unions encourage pay structures that favor more seniority over talent, making the industry as a whole less efficient.

seniority receiving greater pay is a fact of life. it happens a plenty with non-unionised industries as well. seniority will equal more experience, which will usually bring greater talent. talent with less experience in some cases will not be as good to an employer, as talent with years of experience. employers will often go with experience over pure talent.

Hazys wrote: »

Unions protect dying industries and block more innovative and efficient industries from replacing them.

no they don't. this is a myth. dying industries die and unions cannot protect them. they don't block industries from replacing them, demand does. an industry will only replace if there is demand for what that industry will provide.

Hazys wrote: »

Unions can create monopolies.

they can't. monopolies are a natural occurrence. they occur where there is little demand for a service, the best example being where a service is provided as it is deemed to be necessary for the greater good.

Hazys wrote: »

Unions cause strikes which impacts the economy.

so be it. strikes also happen where no unions are involved, such as the strike at ryanair if it happens.

Hazys wrote: »

Unions restrict the amount of employees that can work in a certain industry, restricting the efficiency of the industry, etc.

the companies where this happens are just as much, if not more responsible for that as they will often be happy with this as it is cheaper for them to not employ more staff. they save a lot of money by giving the existing staff extra money for working their days off, compared to employing more staff and the extra expence that goes with it. it has risks, such as when a dispute arises and the staff cannot work those days, but the savings make those risks worth facing.

Hazys wrote: »

I agree there are needs for Unions but not blanket across the board in all industries and a Ryanair pilot union seems to me as not the first place that would need it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

we won't have to agree to disagree i'm afraid, as you have not put forward any argument as to why there should not be a pilot, or any other union in ryanair. the evidence seems to be that unions are very much needed in that company to give a counter-balance in terms of bringing better, fairer terms and conditions to the workers.

end of the road

enricoh wrote: »

The unions don't control bust eireann and iarnrod eireann? Well, this is certainly news to me! I'll take your word for it so

correct, the unions don't control bus eireann and iarnrod eireann. both of those companies have management, who make the day to day decisians. the unions simply bargain on behalf of their members, where decisians may negatively effect their members terms and conditions.

737max

When the trains, luas and buses go out they'll hopefully be able to drag in the IALPA on top of it all.
The government will be powerless to resist. payrises all round.
Total land and air superiority.

Specialun

pilots job is a tough job. skilled and highly educated workers

stark contrast to bus eireann or irish rail staff

end of the road

Specialun wrote: »

pilots job is a tough job. skilled and highly educated

stark contrast to bus eireann or irish rail staff

bus eireann and irish raill drivers would be skilled. not pilot level sure, but still skilled. anyway they are irrelevant to this topic.